Opinion Stopping small forwards

[Two Planks]

The backline structure of the cats while great when the ball is in the air is very vulnerable when the ball hits the ground. Eddie Betts, Steven Milne, Ahmed Saad etc seem to have a party against Geelong as Josh Hunt and Corey Enright look all at sea when the ball is at ground level. Stoppages in our defensive 50 are also a huge cause of concern.

Our normal backline structure of J Hunt Lonergan Scarlett Mackie Taylor & Enright does not cater for the nippy small forward with an eye for goal. Thank god most teams we are likely to cop in the finals dont have too many of these players. Collingwood will worry us as Dane Beams always kicks goals against Geelong and we cant forget Andrew Krakouer running amok in the GF last year.

I would rather see the backline line up like this as it gives us a better mix against big and small.

B: Guthrie Lonergan Scarlett
HB : Enright Taylor Murdoch

Lonergan - The stopper of the main forward target
Scarlett - Extra man at contest, run and create
Guthrie - Shut down the Milne / Betts type
Enright - normal role
Taylor - get 2nd key forward / intercept mark
Murdoch - run and create / tall enough to help compete in the air

Josh Hunt an option to play further up the ground or maybe miss out alltogether.

Andrew Mackie can play as an out and out attacking wingman or miss out as well.

 

[proboy]

Josh Hunt is above Guthrie in my opinion. But i can see your point Guthrie seems to play a lot tighter.

 

[Vdubs]

I've raised this point 2-3 years ago, and suggested Varcoe for that reason, got jumped on.
But it is a really vital point and NM, Blues, Freo could really trouble us in that department.

 

[barmy44]

Andrew Mackie can play as an out and out attacking wingman or miss out as well.

i sure hope not.

 

[Two Planks]

I've raised this point 2-3 years ago, and suggested Varcoe for that reason, got jumped on.
But it is a really vital point and NM, Blues, Freo could really trouble us in that department.

I would love to see Varcoe play off a half back flank and run and create Andrew McLeod style. Murdoch on the other flank and away we go. But we still need that lock down small defender. Apart from Guthrie I dont believe we have any other options. Maybe they should put some work into Simpkin or Sheringham because realistically they are going to be fairly well down the pecking order for midfield spots. This could be their opportunity to have a more than fleeting career.

 

[allrighty]

Andrew Mackie can play as an out and out attacking wingman or miss out as well.

I don't get this. Mackie has been in good nick, is a big game player and has saved our arses a number of times this year with timely goals. Can't agree.

 

[Deeskys]

Mackie is very underrated

 

[Vdubs]

I would love to see Varcoe play off a half back flank and run and create Andrew McLeod style. Murdoch on the other flank and away we go. But we still need that lock down small defender. Apart from Guthrie I dont believe we have any other options. Maybe they should put some work into Simpkin or Sheringham because realistically they are going to be fairly well down the pecking order for midfield spots. This could be their opportunity to have a more than fleeting career.

If we were to get a Boak, or a Cunnington type mid, perhaps Bundy could be amazing in that role rather than mid or forward.

 

[Two Planks]

I don't get this. Mackie has been in good nick, is a big game player and has saved our arses a number of times this year with timely goals. Can't agree.

I would prefer to see him play a more attacking role off a wing or forward flank. Its all about the balance of the backline and being able to cope with all types.

Remember the 2007 GF backline.

J Hunt Scarlett Enright
Mackie Harley Wocjinski

A good mix of tall, medium and small and luckily Port did not have a Milne crumming type.

2008 - Dew and Rioli were fantastic and we had no options to stop them

2009 - Schneider kicks straight we lose.

2010 - Better forgotten

2011 - Beams out of the side, Krakouer was unstoppable in the 2nd qtr

 

[CatsBack2Back]

I think it is a concern both for now and something to look at for next year and beyond.
I think Guthrie for Hunt is a good option or T.Hunt would also work as he's proven very effective as a shut down player a few times this year.
I am certainly not for leaving Mackie out of the backline except for patches of games, he has been in great form this year and is really playing the role that Scarlett has played in the past.
Varcoe is going to be a a great weapon in the finals (fingers crossed) and he can play anywhere but as a defender his great asset is to rebound with his pace and precise kicking, his accountability for a man hasn't been his game. Very hard to get someone to develop that role at this stage of the year.

Hopefully this role is something that some work is put into over the preseason and we look at developing an existing player or look to recruit someone to fill the role. I think it would be a waste of Bundy's talents as a midfielder when he looks like he will develop into an elite mid over the next couple of years as he enters his prime.

 

[Two Planks]

A left field option for a couple of years (as we are in premiership mode) would be Kane Cornes. Either out of contract or has 1 year left. Would be a great option for this position as a tagging back pocket.

 

[barmy44]

I would prefer to see him play a more attacking role off a wing or forward flank. Its all about the balance of the backline and being able to cope with all types.

Remember the 2007 GF backline.

J Hunt Scarlett Enright
Mackie Harley Wocjinski

A good mix of tall, medium and small and luckily Port did not have a Milne crumming type.

wouldnt have helped.

2008 - Dew and Rioli were fantastic and we had no options to stop them

the backline werent the ones missing eleven straight across the second and third quarter.

2009 - Schneider kicks straight we lose.

they couldnt stop chapman, we couldnt stop schneider. lets call it even, and our flag.

2010 - Better forgotten

dont recall our small defenders being responsible for the thompson and ablett show.

2011 - Beams out of the side, Krakouer was unstoppable in the 2nd qtr

so that means our small defenders had him stopped for 3/4s of the game? ill take it.

honestly, im not sure i agree with you.

milne has torn many sides apart over the years, betts has on occasion, too.

it is probably not the strength of our backline, this year maybe more than others, but we have the personnel to get by.

 

[jazzee]

Smedts is fast, decent tackler - thoughts?

 

[SleazySimon]

Guthrie and Taylor Hunt are both great defensive shut down players. We have the personnel, we just arnt ready to shaft josh hunt and wojinski. Enright is supposed to play this role isn't he? He's done well on rioli in the past.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Mackie is very underrated

Will go close to top five B&F, in my opinion.

I think Wojcinski could be a wildcard. There's no reason he couldn't step into this role, to fill a critical need in the side at the moment. Josh Hunt has played well this year, but you can tell early when he is going to have a tough night at the office (in fairness to him, he did keep Betts quiet in the second half of the Carlton game). Guthrie is also an option and I have been really impressed with him this year, but as he's been in and out of the side, you'd have to query whether he'd be trusted in this role, or whether Chris Scott would go with one of his 150+ game vets.

 

[Belisarius]

I have been critical of both Jhunt and to a lesser extent Mackie.

In the last few weeks both have been excellent IMO.

Stokes has also raised the bar. Those 3 are definite starters for me now.

 

[Belisarius]

Small forwards are a bit of a problem for us. Just hope we have a player who we can put back onto a small forward - if they start getting too dangerous. Not sure who - but I suspect GFC believe if we put enough pressure on the opposition midfield it makes life easier for our backmen - and limit the opportunities for small forwards.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Small forwards are a bit of a problem for us. Just hope we have a player who we can put back onto a small forward - if they start getting too dangerous. Not sure who - but I suspect GFC believe if we put enough pressure on the opposition midfield it makes life easier for our backmen - and limit the opportunities for small forwards.

With a full midfield contingent to work with, dropping Bartel back as a loose man may also be an option to counter any dangerous small forwards we come up against. This would have to be monitored closely though, as obviously the trade-off is that the opposition will also have a loose defender, which is how Adelaide cut us up in the game at AAMI. For this tactic to work, the forward entries have to be deep and/or precise.

 

[Two Planks]

I think most of you are missing the point. We need a defensive minded small defender. Hunt, Wocjinski, Enright, Mackie all look to attack before defending. At stoppages this is very dangerous and when you see the slow motion replay these players are usually ball watching and have no "touch" on their opponent. I am not saying that we should change the entire team, just 1 position. I just want 1 player in the backline to watch out for the small crumbing forward and sacrifice their own game for the good of the team.

 

[SJ]

It's a fair point. In some ways this has been our most significant weakness, even when we were close to unbeatable.

But I think with the current team we can mitigate most of the risk against teams that will look to exploit us in this area.

I think we defended poorly on Friday night. Our backline is very used to, and very good at, working together and helping eachother out to prevent one-on-one marking contests. This help does not only come from the talls in Lonergan or Taylor, but down the chain to Mackie, Scarlett, Enright and Hunt. Most of the time this is an effective ploy as the direct opponents of these latter players are not too threatening, and without the opposition's key forwards firing we go a long way to winning the match.

The Saints had very little to worry us with in terms of tall forwards, particularly as Riewoldt was missing. On the flip side, they were clearly going to try to kick goals via Milne and Saad (and Schneider once activated). However our medium and small defenders continued to play their typical 'help out' game, when not so much help was needed. This mean there were countless marking contests, where a Hunt or Enright were getting sucked into the marking contest, meanwhile their man was able to stay down and hit the contest at pace. We conceded a stack of goals like this.

After the tactic was obvious, we should have stayed down on those players and continued to apply body contact to prevent their run at the contest.

 

[witsend]

[quote="Two Planks, post: 25327737, member: 131664
Andrew Mackie can play as an out and out attacking wingman or miss out as well.[/quote]

You're kidding, right?
Mackie is CRUCIAL to our defensive transition structure, is arguably in career best form and has even displayed elements of toughness I didn't think he had in him. Would slot straight in to every other teams back 6 in a heartbeat.
I think what is being missed here is that no defensive structure is perfect, and with "sling-shot" footy in vogue, small forwards will do what they have always done...make defenders look slow and useless at time.
Guys like Milne and Saad are drafted precisely to do what you say we are vulnerable to.
We have MANY options for small forwards and occasionally someone will bob up and make us look a bit silly but no more and probably less than most other teams.
The reason we have been exposed more this year, imo, is the amount of inexperienced mids and rucks we have rotated which means our structures around and delivery from stoppages aren't as elite as they have been in the recent past.

 

[proboy]

Smedts is fast, decent tackler - thoughts?

He was tried down back, cemented his spot up forward in my eyes. played 10 times better in the forward half

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

I think most of you are missing the point. We need a defensive minded small defender. Hunt, Wocjinski, Enright, Mackie all look to attack before defending. At stoppages this is very dangerous and when you see the slow motion replay these players are usually ball watching and have no "touch" on their opponent. I am not saying that we should change the entire team, just 1 position. I just want 1 player in the backline to watch out for the small crumbing forward and sacrifice their own game for the good of the team.

I'd be willing to bet you that if Chris Scott said to Wojcinski that there was a spot for him in the team, but that his job would be to stick to Betts, or McGlynn, or Breust, or Callinan, or Fasolo like glue, he'd be able to do it. He hasn't done it, probably because he hasn't been asked to do it. How many taggers would have had any experience in that role, before coming to the AFL?

 

[Partridge]

Josh Hunt is above Guthrie in my opinion. But i can see your point Guthrie seems to play a lot tighter.

Isn't that a good thing when the aim is to stop the opponent?

Hunt's been a terrific servant of the club, and had a pretty solid last couple of years. But he does get exploited against good small forwards. For a long period of time too. A few of us pointed this out before the St.Kilda game and guess what? We were right. Enright was much better at it but I suspect has lost a yard now. Guthrie doesn't offer the drive that either man does, but seems to be getting better at pure stopping all the time.

I've said it a few times, I'd be very happy to play Guthrie from now on. You can't pick them all unfortunately.

 

[Partridge]

A good mix of tall, medium and small and luckily Port did not have a Milne crumming type.

2008 - Dew and Rioli were fantastic and we had no options to stop them

2009 - Schneider kicks straight we lose.

2010 - Better forgotten

2011 - Beams out of the side, Krakouer was unstoppable in the 2nd qtr

Rioli had 10 possessions for the game and kicked 2 goals. Max Rooke had 13 possessions for the game and also kicked 2 goals. He also had 7 tackles compared to Thyril's 3. It continues to be one of the most overrated Grand Final performances ever. Enright did his job.