Current Trial Steven Avery - Making a Murderer

[Michaels]

I am up to episode 5 of the netflix doco Making a Murderer and have found it compelling viewing.

What is everyones take on the Steven Avery case vs the Manitowoc County?

For those who haven't seen it, a quick summary:

-Steven Avery served 18 years in prison for a wrongful sexual assualt conviction in 1985.
-He was exonerated in 2003 with better DNA testing available it proved it wasn't him who commited the crime.
-After his release, he filed a civil lawsuit for $36 million in damages against Manitowoc County, its sheriff, and its district attorney, but in 2005, while his suit was pending, Avery was arrested for the murder of Wisconsin photographer Teresa Halbach. He was convicted in 2007 and sentenced to life imprisonment without parole.

From the court footage, interviews, statements and evidence as seen in Making a Murderer I honestly couldnt see how it wasnt obvious that he was framed. The defense team picked the case apart with ease but it didn't seem to matter.

some of the more interesting points the defense made which fully convinced me Steven was framed:
-Despite being accused of Stabbing Teresa in the stomach and slitting her throat on his bed, there is no blood to be found anywhere.

-The police searched his tiny garage and shed where he lived 7-8 times and found absolutley nothing. then all of a sudden officers involved in the previous wrong conviction turn up and the car key is magically found in a open, obvious spot. but somehow no one had seen it 7-8 times previously.

-The burn hole containing the bones story doesnt add up. It was seemingly proven that the bones had definitely been moved at one point. why would someone who commited the murder burn the bones miles away and then move it to their own backyard?

-Teresa' voicemails were deleted from her phone by someone, no one ever followed that up.

-One of the officers who was involved in the previous wrong conviction radio called in to do a check on number plates on the missing car which were confirmed, but the car in question wasnt found until a couple of days later.

there is no doubt a lot more to consider and while i do have a few more episodes to watch I did a bit of reading on it all this morning and i reckon he has been framed.

 

[kaiserchief13]

Something unusual has certainly happened with the key and the number plate, however if Avery didn't do it, who did?

Quite sickening seeing his nephew being found guilty though. There was zero evidence on him.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

A shockingly, shockingly biased "documentary" that starts with a contention then fills in what fits.

Basically? The guy is guilty as sin. It's an open and shut case. He did it.

I'd start with these:

http://thegenerationwhypodcast.com/steven-avery-166-generation-why/size/2

http://thegenerationwhypodcast.com/steven-avery-2-167-generation-why/size/2

 

[Greg Poonsores]

Avery was involved and once the police knew he was involved somehow they needed to make it stick.

So they turned the minimal evidence they had into an avalanche.

The nephew certainly was not involved but I think the other brother and friend who supposedly went hunting are involved somehow and they were ignored to smash Avery.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Avery was involved and once the police knew he was involved somehow they needed to make it stick.

So they turned the minimal evidence they had into an avalanche.

The nephew certainly was not involved but I think the other brother and friend who supposedly went hunting are involved somehow and they were ignored to smash Avery.

Perhaps.

We know that there was no stabbing or throat slashing inside the trailer or shooting inside the garage though.

It seems obvious that the bones were burned at the quarry, transported to the property in the burn barrel and dumped into the burn pit. Seems incredible to me that the killer would move the bones to behind his own home in an open burn pit when he already had them off site. Seems incredibly stupid to me to leave the vehicle on your own lot.

Plausible Avery did it scenario. Killed her outside or out of sight somehow, put her body in her own car (her hair and blood in the back), drove her to the quarry, burned her body.

If he killed her inside the garage or trailer, they would have found some DNA. The place had not been forensically cleaned. It was in its natural dirty state. Aside from that a person who laboured over forensically cleaning something, would not leave the vehicle he had driven untouched.

We then have the issue of no fingerprints. So he's smart enough to clean all fingerprints out of the vehicle or wear gloves, but not smart enough to clean visible blood from a cut finger.

It's almost as though he went to some effort to conceal the crime, then made decisions that directly implicated himself.

Why were LEO's who we were told had been excluded from the investigation constantly involved and constantly going to the property?

If Avery is guilty, then with the level of corruption, negligence and incompetence displayed by the County Sheriff's office, they almost deserve for him to walk free.

I hear plenty of 'don't knows' and 'don't recall' answers on the prosecution side and haven't seen any evidence that the defence was not able to come up with a plausible response to.

 

[plastikman]

Regardless of whether he is guilty or innocent, Avery is a utter piece of filth. Don't know why people in Australia give a flying * one way or the other about him.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Regardless of whether he is guilty or innocent, Avery is a utter piece of filth. Don't know why people in Australia give a flying **** one way or the other about him.

Yeah he is probably not a great bloke. However he did spend 18 years in jail for nothing and another 10 and counting where the evidence was up for debate.

People are involved because they are worried the criminal justice system could do this to anybody.

 

[King_Steele]

I think he's innocent.

 

[Michaels]

A shockingly, shockingly biased "documentary" that starts with a contention then fills in what fits.

Basically? The guy is guilty as sin. It's an open and shut case. He did it.

I'd start with these:

http://thegenerationwhypodcast.com/steven-avery-166-generation-why/size/2

http://thegenerationwhypodcast.com/steven-avery-2-167-generation-why/size/2

Won't load on my work computer, can you provide some dot points on how they figure he is guilty?

the main things that stick out to me:

The Prosecuters seemingly changed their angle from being Teresa stabbed and throat slit in the bedroom to being shot 5-6 times in the garage. Neither of the places have any blood spatters, DNA, nothing. that alone should be enough to not charge them with murder. Keep in mind, Steven and Brendan are two very SIMPLE men. Very doubtful that either of them could have completley cleaned the crime scene leaving no blood anywhere. Just not possible.

The trailor he lived in was tiny, how on earth do that many 'trained' officers not see a key on a lanyard sitting on the floor? not to mention the fact the key suddenly appeared after Manitowoc cops were on the site (6-7 days later) and they shouldnt have been. The key apparently has no other DNA on it other than Steven's. So they are implying that Steven completley scrubbed the key to remove all DNA but left his own on there. I know i said he is a simple person, but no one is that stupid.

Realistically that key if it was completley untouched as the police said it was, should have had Stevens DNA, Teresas DNA and anyone else in here family who has touched that key DNA on it as well. but there was nothing else on there but Stevens.


The blood vial with Stevens blood in it which had clearly been tampered with. not many people had access to that.


I know there was many more hours of footage that wasnt in the doco from the court room with evidence etc, but based on the things we saw and were told, I just can't understand how anyone could say he was 100% guilty of the crime.

They didnt even interview her brother, ex boyfriend, current boyfriend, the two blokes who 'went hunting' but were the only ones who could vouch for each other. just isnt right.

 

[M Malice]

have just watched 9 episodes of this doco- couldn't wait to watch the last one to post this, (will watch it sometime this week) too angry/frustrated.
surely there is reasonable doubt hell i'm not even "comfortably satisfied".
i have been a juror on 4 criminal trials and if you need 4 days to decide a verdict to me that means reasonable doubt.

how the hell could that young dorsey fella be convicted with no DNA of him or the victim in the bedroom after a frenzied rape and knife assault is mind boggling.
i have also had a bit to do with intellectually impaired children and he exhibits all the qualities of a classic low IQ socially naive kid, that confession was bull s**t.

 

[Lockyer24]

have just watched 9 episodes of this doco- couldn't wait to watch the last one to post this, (will watch it sometime this week) too angry/frustrated.
surely there is reasonable doubt hell i'm not even "comfortably satisfied".
i have been a juror on 4 criminal trials and if you need 4 days to decide a verdict to me that means reasonable doubt.

how the hell could that young dorsey fella be convicted with no DNA of him or the victim in the bedroom after a frenzied rape and knife assault is mind boggling.
i have also had a bit to do with intellectually impaired children and he exhibits all the qualities of a classic low IQ socially naive kid, that confession was bull s**t.

F-ing disgrace he is locked up

 

[M Malice]

F-ing disgrace he is locked up

yep. makes you wonder as i always have how many innocent people are locked up or executed, IMO a lot more than we would like to believe.

i for one do not buy this theory that the police/prosecutors/system would not frame anyone, power corrupts it has been shown to be the case time and time again all over the world.
http://cad.sagepub.com/content/32/4/518.short

 

[van peebles]

Regardless of whether he is guilty or innocent, Avery is a utter piece of filth. Don't know why people in Australia give a flying **** one way or the other about him.

Yeah he is probably not a great bloke. However he did spend 18 years in jail for nothing and another 10 and counting where the evidence was up for debate.

People are involved because they are worried the criminal justice system could do this to anybody.

yep. makes you wonder as i always have how many innocent people are locked up or executed, IMO a lot more than we would like to believe.

i for one do not buy this theory that the police/prosecutors/system would not frame anyone, power corrupts it has been shown to be the case time and time again all over the world.
http://cad.sagepub.com/content/32/4/518.short

A lot of american Sheriff officers are actually voted in and budgetted for a period of term.
The complete cockup of the first case in which over 10 years a detective reminded them constantly they had the wrong man,was typical of a lot of LEA's in the states.They hate being wrong and told their work is dodgy and go to any lengths{proven time and again}to protect the case they've made.
In the 2nd case they put up a front of "we will get another agency to collect evidence".And even stuffed this up when local detectives were the "finders" of most evidence against Avery after places had been previously searched.
The finding of the "key" ,DNA only 'under" the bonnet slide, after up to seven previous searches by another agency is enough to create reasonable doubt in any case.
Unfortunately american justice doesnt work that way.
Ive always said never trust an american law enforcement agent or agency.The facts dont lie.

 

[Michaels]

Hopefully the new lawyer can get them both free. She seems pretty confident. Apparently she has had the blood found in the car tested to prove that it was old blood (proving it was from that vial of Stevens blood that was clearly tampered with) and not from a fresh cut.

Think she is also doing another sweep of the room with that light that shows up all fluids on walls, sheets, floors etc. cause it will prove there is no blood splatters anywhere.

hope she gets them out of there ASAP.

 

[Jobe Watson]

how the hell could that young dorsey fella be convicted with no DNA of him or the victim in the bedroom after a frenzied rape and knife assault is mind boggling.
i have also had a bit to do with intellectually impaired children and he exhibits all the qualities of a classic low IQ socially naive kid, that confession was bull s**t.

Whether you think Avery is guilty or not is one thing... personally I'm leaning towards innocent but wouldn't say for certain either way. But what happened to Brendan was an absolute disgrace, and a severe miscarriage of justice.

Very, very similar to the story of the Central Park Five (and anyone who enjoyed Making a Murder should watch the doco on this case too; it's also on Netflix) - young, scared, impressionable kids who confessed to brutal crimes that they did not commit under intensive questioning. They were also convicted based solely on their confessions with no DNA evidence supporting it, but were eventually exonerated.

 

[M Malice]

Whether you think Avery is guilty or not is one thing... personally I'm leaning towards innocent but wouldn't say for certain either way. But what happened to Brendan was an absolute disgrace, and a severe miscarriage of justice.

Very, very similar to the story of the Central Park Five (and anyone who enjoyed Making a Murder should watch the doco on this case too; it's also on Netflix) - young, scared, impressionable kids who confessed to brutal crimes that they did not commit under intensive questioning. They were also convicted based solely on their confessions with no DNA evidence supporting it, but were eventually exonerated.

thanks for the tip will watch it.

 

[TC41]

I'm undecided after watching the series, but I agree there seemed to be reasonable doubt of SA's guilt based on what the doco showed us.
The saddest thing overall, is how broken the 'legal' (not justice) system is in the US.
from this article
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/01/25/dead-certainty

'The petition points to another weakness of “Making a Murderer”: it is far more concerned with vindicating wronged individuals than with fixing the system that wronged them. The series presents Avery’s case as a one-off—a preposterous crusade by a grudge-bearing county sheriff’s department to discredit and imprison a nemesis. (Hence the ad-hominem attacks the show has inspired.) But you don’t need to have filed a thirty-six-million-dollar suit against law enforcement to be detained, denied basic rights, and have evidence planted on your person or property. Among other things, simply being black can suffice. While Avery’s story is dramatic, every component of it is sadly common. Seventy-two per cent of wrongful convictions involve a mistaken eyewitness. Twenty-seven per cent involve false confessions. Nearly half involve scientific fraud or junk science. More than a third involve suppression of evidence by police.


Those statistics reflect systemic problems. Eyewitness testimony is dangerously persuasive to juries, yet it remains admissible in courts almost without caveat. Some interrogation methods are more likely than others to produce false confessions, yet there are no national standards; fewer than half of states require interrogations to be videotaped, and all of them allow interrogators to lie to suspects. With the exception of DNA evidence (which emerged from biology, not criminology), forensic tests are laughably unscientific; no independent entity exists to establish that such tests are reliable before their results are admissible as evidence.'

 

[TC41]

thanks for the tip will watch it.

'The Staircase' is another one.

 

[Catastic82]

When you have this many concerns over the conduct and edvidence gathered in this trial you can only come to the conclusion that there isn't enough reasonable doubt to convict

The legal system is a joke in America

 

[ossie_21]

Big news! Steven Avery's conviction is another debate, but pretty much everything about Brendan's was wrong. Still can't get how Avery was convicted of killing her in the garage & Dassey for killing her in the bedroom.

A retrial for this would be very difficult to find guilty again, surely

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/re...s/news-story/030e2d80f6ee157074a8419f3c348ecf

 

[Michaels]

Big news! Steven Avery's conviction is another debate, but pretty much everything about Brendan's was wrong. Still can't get how Avery was convicted of killing her in the garage & Dassey for killing her in the bedroom.

A retrial for this would be very difficult to find guilty again, surely

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/re...s/news-story/030e2d80f6ee157074a8419f3c348ecf

great news for the Dassey family.

it was disgusting the way those 'officers' went about interviewing him. any normal human with an ounce of common sense could see what was happening based on what we saw from the series. no idea how they managed to find him guilty as well after all of that.

don't reckon they would have much ground to stand on for a re trial given the whol basis of their argument has now been dismissed.

 

[_Mike_]

Ask yourself this..

- You've served 18 years in prison for a crime you did not commit with DNA now confirming that you did not commit the crime
- you bring an action for wrongful imprisonment against the state with an estimated windfall of 36 million
- would you then go and kill someone jeopardising the case against the state?

No... This smells of a setup by the police who were uncovered to be incompetent during the first trial, to which the police and DA are trying to build another case against Avery getting out of the state paying him over $40m AUD

 

[kaiserchief13]

Ask yourself this..

- You've served 18 years in prison for a crime you did not commit with DNA now confirming that you did not commit the crime
- you bring an action for wrongful imprisonment against the state with an estimated windfall of 36 million
- would you then go and kill someone jeopardising the case against the state?

No... This smells of a setup by the police who were uncovered to be incompetent during the first trial, to which the police and DA are trying to build another case against Avery getting out of the state paying him over $40m AUD

Yeah you wouldn't think so, but at the same time if Avery did it then he would think police wont look at me because of the time they wrongly arrested me. It would be bad PR for them.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Yeah you wouldn't think so, but at the same time if Avery did it then he would think police wont look at me because of the time they wrongly arrested me. It would be bad PR for them.

Despite having a connection with the deceased, storing her car at his lot when he has access to a crusher and with his blood in her car.

I know he isn't a genius but he's not brain dead. Then burning her body at the quarry and taking the bones back to his own burn pit behind his house.

 

[Michaels]

Despite having a connection with the deceased, storing her car at his lot when he has access to a crusher and with his blood in her car.

I know he isn't a genius but he's not brain dead. Then burning her body at the quarry and taking the bones back to his own burn pit behind his house.

how a jury come to the conclusion he was 100% guilty is mind blowing. wouldn't be surprised if there was some under the table type deals done there as well.