Structural needs

[Jelly Bean]

We lack the short sharp passes to dangerous positions that open up play further down the ground.

That is more a gameplan thing.

 

[Collingwoodity]

That is more a gameplan thing.

Was just about to post this.

 

[jackcass]

That's what I reckon also.
I'd go in with something like this:

Williams Brown Frost
Langdon Keefe Toovey.

So you agree the backline would need to change before we were once again contenders. Which I believe is becoming monemental now we've dropped, regardless of the young list.

Huge difference between massively changing and maturing. Give the kids the 2015 season and see where we go. That defense was more than solid for the first half of 2014.

Langdon Frawley Brown
H. Shaw Reid Swan

Flag worthy defence.

And quoting a fictious defense that has absolutely zero likelihood of ever eventuating says more about you than our list.

And to add Frawley (and I don't care if you meant either Danny or James) as if to suggest that he's that much better footballer than either Keeffe or Frost are at an equivilent time in their development shows just how little you think of the Collingwood Football Club.

Not sure if you're just a blatant w***er or a troll.

Merry Christmas by the way.

 

[noideaatall]

That is more a gameplan thing.

Not sure what you mean by gameplan. I don't see any of the players mentioned, at least the ones I have see on tv, as being dangerous over short distances by foot. Keefe, Reid, Langdon, Marley are all 40m + players.

 

[Jelly Bean]

Not sure what you mean by gameplan. I don't see any of the players mentioned, at least the ones I have see on tv, as being dangerous over short distances by foot. Keefe, Reid, Langdon, Marley are all 40m + players.

The players you listed are 40m+ players because that is what Buckley wants them to do. Buckley is mostly about using the ball long out of the backline and through the middle, and getting it in quickly to Cloke in the forward 50. The players play to that instruction and generally look to get it long.

I'm not really sure I fully get the reference to 'dangerous over short distances by foot' either, especially out of the backline. Short kicking is rarely as dangerous as long kicking (except in the forward half). To help illustrate, who are the players in the competition you think of when talking about 'dangerous over short distances' from the backline?

 

[ace andy]

And to add Frawley (and I don't care if you meant either Danny or James) as if to suggest that he's that much better footballer than either Keeffe or Frost are at an equivilent time in their development shows just how little you think of the Collingwood Football Club.

I agree its stupid to do magical hypotheticals but I don't know how you could possibly suggest that Keeffe is on the same level as Frawley (Frawley is only about a year or two older). Frawley was All Australian when he was 21 much younger than Keeffe is now. I know who I would rather have. Frost hasn't been around long enough to know one way or the other.

 

[Shaneprice97]

Taking the game on is fair enough but can you do it without being caught? Harry was the best at it and we've lost him. Seedsman gets caught holding the ball too much. As does Young. No awareness and often find themselves just kicking long and blind.

disagree, Lumumba got caught plenty of times, and he was the master of having no awareness, and i wont even start on long bombs to nowhere.

Heath Shaw was the best at running and carrying, he knew where to pick his spots perfectly, as far as pure footballing ability goes, he has been a top 5 back flanker since he debuted, he could shut down a man, be our kick in specialist and collect 20-30 touches a game with a good 80% of those kicks each week.

criminally underrated, and how he hasnt been an AA is beyond me.

 

[THATSGOLD]

Huge difference between massively changing and maturing. Give the kids the 2015 season and see where we go. That defense was more than solid for the first half of 2014.



And quoting a fictious defense that has absolutely zero likelihood of ever eventuating says more about you than our list.

And to add Frawley (and I don't care if you meant either Danny or James) as if to suggest that he's that much better footballer than either Keeffe or Frost are at an equivilent time in their development shows just how little you think of the Collingwood Football Club.

Not sure if you're just a blatant ****** or a troll.

Merry Christmas by the way.

Because we were in to Frawley in a huge way but when it came to the crunch we got cold feet and look who has ended up with him. The team that will most likely win a third flag in a row. It's no wonder either. That's the stuff dreams are made of.

 

[noideaatall]

The players you listed are 40m+ players because that is what Buckley wants them to do. Buckley is mostly about using the ball long out of the backline and through the middle, and getting it in quickly to Cloke in the forward 50. The players play to that instruction and generally look to get it long.

I'm not really sure I fully get the reference to 'dangerous over short distances by foot' either, especially out of the backline. Short kicking is rarely as dangerous as long kicking (except in the forward half). To help illustrate, who are the players in the competition you think of when talking about 'dangerous over short distances' from the backline?

Davis is a pies player that was comfortable over 20+m and used this well. As example, Pendles took a kick in early this year. Ran back, picked up the ball, ran in a few steps then passed just left of centre 20m or so out to a pies player. So smooth and quick it took the opposition unawares, I think it may have taken the pies player two bites to hold it. Almost automatic. That can create more opportunity than the predictable long kick to the flank. I presumed we resorted to all that handball as a way to move the ball quickly when our kicking skills were lacking. I thought Bucks was adapting our game plan to fit the players, rather than limiting ball movement.

 

[ace andy]

I thought Bucks was adapting our game plan to fit the players, rather than limiting ball movement.

It seems pretty obvious to me that Bucks is making a system that he thinks is the best and the players have to fit into it rather than making the best system for what we have.

I think this because of 1) A high risk game plan through the centre when our skills suck in comparison to other teams.

2) Him saying he only wants players who want to be here and not trying to persuade players that this is a good place for them.

Its fine in theory to do that but this isn't soccer where we can buy the prefect team to fit a certain philosophy. We have to make do with what we have.

 

[noideaatall]

It seems pretty obvious to me that Bucks is making a system that he thinks is the best and the players have to fit into it rather than making the best system for what we have.

I think this because of 1) A high risk game plan through the centre when our skills suck in comparison to other teams.

2) Him saying he only wants players who want to be here and not trying to persuade players that this is a good place for them.

Its fine in theory to do that but this isn't soccer where we can buy the prefect team to fit a certain philosophy. We have to make do with what we have.

I'd agree off field but its not obvious to me on field. We still have a heap of posters arguing Bucks has no game plan which would seem to conflict with the idea of Buck's restricting the players. Clearly Bucks has brought an aim to move the ball through the middle but I see that more as recognising exclusively around the boundry wasn't going to cut it anymore. Over the three years he has coached there doesn't seem to have been a set pattern but rather different attempts to bring this to bear. What differences to you think we would have seen if Bucks was basing his system on player strengths?

 

[loki04]

It seems pretty obvious to me that Bucks is making a system that he thinks is the best and the players have to fit into it rather than making the best system for what we have.

I think this because of 1) A high risk game plan through the centre when our skills suck in comparison to other teams.

2) Him saying he only wants players who want to be here and not trying to persuade players that this is a good place for them.

Its fine in theory to do that but this isn't soccer where we can buy the prefect team to fit a certain philosophy. We have to make do with what we have.

It's called recruiting for your gameplan!

Hate to break it to you all but that is exactly what MM did for his entire tenure.

You can see our recruiting philosophy has gone from less skilled athletic hard working toilers to an emphasis on players who can kick and have an appetite for physical contact.

 

[ace andy]

It's called recruiting for your gameplan!

Hate to break it to you all but that is exactly what MM did for his entire tenure.

You can see our recruiting philosophy has gone from less skilled athletic hard working toilers to an emphasis on players who can kick and have an appetite for physical contact.

Of course you recruit for a game plan. But should we be waiting for a few draft picks to mature which can take 5 years. His plan should be able to cater to an unskilled team that we have now. Then when the more higher skilled players come in and take over you alter the game plan to the one you think is better AND the players can actually pull it off.

Should we really be encouraging players like Sinclair to take the ball from the defensive 50 through the centre of the ground trying to pinpoint players with foot skills? Its a devastating turn over waiting to happen. Its fine if its an easy kick but to my observation it seems like Bucks encourages everyone regardless of skill to take risks through the centre. Its fine in a skilled team. Its bad in an unskilled team.

 

[mike123]

Of course you recruit for a game plan. But should we be waiting for a few draft picks to mature which can take 5 years. His plan should be able to cater to an unskilled team that we have now. Then when the more higher skilled players come in and take over you alter the game plan to the one you think is better AND the players can actually pull it off.

Should we really be encouraging players like Sinclair to take the ball from the defensive 50 through the centre of the ground trying to pinpoint players with foot skills? Its a devastating turn over waiting to happen. Its fine if its an easy kick but to my observation it seems like Bucks encourages everyone regardless of skill to take risks through the centre. Its fine in a skilled team. Its bad in an unskilled team.

Maybe that's Bucks plan, while he's waiting for the skilled players to come through he thought instead of changing the gameplan he wants he keeping it so the same let the unskilled players take us a few spots down the ladder and get better draft pick

 

[Prochard123]

Davis is a pies player that was comfortable over 20+m and used this well. As example, Pendles took a kick in early this year. Ran back, picked up the ball, ran in a few steps then passed just left of centre 20m or so out to a pies player. So smooth and quick it took the opposition unawares, I think it may have taken the pies player two bites to hold it. Almost automatic. That can create more opportunity than the predictable long kick to the flank. I presumed we resorted to all that handball as a way to move the ball quickly when our kicking skills were lacking. I thought Bucks was adapting our game plan to fit the players, rather than limiting ball movement.

Buckley has a game plan?...

 

[Shaneprice97]

We didn't fluke being a top 8 side.

2002 era
Tarks Presti Wakes
Johnson Clement Burns.

That was a defence.

Then

2007 era
Johnson Presti Wakes
Tarks Maxwell Toovey


Gun defences.

2002 is more like
FB: Presti, Wakes, Clement
HB: Johnno, Cloke, Lonie

Still a wicked backline though, Burnsy was much more of an On baller.

 

[THATSGOLD]

2002 is more like
FB: Presti, Wakes, Clement
HB: Johnno, Cloke, Lonie

Still a wicked backline though, Burnsy was much more of an On baller.

Lonie more of a winger, Tarks more a user of the ball off half back like Clement. Both low flat elite kicks. Lonie a penetrating kick. Cloke third up. You could say we had more of a back 9-10 than 6. Burns started his career off half back worked more in to the midfield correct. Would get back a lot too.

 

[THATSGOLD]

Buckley has a game plan?...

It's to get the players to like him...

 

[The Prince 29]

It's to get the players to like him...

 

[Shaneprice97]

Lonie more of a winger, Tarks more a user of the ball off half back like Clement. Both low flat elite kicks. Lonie a penetrating kick. Cloke third up. You could say we had more of a back 9-10 than 6. Burns started his career off half back worked more in to the midfield correct. Would get back a lot too.

the game i remember most from 2002 was the granny, great game and Burnsy played right through the guts alongside Bucks.

i love that game even though we lost.

 

[THATSGOLD]

the game i remember most from 2002 was the granny, great game and Burnsy played right through the guts alongside Bucks.

i love that game even though we lost.

We started 02 like a blaze of glory. Pretty sure we were 7 win 0 losses going in to round 8 against Brisbane and beat them to go top of the ladder. Thing I remember most of Mcgough putting his body on the line in that round 8 game and getting injured and the players all getting around him after the big win. Our backline was extraordinary with kicking skills.

 

[noideaatall]

We started 02 like a blaze of glory. Pretty sure we were 7 win 0 losses going in to round 8 against Brisbane and beat them to go top of the ladder. Thing I remember most of Mcgough putting his body on the line in that round 8 game and getting injured and the players all getting around him after the big win. Our backline was extraordinary with kicking skills.

Did you mean extraordinary in general or extraordinary in their kicking skills. I'd laugh at the latter, half agree with the former. They did have kicking skills, just not extraordinary ones. Was it 2002 or 2003 J. Cloke was being used so well? For a while there I thougt we had the next billy picken, showed how much I knew about the game. I think we were a lot stronger all over the ground back then, particularly through the middle. Our backline late noughties was a lot tighter. The key then, as maybe your post alludes to, was team.

 

[THATSGOLD]

Did you mean extraordinary in general or extraordinary in their kicking skills. I'd laugh at the latter, half agree with the former. They did have kicking skills, just not extraordinary ones. Was it 2002 or 2003 J. Cloke was being used so well? For a while there I thougt we had the next billy picken, showed how much I knew about the game. I think we were a lot stronger all over the ground back then, particularly through the middle. Our backline late noughties was a lot tighter. The key then, as maybe your post alludes to, was team.

Tarks and Clement could deliver the ball like no other. The lowest flat accurate kicks. We would nearly always put it in their hands to get it out of the backline.

 

[nahnah]

Tarks and Clement could deliver the ball like no other. The lowest flat accurate kicks. We would nearly always put it in their hands to get it out of the backline.

apart from when tarks turned it over late in the 2009 anzac day game.. which did not end well at all. Tarks was incredibly underrated, and given Beams was awful in the 2010 grand final i wish they played tarks instead. He deserved to be a premiership player

 

[THATSGOLD]

apart from when tarks turned it over late in the 2009 anzac day game.. which did not end well at all. Tarks was incredibly underrated, and given Beams was awful in the 2010 grand final i wish they played tarks instead. He deserved to be a premiership player

Tarks started struggling towards the end of 08. I remember watching him a 2010 home and away game from the stands and he wasn't running the hard yards. Once that's gone you're finished. It's the reason Fasolo doesn't impress me (off topic)
Lockyer had one of the best kicks in the comp with Clement. We had them both together in D50 just brilliant.
H Shaw Johnson Lockyer Presti Maxwell Wakelin Clement we have been blessed with great defenders.
Reid must get fit and be the star we need in defence again. We are struggling for class down back.