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Tamed?

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JuddFevGoal

Team Captain
Joined
May 19, 2009
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Location
Middle Park
AFL Club
Carlton
I've been very critical, and I believe with with justification, of Essendon's behaviour over their 2012 supplements program and their inconsistent and arrogant denial of responsibility throughout this year. The last thing our game needs is clubs failing in their duty of care in being unable to account for substances injected into young footy players, and that is before what is increasingly starting to look like a drug cheating/doping issue on top of the existing governance case (see Nick McKenzie's article in The Age this weekend).

However, the tone and various reactions inside and outside of the Essendon community have started me thinking about Carlton, our culture, what we have traditionally been and what we have become today.

A lot has been said of Carlton's 'arrogance', and that term has come to exclusively refer to the period prior to our 2002 sanctions for salary cap breaches. Remember the days of 'Pig's Arse', the days of Diesel, SOS, Mad Dog, and a supporter base that arrogantly despised its enemies and demanded only the toughest and best effort from those privileged enough to don the jumper?

The post - 2002 Carlton is a different Carlton. Ian Collins immediately brought in a culture of compliance with the AFL. Take the sanctions on the chin, don't question - take responsibility. All noble gestures and sentiments that, to a degree, I am proud of; particularly when I see the spin-laden, lack of care for players and their families coming from Windy Hill this year, and indeed a lack of care for the culture of the entire game.

But what in all of this have we lost? Were we 'tamed' by the AFL? Did we go to the Telstra Dome, like good corporate citizens, as we were told?; a deal that even Sticks hints at with regret. In the last decade, have we ever peeped up in the media about issues that the club doesn't agree with in the football community? It seems to me that (barring a slight return in this direction under Richard Pratt), Malthouse is the only one who has got the heart beating again in his media dealings with regard to taking some pride in our positions, popular or not. Yes, he can be a cantankerous and amusing old bugger. But when he was asked after our loss on Saturday night by an off camera journalist if he regretted suggesting that the AFL go hard on Essendon if they are found to have brought the game into disrepute - he threw everything at that ridiculous question - 'When did you join the Priesthood?' Yes a deliberately obtuse and combative response, but the fact remains, why, just because Essendon pinched a game off an undermanned (and yes lacklustre) Carlton, should any of us suddenly concede less penalties for their outrageous treatment of their own players and the game in general? The question was beyond stupid.

Like good corporate citizens too, following the pack in the mid 2000's, we invested heavily in obedient 'professional' players, mostly midfielders who were the flavour of the month, strong on flashy skills and low on grunt and arrogance. Now we wish for a Hodge, or like much of the list at Freo, a group that puts grunt, effort and determination ahead of waiting for a chance to show slick skills.

I was angry at Carlton on Saturday night. There was more than just a game at stake, more even than making the 8. There was a moral victory to be won here. The old Carlton would've denied Hird his glory moment; his 20 minutes of spin so he could crap on endlessly about himself about how joyous everyone is at Windy Hill (devastated mum's calling Triple M aside).

Sometimes, I wish for that arrogance back, and yes, some of that arrogant culture that is driving Essendon (although I would never wish it to be as misguided as they are). Arrogance drives a supporter base to have pride, and maybe after ten years of being tamed, it's time finally for us to regain our status and foster a culture that can, by it's nature, demand higher levels of commitment, toughness, and yes, fear from our players - fear that they are not meeting the demands of a proud football club and a passionate supporter base.

There is no time like the present for the proud, old dark Blues.

Essendon is our nearest competitor for most premierships ever. They have done more damage to themselves in the last 24 months than even their worst enemy could plot for them. It's time for us to remember the many incredible players, both living and absent, made us at least the equal most successful club in our game.

In conversation with Mike Sheehan, Greg Williams was asked what it was like to coach a hero of the game like Chris Judd. What could you possibly say to him, Sheehan asked. "I just said he's not as good a ball handler as he thinks he is."

I want some of that back.
 
I have to agree with a lot of what you said. I miss Carlton having absolute contempt for our opponents, when they revelled in breaking teams apart and smashing them on the field and on the scoreboard. Now we have very little grunt, very little heart, and very little to hang our hats on at the end of yet another long, somewhat disappointing season.

Hopefully the emergence of players like Tuohy will begin to turn our culture around again.
 
Carlton's too nice for me right now. Sick of hearing about how introverted the playing group is. Be nice to have a team that showed at least the same amount of contempt for their opponents as other clubs do to us.

Would also be nice if the supporters had some involvement/power in the club since it seems ridiculous that assholes like Mathieson are part of the board when their only contribution is completely financial. Piss off the 6,7 unnecessary board members and give the members a say in who becomes president.
 

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It is about finding the right balance. .. Our arrogance in the 90s and early 00s led us to 2002. .. As has Essendon's arrogance led them to 2012 (wonder what will happen in 2022). .. However we are a shadow of our former selves and need to get some of that hunger back. ..

Having said that, we are not the meak club that capitulated from 2003 to 2007 with spoons and dud stadium deals. .. We are making ground and its time our supporters and club learned some patience while re-finding its arrogance. .. Because right now we are more Richmond like than Collingwood like in our approach to our club. ..
 
Hard to show contempt for your opponent when hairstyle and social media carry such weight in your life.

I'm sure when Watson kicked those two inspiring goals against us on Saturday night he was thinking "Gee I wonder where Gibbs gets his hair done".
 
Arrogance without substance is a waste. You'll get far more members being a family club on the outside but playing unsociable football like the Hawks. By and large Geelong don't strut around thinking they are god's gifts and Geelong as an organisation are comparatively humble. Arrogance is great for tribalism but it does not work for attracting a new generation and it does not work when it causes the media to barrack against you. These things will affect young supporters.

Compliance is selective. Pick your battles, don't just kick and scream pointing to how special you are. I didn't want a clash Guernsey but it was always happening, and it is not a battle that we should pick. We were broke and the AFL offered financial incentives to go to Docklands and pay out our Princes Park contracts, on top of the fact they were refusing to guarantee fixtures there. We didn't just roll over to be compliant, we looked after our short term financial interests.

We didn't pick players as a sign of how vanilla we were. We picked players based on character because we could no longer sustain the damage to our image. If we want rough nuts, ensure they have white line fever but also footy smarts, but most importantly aren't the types that get into trouble off field. Passion and toughness on field, normal blokes off field. Give me Peter Dean, Fraser Brown, Adrian Hickmott ... uncompromising footballers ... good blokes.
 
Arrogance without substance is a waste. You'll get far more members being a family club on the outside but playing unsociable football like the Hawks. By and large Geelong don't strut around thinking they are god's gifts and Geelong as an organisation are comparatively humble. Arrogance is great for tribalism but it does not work for attracting a new generation and it does not work when it causes the media to barrack against you. These things will affect young supporters.

Compliance is selective. Pick your battles, don't just kick and scream pointing to how special you are. I didn't want a clash Guernsey but it was always happening, and it is not a battle that we should pick. We were broke and the AFL offered financial incentives to go to Docklands and pay out our Princes Park contracts, on top of the fact they were refusing to guarantee fixtures there. We didn't just roll over to be compliant, we looked after our short term financial interests.

We didn't pick players as a sign of how vanilla we were. We picked players based on character because we could no longer sustain the damage to our image. If we want rough nuts, ensure they have white line fever but also footy smarts, but most importantly aren't the types that get into trouble off field. Passion and toughness on field, normal blokes off field. Give me Peter Dean, Fraser Brown, Adrian Hickmott ... uncompromising footballers ... good blokes.

For me, Luke Hodge embodies the spirit of my argument in the OP.

As an opposition supporter, you hate him. But Hodge is tough as guts, a hard nut. And he has made an art form at roughing up opposition players within the rules. Sometimes I replay one of his bumps (like the one on Murphy), trying as hard as I can to find a way to throw the book at him, and I can't.

I used to like the fact that Carlton was full of nice blokes - that we didn't duck for frees like Selwood, that we didn't make an art out of hard hits like Hodge - but now I'm not so sure. This game is a tough game - for those who want to take it to that level, on the field - it's a war. We need players that get under opposition noses, that have an inbuilt sense of physical superiority and are consistent at it, every week.

My favourite moment on Saturday night was Tom Bell's bump that had such force, the recipient shat himself and dropped the ball. Although it's great to see the amazing dexterity of Betts and Yarran, also on display that night, for me Bell's approach, if performed en masse is what wears opposition teams down.

When Hawthorn watch Hodge take apart opposition players, they all stand taller. Can this be said of Murphy, despite his undoubted talent? I don't think so. Can he learn it? Maybe.

As for our administration, I do think that playing good corporate citizens all the time is not good for supporters. It makes them docile. They need more character than that. For me, Sticks, although a club champion is not a strong leader off-field. In the Victory Room after the Doggies loss, Sticks said basically that this pack of blokes are better than the display last night and to stick by them. I know where he is coming from but I think the big heart approach needs to be a bit more ruthless. Players who won't bleed and grunt for the jumper should be out the door. I don't care what they are capable of.

As the Greeks have wisely put it, the secret of life is to 'Avoid Excess'... and too much arrogance leads to, well.... let's face it... James Hird.

But we've spent 10 years being good boys; it's time to put a healthy amount of pride and disrespect of opposition back into the jumper.
 
For mine, all types are welcome...inside, outside, upside, blindside...whatever type of footballer you are, you are welcome on the list if you commit 100% to moving the club forward with your particular skill set, be it a Tom Bell bump or a scything Yarran dash.

The OP makes some good points - pride, arrogance, morality, intimidation, etc etc etc - but they seem to me to be somewhat of an exercise in doing things backwards...

'Bring back the old (insert term here) and success will follow...' Maybe they were the product of success?

In any case, it's all moot if each individual player is not willing to commit everything they have to our success, and moreover, it amounts to naught if each individual can't rely on every one of the others to do the same.

That is the piece of the puzzle holding us back...
 
Pretty damning for both the Club and also those buffons in the commentary team on Saturday night, was that a large part of the commentators discussion about our team was focused on our haircuts and beards.

We seriously have zero respect in the football community at the moment and I am totally unsure of what we are doing to regain it.
 
As for our administration, I do think that playing good corporate citizens all the time is not good for supporters. It makes them docile. They need more character than that. For me, Sticks, although a club champion is not a strong leader off-field. In the Victory Room after the Doggies loss, Sticks said basically that this pack of blokes are better than the display last night and to stick by them. I know where he is coming from but I think the big heart approach needs to be a bit more ruthless. Players who won't bleed and grunt for the jumper should be out the door. I don't care what they are capable of.

Sticks should be using his profile to try to inspire the players, but he is not the coach and shouldn't be taking players to task. Gone are the days when Elliot used to go into the change rooms and tear strips off the players. They endured it but didn't like or respect it.

Moving clubs does not have the stigma it once had. We see more trades requested than in the old days. If a player thinks he is unappreciated or if a rant takes a wrong turn and takes out someone who might be out of form but for different reasons, a divide starts to take hold. Every club has players that are more finesse than grunt, and no club has only players who go in kamikaze style. Let's not let our passion cloud our judgment and make sweeping statements about players getting the hell out of the club if they don't want to give 100% and wanting them all to be a team of tough nuts. We just need a smattering of kamikazes and the rest just need to go when it is their turn, but not on a suicide mission. Pick the moments you can effect the play ... smart footballers with a bit of steel is what we need. It is the ones that won't go when the occasion demands it, that need some work. Showing them all the door is not the answer. It's just supporter hyperbole IMO. It comes out after losses when emotions are high.
 

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Pretty damning for both the Club and also those buffons in the commentary team on Saturday night, was that a large part of the commentators discussion about our team was focused on our haircuts and beards.

We seriously have zero respect in the football community at the moment and I am totally unsure of what we are doing to regain it.

Funny thing is, that if Essendon lose their points, it only takes two wins, one vs Port and one vs Rich, for people to climb back on again. We have no respect at the moment because we are chronic underperformers.
 
The club's arrogance...."we are Carlton....**** the rest" got us the last decade of shit. If you get ahead of yourself, you fall over - our playing group has done it all year.

You can only afford to be arrogant when you are the best. I think us being tamed is the best thing that could happen (record breaking membership agrees with me). Yes we were backed into a corner, but what has grown out of that is a much better culture. Now if only the players would live up to the I AM Carlton mantra....and be ruthless on the field every week.
 
As the Greeks have wisely put it, the secret of life is to 'Avoid Excess'...
Not sure quoting Greeks and Greek historians is the best advice considering Greece is in more strife than Melbourne and Essendon.

If only Greece could make money from history.
 
Not sure quoting Greeks and Greek historians is the best advice considering Greece is in more strife than Melbourne and Essendon.

If only Greece could make money from history.


Ah, it's a quote from ancient Greece, which flourished for 400 years before Christ, so they must have been doing something right. The USA has barely been the #1 world power for 100 years yet and they're already floundering.

Modern Greece is a whole different (and less impressive) kettle of fish. I'm Greek, so I should know. :)
 
I've been very critical, and I believe with with justification, of Essendon's behaviour over their 2012 supplements program and their inconsistent and arrogant denial of responsibility throughout this year. The last thing our game needs is clubs failing in their duty of care in being unable to account for substances injected into young footy players, and that is before what is increasingly starting to look like a drug cheating/doping issue on top of the existing governance case (see Nick McKenzie's article in The Age this weekend).

However, the tone and various reactions inside and outside of the Essendon community have started me thinking about Carlton, our culture, what we have traditionally been and what we have become today.

A lot has been said of Carlton's 'arrogance', and that term has come to exclusively refer to the period prior to our 2002 sanctions for salary cap breaches. Remember the days of 'Pig's Arse', the days of Diesel, SOS, Mad Dog, and a supporter base that arrogantly despised its enemies and demanded only the toughest and best effort from those privileged enough to don the jumper?

The post - 2002 Carlton is a different Carlton. Ian Collins immediately brought in a culture of compliance with the AFL. Take the sanctions on the chin, don't question - take responsibility. All noble gestures and sentiments that, to a degree, I am proud of; particularly when I see the spin-laden, lack of care for players and their families coming from Windy Hill this year, and indeed a lack of care for the culture of the entire game.

But what in all of this have we lost? Were we 'tamed' by the AFL? Did we go to the Telstra Dome, like good corporate citizens, as we were told?; a deal that even Sticks hints at with regret. In the last decade, have we ever peeped up in the media about issues that the club doesn't agree with in the football community? It seems to me that (barring a slight return in this direction under Richard Pratt), Malthouse is the only one who has got the heart beating again in his media dealings with regard to taking some pride in our positions, popular or not. Yes, he can be a cantankerous and amusing old bugger. But when he was asked after our loss on Saturday night by an off camera journalist if he regretted suggesting that the AFL go hard on Essendon if they are found to have brought the game into disrepute - he threw everything at that ridiculous question - 'When did you join the Priesthood?' Yes a deliberately obtuse and combative response, but the fact remains, why, just because Essendon pinched a game off an undermanned (and yes lacklustre) Carlton, should any of us suddenly concede less penalties for their outrageous treatment of their own players and the game in general? The question was beyond stupid.

Like good corporate citizens too, following the pack in the mid 2000's, we invested heavily in obedient 'professional' players, mostly midfielders who were the flavour of the month, strong on flashy skills and low on grunt and arrogance. Now we wish for a Hodge, or like much of the list at Freo, a group that puts grunt, effort and determination ahead of waiting for a chance to show slick skills.

I was angry at Carlton on Saturday night. There was more than just a game at stake, more even than making the 8. There was a moral victory to be won here. The old Carlton would've denied Hird his glory moment; his 20 minutes of spin so he could crap on endlessly about himself about how joyous everyone is at Windy Hill (devastated mum's calling Triple M aside).

Sometimes, I wish for that arrogance back, and yes, some of that arrogant culture that is driving Essendon (although I would never wish it to be as misguided as they are). Arrogance drives a supporter base to have pride, and maybe after ten years of being tamed, it's time finally for us to regain our status and foster a culture that can, by it's nature, demand higher levels of commitment, toughness, and yes, fear from our players - fear that they are not meeting the demands of a proud football club and a passionate supporter base.

There is no time like the present for the proud, old dark Blues.

Essendon is our nearest competitor for most premierships ever. They have done more damage to themselves in the last 24 months than even their worst enemy could plot for them. It's time for us to remember the many incredible players, both living and absent, made us at least the equal most successful club in our game.

In conversation with Mike Sheehan, Greg Williams was asked what it was like to coach a hero of the game like Chris Judd. What could you possibly say to him, Sheehan asked. "I just said he's not as good a ball handler as he thinks he is."

I want some of that back.
Email this to the club. Well written JTF. Kudos mate!
 
The club's arrogance...."we are Carlton....**** the rest" got us the last decade of shit. If you get ahead of yourself, you fall over - our playing group has done it all year.

You can only afford to be arrogant when you are the best. I think us being tamed is the best thing that could happen (record breaking membership agrees with me). Yes we were backed into a corner, but what has grown out of that is a much better culture. Now if only the players would live up to the I AM Carlton mantra....and be ruthless on the field every week.


SV, I agree with your sentiments, but I think the word arrogance is being a too narrowly interpreted here.

I was at pains in the OP not to promote the degree or type of arrogance that we are witnessing at Essendon.

I also take your point about what comes first, the arrogance or the success?

I would argue it could go both ways. Barassi brought the 'arrogance' of success to a depleted Carlton that was on it's knees in the mid '60's. His influence directly lead to decades of success in the 'modern football era'. It might be argued that Malthouse with his career results, attitude and proven history of getting the most out of lists brings some of that attitude with him.

I agree that we need to make our point on the field but I also think the administration sets the tone for success. An articulate, forceful and unequivocally pro Carlton leadership off field could play a huge role in this.
 

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agree with most posters we have a pretty soft team @ the minute, the loss on sat night just confirmed we have a team that too often loses games that they should not

but things turn; the blues were a great club to follow in the 70's, 80's & 90's... no club (incl Hawthorn) gave their supporters more

geelong could not win a gf for 40 years and then won 3/5

the swans barely won a game in the early 90's and have pretty consistent for a decade now

and when you are really down think of richmond... they are playing just their 3rd final series in 30 years
 
Ah, it's a quote from ancient Greece, which flourished for 400 years before Christ, so they must have been doing something right. The USA has barely been the #1 world power for 100 years yet and they're already floundering.

Modern Greece is a whole different (and less impressive) kettle of fish. I'm Greek, so I should know. :)

the plumbing is the same in modern Greece as it was in ancient times hence wallowing in poo
 
Arrogance without substance is a waste.


This a thousand times.

We simply have nothing to be arrogant about at the moment. I don't mean that in the sense we don't have the playing stocks to be boastful (come to think of it, we don't have that either).

What we lack is the requisite club culture for us to be arrogant. Our players don't will themselves to win like Carlton teams of old. They aren't forced to play within the culture of the Carlton Football Club; uncompromising, selfless and disgusted at the thought of mediocrity.

Look at the Swans - players are forced, no ifs or buts, to adopt the club mantra or they are castaway from the club and swiftly shown the door. We don't do that. Look at how much dead weight we have carried on our playing list for so long over the last 10 years.

We can't be arrogant in isolation of other required traits, the most important being a ruthless desire to win at all costs.*

* within the rules of the game. Someone should tell Essendon about that.
 
OK. I'll put out there. A solid example of what I'm talking about.

The CFC instructed our players to under no circumstances sledge the Essendon players last Saturday night about the club doping scandal.

I think this was very, very wrong.

Football is as psychological as it is physical.

Make no mistake. Essendon's on field performances this year have been, to a large extent driven by the scandal; by their desperation, their sense of indignation, their sense that they are right and everyone else is wrong.

We needed to attack that as much as the football. We should've had a goal to take this bullshit moral crusade out of their game.

This new 'nicer', well-behaved Carlton is all well and good. But nice guys finish last.

As Brisbane's coach, Leigh Matthews knew that he was breeding success when he explained to his players (soon to become triple premiers) 'If it bleeds, we can kill it'.
 
This a thousand times.

We simply have nothing to be arrogant about at the moment. I don't mean that in the sense we don't have the playing stocks to be boastful (come to think of it, we don't have that either).

What we lack is the requisite club culture for us to be arrogant. Our players don't will themselves to win like Carlton teams of old. They aren't forced to play within the culture of the Carlton Football Club; uncompromising, selfless and disgusted at the thought of mediocrity.

Look at the Swans - players are forced, no ifs or buts, to adopt the club mantra or they are castaway from the club and swiftly shown the door. We don't do that. Look at how much dead weight we have carried on our playing list for so long over the last 10 years.

We can't be arrogant in isolation of other required traits, the most important being a ruthless desire to win at all costs.*

* within the rules of the game. Someone should tell Essendon about that.
Would help if we knew what our mantra was - or whether we even have one atm.
 

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