Tassie football in crisis (again)

[BringBackTorps]

Don't confuse PR statements with what people actually think.[So you believe AFL officials are lying, including to PM Turnbull & B.Shorten, when the AFL has said recently {paraphrasing} "When expansion occurs next, Tasmania will probably be the next team". I now believe you are trolling -you have exposed yourself.
It is virtually impossible for me to negate your desperate, nonsensical line of arguing: " The AFL is just telling lies"]
Crisis is another matter entirely though. For that to be so it would need to be majorly out of proportion to the rest of the country.
[The decline in Tas. male GR AF is majorly out of proportion to the rest of the country. The recent The Mercury articles, above, reinforce this]
Not to mention Benny Gale, past player and our current CEO....but show me where in the Richmond articles of association it says we have a responsibility to anything like that? We're no more responsible to Tasmania for the players we recruited from there than we are to Nathalia for Francis Bourke.[Country Vic. teams/GR players have the beneficial resources/pathways etc. of AFL clubs in their states- Tas. does NOT! It is absurd for you to attempt to deny that AFL clubs do have a strong moral responsibility to promote the game, and not hurt GR AF]

www.afl.com.au/news/2018-07-26/hockings-club-visits-paying-dividends-aflca
This article reinforces that AFL Clubs & Club Officials have a moral responsibility to promote the game, and not hurt GR AF.
"Underlying it all is a view that the best interests of the game has to prevail"- perhaps AFLCA boss M. Brayshaw is also lying?

I cannot be bothered engaging with you on your other deflections & feeble "arguments".

I was initially going to discuss with you the views of The Age E. Quayle & Tas. State Academy coach A. Sanders, which demolish your views.

Quayle said "There is a also a feeling in Tasmania that while kids in the northern states are benefiting from the HEAVILY RESOURCED (my emphasis), Club-based academy programs (Local AFL Club !! GWS, SFC, GC, & BFC- my words), theirs have been neglected and are falling behind, at pace". This is clear proof of the damage caused to Tas. due to not having its OWN AFL club.
But you will probably "argue" that Quayle is lying.

Quayle writes " Sanders feels the gap is widening (cf GWS, SFC, GC, & BFC Academy jnrs. -my words) because his boys (Tas. Academy jnrs.- my words) have access to less things the northern kids now get: full time coaching staff, long term development programs, other resources, games together, and insight into AFL PLAYERS' LIVES (my emphasis) that the Academy players get such a good glimpse of".

It is, therefore, incontrovertible that the lack of a resident AFL club in Tas. is severely hurting their elite jnr. development.
But you will probably "argue" that Quayle (now on GWS Development staff) & Sanders are lying.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl...-the-tasmanian-prospects-20160526-gp4vk7.html

 

[Kwality]

But you will probably "argue" that Quayle (now on GWS Development staff) & Sanders are lying.

Having a different opinion does not infer the other person is lying, & in this case its the result on Tas footy at all levels that is in question.

 

[BringBackTorps]

Having a different opinion does not infer the other person is lying, & in this case its the result on Tas footy at all levels that is in question

I never said that because Telsor (nor anyone else, for that matter) has a different opinion to mine, therefore that in itself indicates Telsor is lying.

In his reply at # 566 above (to my comments that Demetriou & Mclachlan -& by extension the Commission- have both said that "when expansion occurs next, Tasmania will probably be the next team". I asked Telsor "What do you know that the Demetriou & McLachlan don't?"), Telsor claimed that the AFL are being deliberately duplicitous in their comments to the people of Tas. Telsor states the AFL, privately, don't really want a Tas. AFL team, so it won't happen.

Telsor is also claiming that PM Turnbull & Federal ALP Leader Shorten who, significantly, have both recently & publicly announced they are strongly in favour of an AFL team, are also being duplicitous.

 

[madmug]

I never said that because Telsor (nor anyone else, for that matter) has a different opinion to mine, therefore that in itself indicates Telsor is lying.

In his reply at # 566 above (to my comments that Demetriou & Mclachlan -& by extension the Commission- have both said that "when expansion occurs next, Tasmania will probably be the next team". I asked Telsor "What do you know that the Demetriou & McLachlan don't?"), Telsor claimed that the AFL are being deliberately duplicitous in their comments to the people of Tas. Telsor states the AFL, privately, don't really want a Tas. AFL team.

Telsor is also claiming that PM Turnbull & Federal ALP Leader Shorten who, significantly, have both recently & publicly announced they are strongly in favour of an AFL team, are also being duplicitous.

It goes without saying that most politicians are by their nature & actions, duplicitous. Theirs been no reason nor excuse for the AFLs similar behavior. They claim to be a NFP organisation that took all power & control of the game unto themselves. They are not a FP organisation. However they act like a corporate operator when it suits them. And they wonder why they get criticised.

 

[Kwality]

It goes without saying that most politicians are by their nature & actions, duplicitous. Theirs been no reason nor excuse for the AFLs similar behavior. They claim to be a NFP organisation that took all power & control of the game unto themselves. They are not a FP organisation. However they act like a corporate operator when it suits them. And they wonder why they get criticised.

If you followed the utterances of the AFL CEO this week you would have to concede Gils view of integrity is whatever he wants - yet he is never called on it by a fawning media pack.

 

[Kwality]

Telsor is also claiming that PM Turnbull & Federal ALP Leader Shorten who, significantly, have both recently & publicly announced they are strongly in favour of an AFL team, are also being duplicitous.

Powerful thought process at play, a campaigning politician saying something the voters want to hear - got that right telsor !!

 

[BringBackTorps]

Powerful thought process at play, a campaigning politician saying something the voters want to hear [Exactly! Both major Federal parties are now advocating, very publicly & strongly, to all the Tas. voters for a Tas. AFL team.
!!LNP vs. ALP!!
Now a PERMANENT FEDERAL political agenda item -it can't be withdrawn] - got that right telsor !!

 

[The_Wookie]

Now a PERMANENT FEDERAL political agenda item -it can't be withdrawn

hahaha

 

[madmug]

The fact that so many politicians have taken notice is a good thing. The AFL boys club won't like the harsh light shone on their little cabal. The more the public actually see of how this 'club' works for themselves, the better chance of some fairness & equity will come out of it.

Clearly Gil hates the attention on his ignorant & pathetic 'AFL centred' response to the situation here. So between the political & media attention I hope some longer term good will eventuate for the game here.

Remember that their are a number of issues that are not mutually exclusive, but individually need attention one way or the other. The 'health' of the local game, which is what brought this all on. The AFLs affect on that, which to a greater or lesser extentmapplies to all levels of football outside the AFL. The much touted pathway of players & umpires which the AFL via AFLTas have bashed into us for decades, yet have themselves done SFA while it has broken down. And the issue of an AFL club, which would alleviate the other issues should it eventuate.

Yesterday here it was a fine, bright & sunny winters day. Great for local footy, & some gardening!! Today its raining this morning. By 1pm I hope it pisses down on North Melbourne at Bellerive. Nothing personal, but I wish they'd fcough.

 

[BringBackTorps]

In other words, this isnt a quote you can pinpoint. You cant show any context, and for all we know its something you invented.[No]
As it did everywhere else in the country.[Yes. The VFL/AFL HAS hurt Vic., WA, SA 2nd tiers, regional comps.] Again, why is Tasmania some sort of special case?

SEN Radio 7.8 Whateley Program

Whateley played the June 1985 interview on the Sunday World Of Sport where Allan Jeans & Tom Hafey were interviewed on the day after L.Matthews' punch that broke N.Bruns jaw (which had created a huge public & media furore). The interview is on sen.com.au

Jeans said, in reference to this intense scrutiny/coverage/condemnation, "Once you take on this position (ie a VFL Club coach -my words), we have a responsibility to the game".
VFL/AFL Clubs, coaches & players have a strong moral responsibility to promote the game, & not hurt GR AF. AFLCA CEO Mark Brayshaw, at post #576 above, supports this view as have other coaches. It would be absurd to dispute this view.

Apart from Tasmania, "everywhere else in the country" have their OWN AFL team. It is this lack of its OWN AFL Club that is causing great damage to GR & elite Tasmanian AF. This view is supported by E.Quayle- expert on elite junior AF, & A.Sanders- Tas. State Academy Coach. Also at post# 576. I doubt any AFL expert would dispute this view.

 

[robbieando]

SEN Radio 7.8 Whateley Program

Whateley played the June 1985 interview on the Sunday World Of Sport where Allan Jeans & Tom Hafey were interviewed on the day after L.Matthews' punch that broke N.Bruns jaw (which had created a huge public & media furore). The interview is on sen.com.au

Jeans said, in reference to this intense scrutiny/coverage/condemnation, "Once you take on this position (ie a VFL Club coach -my words), we have a responsibility to the game".
VFL/AFL Clubs, coaches & players have a strong moral responsibility to promote the game, & not hurt GR AF. AFLCA CEO Mark Brayshaw, at post #576 above, supports this view as have other coaches. It would be absurd to dispute this view.

Apart from Tasmania, "everywhere else in the country" have their OWN AFL team. It is this lack of its OWN AFL Club that is causing great damage to GR & elite Tasmanian AF. This view is supported by E.Quayle- expert on elite junior AF, & A.Sanders- Tas. State Academy Coach. Also at post# 576. I doubt any AFL expert would dispute this view.

You truly are a special case.

Using the words of a dead person from over 30 years ago in the context of someone he coached king hitting another player as a reason to give Tasmania a team is the stupidest thing I've read on Big Footy and that is saying something

 

[madmug]

You truly are a special case.

Using the words of a dead person from over 30 years ago in the context of someone he coached king hitting another player as a reason to give Tasmania a team is the stupidest thing I've read on Big Footy and that is saying something

Lots of people quote the words of dead people. The bible being one notable example.

Of course he was using the section on their belief the VFL (now AFL) has the responsibility to not damage GR & community football. The context is irrelevant, the overall meaning is clear.

 

[robbieando]

Lots of people quote the words of dead people. The bible being one notable example.

Of course he was using the section on their belief the VFL (now AFL) has the responsibility to not damage GR & community football. The context is irrelevant, the overall meaning is clear.

Nope. He places the responsibility at the foot of the clubs, players and coaches. So very clear

 

[madmug]

Nope. He places the responsibility at the foot of the clubs, players and coaches. So very clear

Well the AFL itself claims 'ultimate decision making responsibility for all elements of the game'.

I guess that only applies when it suits them.

 

[The_Wookie]

Well the AFL itself claims 'ultimate decision making responsibility for all elements of the game'.

I guess that only applies when it suits them.

It also only applies when the state bodies like the SANFL and WAFC - and until 2011, Football Tasmania - want it to.

 

[BringBackTorps]

Nope. He places the responsibility at the foot of the clubs, players and coaches. [No. I said the AFL has primary responsibility for promoting GR generally, & restoring Tas. AF; & Clubs have a moral responsibility.]So very clear

You are misrepresenting what I said.

Did you read above all that I wrote, including the citations from experts supporting my views? Why are you ignoring/discounting the above professional expert views- which negate your views on (1) Reasons for Tas. AF's plight & (2) VFL/AFL Club strong, moral responsibilities to promote the game, and not hurt the GR?

The AFL is the self-proclaimed keeper of the code, which, obviously, includes strongly promoting GR AF. This is the legal reason, recognising its Not For Profit status & proritised GR responsibilities, it has tax-free status. It is clearly significantly FAILING in its responsibilities in Tas. The once great Tas. VFL/AFL recruitment goldmine has shrivelled, the once great TSL is almost dying, & its male GR comp. player nos. are in a steep, worrying decline.

I said VFL/AFL Clubs have carpetbagged Tas. AF, taking their best players for many decades- demoralising/whiteanting the TSL, pathways, & GR AF. The Clubs share a moral responsibility for this decline. Other AF experts have said (which I concur) that Tas. having its OWN AFL team would rectify these structural flaws.

I, & others, have said the VFL/AFL Club, coaches, players have a strong moral responsibility to promote the game, & not hurt GR AF. No VFL/AFL Clubs have ever denied this. I never said this was the Clubs' primary responsibility.
A recognition of their responsibilities are the Clubs' their involvement in the Next Generation Academy multicultural recruitment programs.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/game-development/nab-afl-rising-star-program/nga-clubacademies

Players/Clubs also have a legal/contractual responsibility to regularly visit junior AF Clubs (minimum no. of Player visits pa); and are covered by Rules against Bringing the Game Into Disrepute.

AFL Clubs accept they are GR AF role models, & have a moral responsibility to promote the game, & not hurt GR AF. AFLW Licence holders know they are obliged to promote female GR AF.
AFL Clubs have annual, regional Community Camps; & most establish direct links with local GR Leagues.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/the-kids-are-watching-20180808-p4zwa7.html

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/club/community/grassroots-football

By not allowing Tas. to have its own AFL team (with all the concomitant resources/elite training/prestige), the carpetbaggers have committed a sin of omission. The AFL is preventing Tas. from fighting back, to restore the health of its much-fabled GR & elite pathways.

The VFL/AFL Clubs' sin of comission was to strip away Tas. best players, leaving just a hopelessly disadvantaged AF shell. The Clubs have abrogated their strong moral responsibility to promote the game, & not hurt GR AF.
It is absurd for you to deny the Clubs have this strong moral responsibility.

 

[madmug]

It also only applies when the state bodies like the SANFL and WAFC - and until 2011, Football Tasmania - want it to.

Tassie footy has been dominated by the actions & effects of the AFL for 30 years. The TFL died because it couldn't survive the onslaught of the rising media dominance of the AFL. It couldn't adjust like SANFL & WAFL who received substantial financial support from their AFL licences.

No such luck here. The footy heads here were defacto AFL operatives. They had to be to get paid & survive. That was merely confirmed when AFLTas were 'officially' consumed by the AFL.

The current woes of Tassie footy can be firmly laid at the AFL's door. Their response simply confirms their AFL first & only considerations. VFL & FT mariners are for the AFL, not for our football. So much for care of GR or their own TSL competition.

The decision to end clearance payments has increased the free for all of VFL & NEAFL taking of whatever talent they can find here. The cabbage patch approach to development. NEAFL are heavily funded to develop players in the north of the nation. All this has added to the decimation of our football.

The AFL's arrogance, ignorance & Vicentric suburban self interest & the results here are clear for anyone with an IQ greater than a bus ticket to see.

 

[BringBackTorps]

Tassie footy has been dominated by the actions & effects of the AFL for 30 years. The TFL died because it couldn't survive the onslaught of the rising media dominance of the AFL. It couldn't adjust like SANFL & WAFL who received substantial financial support from their AFL licences. No such luck here. The footy heads here were defacto AFL operatives. They had to be to get paid & survive. That was merely confirmed when AFLTas were 'officially' consumed by the AFL.
The current woes of Tassie footy can be firmly laid at the AFL's door. Their response simply confirms their AFL first & only considerations. {VFL & FT mariners are for the AFL, not for our football. So much for care of GR or their own TSL competition.}{Why?]
The decision to end clearance payments has increased the free for all of VFL & NEAFL taking of whatever talent they can find here. The cabbage patch approach to development. NEAFL are heavily funded to develop players in the north of the nation. All this has added to the decimation of our football.

Most Tas. AF experts would agree with most of your above comments.

I question your apparent view that a TASMANIAN VFL side, & U18 Mariners playing a full season in the TAC, will not deliver a net benefit for the TSL, elite pathways & GR AF. They should not be mutually exclusive.
(I am aware that, previously, the NMFC Tas. VFL side initially attracted great crowds up to 13,000, when it was playing primarily to win. Later, NMFC began to use its VFL side primarily as a training/game strategy exercise, winning was secondary -VERY disrespectful to long-suffering Tas. fans, & the disillusioned crowds crashed)

With more expert TSL training/coaching -& the AFL contributing to a higher TSL salary caps to make it attractive for top Tas. players to want to play in the TSL -the TSL will rise in popularity/standard/ prestige.
There should be more expert, full time coaching of a Tas. VFL side & U 18 TAC Mariners (playing a full season in the TAC) -with most of the elite (ie a minority) VFL adult footballer & staff salaries paid by the AFL, & airfares for everyone paid for by the AFL. The Tas. VFL team & U18 Mariners will play half their games in Hobart & Lonny.

An increase in AFL-paid TSL player payments should be dependant on objective, measureable increased minimum skill criteria being met by TSL players. These pay increases can be phased in; & it will almost certainly be necessary to introduce a more lengthy & much more rigorous TSL pre-season etc.
Such has been the neglect & VFL/AFL pillaging, it will probably take at least 3 years to achieve a competitive Tas. VFL team

 

[The_Wookie]

The AFL's arrogance, ignorance & Vicentric suburban self interest & the results here are clear for anyone with an IQ greater than a bus ticket to see.

Given every expansion team since the 80s has been a non victorian one to the point that almost half the league is now based out of Victoria, given the league forced out a foundation victorian club in the 90s, and given the league set up teams in Qld and NSW while spending hundreds of millions on development programs up there, all the while spending more on non victorian state competitions than it did in on the VFL/VFA/TAC Cup (up until 2011 at least), Im not sure how you arrive at Vic centric anything.

 

[telsor]

Given every expansion team since the 80s has been a non victorian one to the point that almost half the league is now based out of Victoria, given the league forced out a foundation victorian club in the 90s, and given the league set up teams in Qld and NSW while spending hundreds of millions on development programs up there, all the while spending more on non victorian state competitions than it did in on the VFL/VFA/TAC Cup (up until 2011 at least), Im not sure how you arrive at Vic centric anything.

I think the 'how' is pretty clear...

There is clearly a shortage of tinfoil hats in Tas.


BTW. Win TV has apparently moved it's Tas news bulletin...It'll now be shot in Woolongong. Of course, this has nothing to do with Tas being a small and (relatively) shrinking economy & population, but rather is just another example of the evil AFL/Victorians hurting Tasmania.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-07/win-axes-tas-local-news-production/10085224

 

[madmug]

Most Tas. AF experts would agree with your above comments.

I question your apparent view that a TASMANIAN VFL side, & U18 Mariners playing a full season in the TAC, will not deliver a net benefit for the TSL, elite pathways & GR AF. They should not be mutually exclusive.
(I am aware that, previously, the NMFC Tas. VFL side attracted great crowds up to 13,000, when it was playing primarily to win. Later, NMFC began to use its VFL side primarily as a training/game strategy exercise, winning was secondary -VERY disrespectful to long-suffering Tas. fans, & the disillusioned crowds crashed)

With more expert TSL training/coaching -& the AFL contributing to a higher TSL salary caps to make it attractive for top Tas. players to want to play in the TSL -the TSL will rise in popularity/standard/ prestige.
There should be more expert, full time coaching of a Tas. VFL side & U 18 TAC Mariners (playing a full season in the TAC) -with most of the adult footballer & staff salaries paid by the AFL, & airfares for everyone paid for by the AFL. The Tas. VFL team & U18 Mariners will play half their games in Hobart & Lonny.

An increase in AFL-paid TSL player payments should be dependant on objective, measureable increased minimum skill criteria being met by TSL players. These pay increases can be phased in; & it will almost certainly be necessary to introduce a more lengthy & much rigorous TSL pre-season etc. Such has been the neglect & VFL/AFL pillaging, it will probably take at least 3 years to achieve a competitive Tas. VFL team

The VFL team was created & killed by AFLTas & was really thought as a step to the AFL. It clearly wasn't, this one won't be either, so why bother spending such sums on flying 35 people about the countryside each week. A small increase in the TSL funding would be far cheaper & see money spent in the community, not on air fares & accommodation.

The FT mariners made the players near FT themselves. It was a 10 months of the year effort to travel about the state to train, then practice games, then flying about for this & the u18 series & all the various training venues throughout the tate over the season.. I asked some club people who were involved with the those kids at the time & they said the kids were sick of footy after the experience. lots never played after or just went to local footy. It was a big waste of the investment. I'm told the scouts see them enough in u18 games, which is 1/2 the season. Then they go back to clubs & less stress around exam times.

Again the VFL is just a con job to kick the AFL team idea down the road again, again. The VFL itself has a very doubtful future with the AFL clubs only wanting to develop players & not interested in competition & the other teams in the league.

 

[madmug]

Given every expansion team since the 80s has been a non victorian one to the point that almost half the league is now based out of Victoria, given the league forced out a foundation victorian club in the 90s, and given the league set up teams in Qld and NSW while spending hundreds of millions on development programs up there, all the while spending more on non victorian state competitions than it did in on the VFL/VFA/TAC Cup (up until 2011 at least), Im not sure how you arrive at Vic centric anything.

Yes 'non Vic' teams based in NSW & Qld run by the AFL for the AFL, & for the media rights, all from Melbourne. Its what keeps a number of the suburban clubs in Victoria alive. WA & SA get the same number of clubs as NSW & Qld, despite the fact they are far stronger AR states.

Explain that without a Vic Centric bias.

 

[madmug]

I think the 'how' is pretty clear...

There is clearly a shortage of tinfoil hats in Tas.


BTW. Win TV has apparently moved it's Tas news bulletin...It'll now be shot in Woolongong. Of course, this has nothing to do with Tas being a small and (relatively) shrinking economy & population, but rather is just another example of the evil AFL/Victorians hurting Tasmania.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-07/win-axes-tas-local-news-production/10085224

Theirs clearly no shortage of rose coloured glasses in Vic though.

Losing local win news production is one thing. Maybe losing a car industry from Victoria might be considered a bigger deal by some. But why mention that ay? That'd be petty wouldn't it.

 

[The_Wookie]

Yes 'non Vic' teams based in NSW & Qld run by the AFL for the AFL, & for the media rights, all from Melbourne.

Those media rights are worth far more than Tasmanian ones are. Tasmanian football audiences are 1) considered regional and 2) are less than WA regional audiences. They are literally the smallest measured AFL market.

Its what keeps a number of the suburban clubs in Victoria alive.

And Brisbane, Gold Coast, Sydney, GWS...and for a little while before Adelaide Oval opened, Port Adelaide. I know though, Vic Bias right.

WA & SA get the same number of clubs as NSW & Qld, despite the fact they are far stronger AR states.

Strength of the game in any given state was never a major determining factor in who received a license to be in the AFL. WA and SA got teams because the business case satisfied the AFL. Ditto Queensland and NSW. Tasmania hasnt at any stage. And thats all that matters in this scenario - the AFL has to be satisfied. Its their competition, not the Goodwill Games.

Explain that without a Vic Centric bias.

Apparently having teams and developing the game in queensland and nsw is vic centric. And Im the one with the bias. My sides.

Since 1987

* expanded nationally despite an almost even split between the clubs that required a desperate Fitzroy to be bribed in order to get over the line.
* added two Western Australian teams
* added two South Australian teams
* added two Queensland teams
* added one New South Wales/ACT team
* bought the Swans out twice, and kept them running in the face of considerable opposition from Vic clubs
* added SA and WA representatives to the AFL Commission.
* had CEOs from SA, and the current chairman is from WA.
* continue to bail out Brisbane to the tune of millions every year.
* continue to spend tens of millions on Gold Coast and GWS annually
* applied additional funding to Adelaide and Port Adelaide via the SANFL for more than 3 years leading up to Adelaide Oval move.
* bailed out and overhauled AFL NT, AFL Tas, AFL NSW, AFL ACT and AFL Qld.
* spent tens of millions on development programs in NSW and the ACT
* spent tens of millions annually on funding state bodies outside Victoria, including facilities funding and subsidies.
* taken matches out of Victoria to the NT, Tasmania, ACT, Cairns, and New Zealand.
* forcibly merged a foundation Victorian side with Brisbane.
* renegotiated the 1988 MCG Contract to enable all finals except the Grand Final to be played outside Victoria.

 

[BobbyMorri]

BTW. Win TV has apparently moved it's Tas news bulletin...It'll now be shot in Woolongong. Of course, this has nothing to do with Tas being a small and (relatively) shrinking economy & population, but rather is just another example of the evil AFL/Victorians hurting Tasmania.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-07/win-axes-tas-local-news-production/10085224

Or it could be the internet destroying traditional forms of media and WIN news trying to centralise production to save costs, which is a lot easier to do nowadays with digital media

God, you talk a lot of crap. What has Win news got to do with anything in this area?

Also, the VFL is now the FIFA(etc governing body) of Aussie Rules. It SHOULD look to the health of football in other states. It is their JOB!!!!!

Just like how WCE/Brisbane saved the VFL back in the 80's.