Media Swans Talk in the Media 2024

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Heeney2Franklin said:
Yer Liz is a great poster so articulate in her reasoning the flip flopping that King does especially is wild if we beat GWS this week he will be back on board
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They can't win though really.

Either they stick to their guns because they're just not convinced (Whateley, Montagna) and then get called stubborn old haters, or they flip flop based on whatever happened on the weekend (King, Barrett) and then get called flakey flip-floppers.

I personally have more time for the former group, even when they are not always positive to us. I don't think there's anything wrong with not being convinced by a team and needing time and lots of evidence to become convinced.
 
caesar88 said:
They can't win though really.

Either they stick to their guns because they're just not convinced (Whateley, Montagna) and then get called stubborn old haters, or they flip flop based on whatever happened on the weekend (King, Barrett) and then get called flakey flip-floppers.

I personally have more time for the former group, even when they are not always positive to us. I don't think there's anything wrong with not being convinced by a team and needing time and lots of evidence to become convinced.
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Absolutely i think they can balance their extremes better tho on a week to week basis!
 

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I don't have a problem with them giving their opinions, though I think most would benefit for greater allowance of uncertainty. The human brain doesn't seem to like uncertainty, but for me, doubt and curiosity are great assets.

I don't know how to place us at the moment. I think we are a very good team but far from perfect. And it's hard to wipe the memories of 2014 and 2022 from the mind, even though the personnel aren't the same (especially compared to 2014). But to win a premiership you can't just be a very good team. You need to be the best team (at least on the final weekend of September) and there are a handful of other very good teams in the competition this season.

Compared to those who look like being our main competition, we

a) don't have an established key forward or two who can take the game by the scruff of the neck and create goals when a game is tight. I love how McDonald is tracking, but he doesn't have the aura or the physical size of Hogan, McKay/Curnow, Cameron/Hawkins.

b) are small. It means we don't have a lot of contested marking ability around the ground and are vulnerable to being bullied around contests. Even our version of the centre/forward buster - think Petracca, De Goey, Cripps, Dangerfield - isn't especially bulky. He can lay a huge tackle but he tends not to burst through packs with players hanging off him. He dances around packs and weaves through traffic. He is, however, more skilled by hand and by foot than any of his peers, so when he does create space for himself, the opposition better watch out.

But this just adds to the interest and intrigue of the season. Just as in 2022, when we weren't "meant" to get to a GF, there are strong arguments this year around how we're not quite ready. But that doesn't mean we can't or won't. I just hope that, if we do get there, we are severely tested along the way so that we arrive at the MCG a little wiser and tougher.
 
liz said:
I'm finding all this statistical analysis from Champion Data and from the likes of King particularly garbled this season. I reckon part of the problem is trying to draw conclusions from a small sample of games, especially when so few of the teams near the top have played each other, and where conditions are different in each game.

A couple of weeks ago we were apparently very easy to score against. Yet, right now, we have the second best defensive record in the competition.

We were also poor in clearances, yet in Hoyne's latest piece he says we're second best from clearances. (He wasn't explicit but I suspect he meant at creating scores from clearance, rather than raw clearance numbers themselves.) He then said our problems start away from clearance, before going on to say we're one of the best at ball movement. None of it is very coherent.

He's concerned at our reliance on uncontested marks. But maybe we're taking a lot of uncontested marks this year because our opponents are letting us. The one team that didn't was Richmond, but our ability to adapt to the pressure they brought wasn't the only reason we lost that game. Our own pressure was also down on where it generally is.

He lauds Geelong's simplicity of style, with them having moved away from trying to control the ball in favour of moving the ball quickly and being happy to kick down the line to contests. But they are a taller, bigger team than us, with more overhead marking prowess. We'd be awful if that was our main way of moving the ball forward.

I reckon the worst a team can do is try to play a style that isn't suited to their assets. And the next worst is only having one way to play. I don't think we really know how adaptable the Swans' game style is yet, but we'll find out as we play against different teams and in different conditions. There was a lot of chipping around on Sunday, but I haven't got the impression that's something we've relied on too much this year. If anything, the likes of Errol and Blakey can be prone to take on the high risk kicks too often and, when they don't come off, expose an out of position to defence.

I've watched the replay of the Hawks game and there were many aspects of the game where I don't think we played very well at all. The defence was solid but also helped by the Hawks' inability to convert straightforward shots. The midfield was a bit meh for most of the match, though their pressure was excellent, especially in the first half. The forward line got the job done with ease, but it feels like it was more individual talent rather than system that was responsible for the majority of the games. And yet we still won by 12 goals, so can't really complain. It's the kind of game that, a few years back, we'd have won by 20 or so point.
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my thoughts on the vic/mainstream football media are well documented over the years ...

as for style ... we just need to play our style, because when we play it at its best, i don't think any team can stop us ...
at this stage, i maintain that, and look forward to hopefully seeing it proved over the course of this season and beyond
i don't think any team can move the ball with same speed and precision as we do at our best ... we have the potential to score as fast as or arguably faster than any other team, so we are always a threat
and our defence is still improving
and i agree, and posted it i think late in the game day thread, we were not good at all against hawthorn, in fact we were pretty slack, complacent and lazy for large parts of the game ... and yet we still did what we did
 
Grand Uncle Horace said:
The data is interesting but for me the eye test is just far more important. Amartey’s backhander knock on was vital to Wicksy’s first goal but does CD count let alone rank it. Unfortunately the telly is really limited and nothing replaces being at the game and using one’s eyes.

Accept I am a dinosaur.
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to me, it's pretty much the key ... you can have all the data, but context and interpretation of data can change as soon as you can properly watch a player over a few games ... and with some players, you can tell pretty quickly (eg, gulden)
 
liz said:
I don't have a problem with them giving their opinions, though I think most would benefit for greater allowance of uncertainty. The human brain doesn't seem to like uncertainty, but for me, doubt and curiosity are great assets.

I don't know how to place us at the moment. I think we are a very good team but far from perfect. And it's hard to wipe the memories of 2014 and 2022 from the mind, even though the personnel aren't the same (especially compared to 2014). But to win a premiership you can't just be a very good team. You need to be the best team (at least on the final weekend of September) and there are a handful of other very good teams in the competition this season.

Compared to those who look like being our main competition, we

a) don't have an established key forward or two who can take the game by the scruff of the neck and create goals when a game is tight. I love how McDonald is tracking, but he doesn't have the aura or the physical size of Hogan, McKay/Curnow, Cameron/Hawkins.

b) are small. It means we don't have a lot of contested marking ability around the ground and are vulnerable to being bullied around contests. Even our version of the centre/forward buster - think Petracca, De Goey, Cripps, Dangerfield - isn't especially bulky. He can lay a huge tackle but he tends not to burst through packs with players hanging off him. He dances around packs and weaves through traffic. He is, however, more skilled by hand and by foot than any of his peers, so when he does create space for himself, the opposition better watch out.

But this just adds to the interest and intrigue of the season. Just as in 2022, when we weren't "meant" to get to a GF, there are strong arguments this year around how we're not quite ready. But that doesn't mean we can't or won't. I just hope that, if we do get there, we are severely tested along the way so that we arrive at the MCG a little wiser and tougher.
Click to expand...
I would add that it is an imperative that we improve our tackling capability across the park. Tackles must not only stick but be able to stop handballs getting out. They must hit the tackling bags / weights hard a few weeks out from finals.

Very keen to see how our skinny kids go against the barrel chested gorillas of Geelong. Heeney, Wicks, Rowie and Parker can lead the way. This is also why we need Mills.

Can not allow us to get bullied around the ball again esp in grand finals.

I think we can get there but we need to prioritise this.
 
SM said:
I'm not convinced he will be.
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pretty sure it wasn't king, but there was a comment in one of those "rankings" columns a week or so ago that "even if the giants lose to sydney" they're a legitimate contender ... yet further down the same column, all we got was more questions and doubts ...
so, no, i don't expect many of them to jump on board when we beat the giants ...
and what makes all of that negativity more difficult to comprehend is that we were pretty much the darlings of the league the first three weeks ...
 
Grand Uncle Horace said:
Amartey’s backhander knock on was vital to Wicksy’s first goal but does CD count let alone rank it
Click to expand...
Knock-ones are measured, yes. It's a 1%er. It would count in his individual stats and it would get an equity value in the AFL Player Rankings.

In team value, it would just show up as keeping the chain of possessions going, so it was part of the stoppage goal that originated at half forward, which wouldn't have existed otherwise. It also means we registered an effective inside 50 instead of it ending as a stoppage or rebound, pushing up how we rate for forward efficiency.
 
J_Moore said:
Pretty cool how stats can be meaningless and how you can’t beat the eye test or whatever.

Makes you wonder why every club, along with every major professional sporting team in the world, spends so much time and money collecting and analysing them. What a waste!
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no question, a lot of stats are very important, instructive ... so is what you see in games
 
the hypnotoad said:
no question, a lot of stats are very important, instructive ... so is what you see in games
Click to expand...

Stats help to explain what you see in games. You don’t base everything on stats obviously, but they help to explain and clarify at least some of the uncertainty inherent within the game.
 

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Regarding the various Champion and Kingy takes, I think they're broadly correct that clearly the biggest outstanding question regarding this Swans team is how they go when you deny space to set up and move, especially around halfback. Richmond and the Eagles showed we were vulnerable to a high press, the overloaded numbers led to pressure, tackling and a lot of deflected disposals by us.

That's not fatal, there's ways to counter it within our style (running and handballing through the traffic; applying enough pressure after we lose the ball to get it back or force a stoppage; kicking long over it to space if you can avoid the deep Steven May style interceptors, kicking medium distance to precisely find a loose marking option in limited space around half back), but it's certainly a potential weakness when the boys are a bit too keen on the short and lateral kicking game.

Hawthorn were basically disinterested in, or incapable of applying, that same crowding and pressure around half back which is why we were able to find half back and wing targets and waltz through them straight into goalscoring opportunities. GWS do that though, they love a front half turnover, so it'll be a big test.

We're actually both top 3 sides at scoring from both front half and back half turnovers, so the duelling turnover stuff, and defending your own turnovers, is gonna be a huge part of the game.
 
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www.afl.com.au

Giant in the gun after 'smug' remark, Swans face selection squeeze

Sam Taylor could come in for some early attention after labelling Sydney as smug, while Luke Parker is set to return for his first game of the season
www.afl.com.au www.afl.com.au

www.foxsports.com.au

Sydney clubs dominate amid bolters, shocks and snubs: Way-too-early AFL All-Australian team

Sydney clubs dominate amid bolters, shocks and snubs: Way-too-early AFL All-Australian team
www.foxsports.com.au www.foxsports.com.au

From The Age:

Crows chief executive Tim Silvers has told anyone who will listen that they plan to be hyper-aggressive in the player movement space, illustrated in their willingness for Errol Gulden to tell them the length of contract he needed to jump ship.
The sole free agent Adelaide signed since Eddie Betts 11 years ago was delisted former Lion Mitch Hinge, so they are well overdue to make a splash there, although they did lure Jordan Dawson and Izak Rankine home in trades.
Sydney restricted free agent Will Hayward, from North Adelaide, looms as the obvious pivot now that Gulden stayed put for four more years, taking the All-Australian midfielder to free agency in 2028.
The question for the Crows is whether the Swan, largely a role player in red and white, is worth ponying up big money for. Sydney were displeased with their trade compensation for Dawson three years ago. lolololol
 
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Ticky009 said:
www.foxsports.com.au

Sydney clubs dominate amid bolters, shocks and snubs: Way-too-early AFL All-Australian team

Sydney clubs dominate amid bolters, shocks and snubs: Way-too-early AFL All-Australian team
www.foxsports.com.au www.foxsports.com.au
Click to expand...
It's interesting to see McCartin get some recognition. His is not a name often thrown about in AA discussions, and it still remains to be seen how he'll fare against the best tall forwards. His poorest game of the year was against Richmond, which might land up being the only good game that Tom Lynch plays all year. (Not due to other opponents, but due to injury curtailing him yet again.)

My biggest beef with the team is the bench. All the players named are high quality players having great seasons, but they all play similar roles in their teams - that of the number one midfield contested ball winner. They should be competing amongst themselves (and with the likes of Heeney and Merrett and Petracca) for two or three bench spots alongside the starting on-ball spots to allow a bit more variation across the bench.
 
Arwib said:
Regarding the various Champion and Kingy takes, I think they're broadly correct that clearly the biggest outstanding question regarding this Swans team is how they go when you deny space to set up and move, especially around halfback. Richmond and the Eagles showed we were vulnerable to a high press, the overloaded numbers led to pressure, tackling and a lot of deflected disposals by us.

That's not fatal, there's ways to counter it within our style (running and handballing through the traffic; applying enough pressure after we lose the ball to get it back or force a stoppage; kicking long over it to space if you can avoid the deep Steven May style interceptors, kicking medium distance to precisely find a loose marking option in limited space around half back), but it's certainly a potential weakness when the boys are a bit too keen on the short and lateral kicking game.

Hawthorn were basically disinterested in, or incapable of applying, that same crowding and pressure around half back which is why we were able to find half back and wing targets and waltz through them straight into goalscoring opportunities. GWS do that though, they love a front half turnover, so it'll be a big test.

We're actually both top 3 sides at scoring from both front half and back half turnovers, so the duelling turnover stuff, and defending your own turnovers, is gonna be a huge part of the game.
Click to expand...

I broadly agree with all of this and I think the other thing to take into account is that the assets that we spent the off-season assembling players to also play a more contested brand of football for the finals. Grundy has been there all season and been good (worst game of the year against Hawthorn but I’ll be backing him to bounce back), Adams has now started playing and doing so consistently but we’ve been missing two of our best contested ball winners in Parker and Mills. I think it’s quite possible that we see more of the grit and contested ball winning game without always needing to rely on precise ball movement as the year goes on and we get those guys back into the side. It might just be whether we have enough time to get that side of the game cranking and in good shape for the finals.

Personally, I think we’ll make prelims this year but fall short of a GF and therefore a flag but I think we’re in with a shot for sure.
 
liz said:
I'm finding all this statistical analysis from Champion Data and from the likes of King particularly garbled this season. I reckon part of the problem is trying to draw conclusions from a small sample of games, especially when so few of the teams near the top have played each other, and where conditions are different in each game.

A couple of weeks ago we were apparently very easy to score against. Yet, right now, we have the second best defensive record in the competition.

We were also poor in clearances, yet in Hoyne's latest piece he says we're second best from clearances. (He wasn't explicit but I suspect he meant at creating scores from clearance, rather than raw clearance numbers themselves.) He then said our problems start away from clearance, before going on to say we're one of the best at ball movement. None of it is very coherent.

He's concerned at our reliance on uncontested marks. But maybe we're taking a lot of uncontested marks this year because our opponents are letting us. The one team that didn't was Richmond, but our ability to adapt to the pressure they brought wasn't the only reason we lost that game. Our own pressure was also down on where it generally is.

He lauds Geelong's simplicity of style, with them having moved away from trying to control the ball in favour of moving the ball quickly and being happy to kick down the line to contests. But they are a taller, bigger team than us, with more overhead marking prowess. We'd be awful if that was our main way of moving the ball forward.

I reckon the worst a team can do is try to play a style that isn't suited to their assets. And the next worst is only having one way to play. I don't think we really know how adaptable the Swans' game style is yet, but we'll find out as we play against different teams and in different conditions. There was a lot of chipping around on Sunday, but I haven't got the impression that's something we've relied on too much this year. If anything, the likes of Errol and Blakey can be prone to take on the high risk kicks too often and, when they don't come off, expose an out of position to defence.

I've watched the replay of the Hawks game and there were many aspects of the game where I don't think we played very well at all. The defence was solid but also helped by the Hawks' inability to convert straightforward shots. The midfield was a bit meh for most of the match, though their pressure was excellent, especially in the first half. The forward line got the job done with ease, but it feels like it was more individual talent rather than system that was responsible for the majority of the games. And yet we still won by 12 goals, so can't really complain. It's the kind of game that, a few years back, we'd have won by 20 or so point.
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Terrific summary again Liz . I believe that CD and disciples like King have to have content as he's on so many mediums .
They change like a teams form , like us the last 2 weeks in defenCe , whereas before that not as good and every team changes, depends on form and who you play .
 
S120 said:
I broadly agree with all of this and I think the other thing to take into account is that the assets that we spent the off-season assembling players to also play a more contested brand of football for the finals. Grundy has been there all season and been good (worst game of the year against Hawthorn but I’ll be backing him to bounce back), Adams has now started playing and doing so consistently but we’ve been missing two of our best contested ball winners in Parker and Mills. I think it’s quite possible that we see more of the grit and contested ball winning game without always needing to rely on precise ball movement as the year goes on and we get those guys back into the side. It might just be whether we have enough time to get that side of the game cranking and in good shape for the finals.

Personally, I think we’ll make prelims this year but fall short of a GF and therefore a flag but I think we’re in with a shot for sure.
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Surprisingly enough we have been genuinely potent from stoppages this year, both at scoring from them (most points per stoppage chain) and defending them (4th least points per stoppage against). We're also winning the stoppage counts overall (second best stoppage differential after Freo).

Centre bounce remains pretty mediocre, but the stoppage stuff has become genuinely a strength for us after being not great in prior years.
 
Personally, I don't care what the media says as they just say things to get clicks or eyeballs. It's all about revenue, so they say things whether they believe it or not, knowing that the news cycle is less than 24 hours these days, so whatever they say now is forgotten by this time tomorrow.
I am more interested in winning actual games than the media praising us, so I'm not sure why people get upset if a particular pundit rates us or not.
 
dosser said:
Personally, I don't care what the media says as they just say things to get clicks or eyeballs. It's all about revenue, so they say things whether they believe it or not, knowing that the news cycle is less than 24 hours these days, so whatever they say now is forgotten by this time tomorrow.
I am more interested in winning actual games than the media praising us, so I'm not sure why people get upset if a particular pundit rates us or not.
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like politicians
 
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