Play Nice The 'all things Carlton' mega-thread

[davis_756]

My post said prospects outside first round picks. Comprehension, it might help ya know

That is EVERY pick he has had for us, do you not know how to read either?

 

[The Daicos]

He has a great eye for talent. His wife still looks hot after all these years.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

He has a great eye for talent. His wife still looks hot after all these years.

They've passed on their good looks to their sons.

Jack looks like Jo circa Sale of the Century.

 

[Keilor Tiger]

Back on topic, I’ll give my 2cents worth. No recruiting mgr earns his money with 1st round selections. The draft with the control by afl (by way of U18 competition, draft combine etc) means the first round is already done - save a little juggling in position but names are the same. Round 2 a bit less certain and later rounds where the good recruiters make a difference. In SOS,s case he had so many early picks at GWS and now at Carlton he really hasn’t had opportunity to show his eye for talent with later picks.
As a list manager I thought he did a great job in manipulating the early picks giants had and even though a lot have now moved on they have some deep top end talent which he should be congratulated on.
At the blues I’m not as impressed. His focus on raiding the giants list has in my opinion taken his eye off the other talent available. The blues have had some real list cloggers such as Lamb, Phillips, Jaksch, Sumner, Palmer etc that have come from GWS (yes some have now moved on) that I don’t think SOS has proved himself to be an astute list manager.
A good list manager can build a list without a leg up. Giants had so many early picks they had & needed the leg up. Graham Wright , Kinnear Beatson, Stephen Wells and to a lesser extent Richmond’s Blair Hartley have built premiership lists without assistance of extra draft picks by way of targeted player raids, a bit of gold with late & rookie picks and some smart recruiting (and a bit of luck along the way) so SOS has a long way to go before he should be considered a successful recruiting and list manager.

 

[DangerousD]

draft capital on guys like Marchbank, Weitering and Plowman

Now they're going to have to spend a lot of draft capital drafting midfielders which is going to take a long time.

You make a few good points but a these two points are flawed. We used a pick 1 on Weitering as he was widely considered the best in the draft, hindsight says we should have taken Charlie at 1 or Oliver but neither was ever consider a number 1 pick. Plowman was brought in for next to nothing so im not sure you have put him in the same bad as the other two.

Your last point as well is a bit off, everyone knows that key position players take longer to develop, if you get them right, hopefully we have. So to say getting mids in will take a long time is not true, mids make a larger contribution quicker than a key forward or back.

 

[Rich01]

SOS Trades and Free Agents:

Wins- Wright, Plowman, Marchbank.

Jury Out- Kennedy, Lang, Pickett.

Losses - Dan Gorringe, Lamb, Phillips, Sumner, Kerridge, Smedts, Palmer, Lobbe

3 guys who will be part of the team as it rebuilds, with another three that are also likely as contributors moving forward.

8 others who have been traded in and most likely delisted within 3 years.

For so many trades that’s nothing to write home about.

 

[PendlePie]

SOS Trades and Free Agents:

Wins- Wright, Plowman, Marchbank.

Jury Out- Kennedy, Lang, Pickett.

Losses - Dan Gorringe, Lamb, Phillips, Sumner, Kerridge, Smedts, Palmer, Lobbe

3 guys who will be part of the team as it rebuilds, with another three that are also likely as contributors moving forward.

8 others who have been traded in and most likely delisted within 3 years.

For so many trades that’s nothing to write home about.

Don’t forget Jaksch

 

[De Iulio2Wiggins]

Losses - Dan Gorringe, Lamb, Phillips, Sumner, Kerridge, Smedts, Palmer, Lobbe

Lobbe is injured. At his best (2014), he's a serviceable tap ruck.

The rest are steak knives, speculative trades to shore up a dumpster fire of a list with no developed mid-career players, and salary dumps to facilitate other trades.

The problems at Carlton aren't Silvagni's list management - it's a combination of the long term effects of Wayne Hughes' drafting, a complacent club structure and the Malthouse Effect. Take four critical A/B+ players out of an already thin list (Murphy, Gibbs, Docherty, Marchbank), and you're left with the current disaster.

 

[RudyBlue]

Don’t forget Jaksch

He traded Jaksch to Carlton...So that's a win?

 

[Benny78]

His head has never been the same since Milburn jumped into it.

 

[PendlePie]

He traded Jaksch to Carlton...So that's a win?

Thought Jaksch was part of the Sumner deal?

 

[Blue Heart]

Don’t forget Jaksch

He was a Malthouse recruiting selection.

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

Thought Jaksch was part of the Sumner deal?

carlton traded pick 7 in 2014 to GWS in exchange for whiley, jacksh and pick 19 which was used on boekhurst.

so a top 10 pick in the 2014 draft which should be one of the pillars of the rebuild yielded absolutely nothing. That was on malthouse's watch

 

[De Iulio2Wiggins]

Thought Jaksch was part of the Sumner deal?

No. Sumner came as steak knives when SOS turned Henderson (pick 14 2016) + pick 28 (2015) into Plowman + pick 8 (2015).

 

[YeOldTiger]

Fair dinkum, a bloke would have to be a rocket surgeon to follow SOS's intricate trading machinations. Or a degree. Trying to get your head around the deals he works out, (they need to be written as time and motion studies or physics equations or something) is like trying to piece together a broken windscreen with bare hands. Painful !

Sure hope it works in the end or pfffft.

 

[living_in_syd]

He traded Jaksch to Carlton...So that's a win?

He did well in tbe yarran trade so thats a win

 

[Farm Boy]

No. Sumner came as steak knives when SOS turned Henderson (pick 14 2016) + pick 28 (2015) into Plowman + pick 8 (2015).

Which turned out to be Harry McKay. That could work.

 

[Rich01]

Lobbe is injured. At his best (2014), he's a serviceable tap ruck.

The rest are steak knives, speculative trades to shore up a dumpster fire of a list with no developed mid-career players, and salary dumps to facilitate other trades.

The problems at Carlton aren't Silvagni's list management - it's a combination of the long term effects of Wayne Hughes' drafting, a complacent club structure and the Malthouse Effect. Take four critical A/B+ players out of an already thin list (Murphy, Gibbs, Docherty, Marchbank), and you're left with the current disaster.

He traded those players in only for them all to be delisted or close to three years later. Can’t blame Hughes for that.

Give him the wins- Marchbank, Plowman, Wright, but he should take responsibility for picking up those 8 list cloggers as well.

Gibbs was under contract and SOS let him go- that was his call. Can’t whinge about missing him when you traded him out for picks.

 

[pinot]

He traded those players in only for them all to be delisted or close to three years later. Can’t blame Hughes for that.

Give him the wins- Marchbank, Plowman, Wright, but he should take responsibility for picking up those 8 list cloggers as well.

Gibbs was under contract and SOS let him go- that was his call. Can’t whinge about missing him when you traded him out for picks.

This is a misconcecption of sorts. Firstly we had clear out the decks on our current list and bring in players on one year contracts. The reason being is to protect the list and turn these players over.

Shaw and Silvagni are rookies

Oshea and Mullet are on one year deals.. they will make way for kids in the draft we can not draft 15 players in one year and have such young skinny bodies on every line. We needed some AFL experience on one year contracts that will eventually make way for draft picks.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

SOS Trades and Free Agents:

Wins- Wright, Plowman, Marchbank.

Jury Out- Kennedy, Lang, Pickett.

Losses - Dan Gorringe, Lamb, Phillips, Sumner, Kerridge, Smedts, Palmer, Lobbe

3 guys who will be part of the team as it rebuilds, with another three that are also likely as contributors moving forward.

8 others who have been traded in and most likely delisted within 3 years.

For so many trades that’s nothing to write home about.

Now have a look at how much all those players cost us in terms of picks and salary cap space.
I'll give you a hint, it starts with 'F' and ends with 'uck all'.
All of the guys in the losses were never really intended targets, they were a means to an end.
Phillips would have been wanted as back up for Kreuz (Plowman was the main target though), but as it turns out, Kreuz has stayed fairly healthy and Phillips has had injury troubles. Can't predict that stuff. Bit harsh on Lobbe considering he's been at the club for all of 5 minutes and Port could really use him right about now.

 

[GreyCrow]

Gibbs was under contract and SOS let him go- that was his call. Can’t whinge about missing him when you traded him out for picks.

This is going to be the future of football. Contracts v Trading. Give a player an extra year on a contract ( that you think they deserve/play) if they blossom then you use that last year as a trading chip.

In the future not many clubs will allow a star to move uncontracted.

 

[SickQwon]

Fair dinkum, a bloke would have to be a rocket surgeon to follow SOS's intricate trading machinations. Or a degree. Trying to get your head around the deals he works out, (they need to be written as time and motion studies or physics equations or something) is like trying to piece together a broken windscreen with bare hands. Painful !

Sure hope it works in the end or pfffft.

He uses trading strategies that have been a standard in sports all around the world for many decades. Salary dumping isn’t a difficult concept and it benefits both teams in different positions.

 

[Rich01]

Now have a look at how much all those players cost us in terms of picks and salary cap space.
I'll give you a hint, it starts with 'F' and ends with 'uck all'.
All of the guys in the losses were never really intended targets, they were a means to an end.
Phillips would have been wanted as back up for Kreuz (Plowman was the main target though), but as it turns out, Kreuz has stayed fairly healthy and Phillips has had injury troubles. Can't predict that stuff. Bit harsh on Lobbe considering he's been at the club for all of 5 minutes and Port could really use him right about now.

Yep they cost you nothing in trades but 8 players have clogged up 20% of your list.

They weren’t good enough to get games in the seniors on a regular basis so at least they didn’t hinder the development of the youngsters. But the fact they aren’t getting games means SOS got them wrong as trade targets and squandered list spots.

His return of 3 good players, 3 unknowns and 8 losses is what it is - he’s going to delist more than 50% of the recycled players he brought in, in 3 years.

His drafting is another story altogether, which you can’t really assess at this stage.

 

[10571z]

Sos tried to save face by picking up all the GWS rejects he brought to the club by giving them a chance at Carlton. Unfortunately most haven't worked out. Marchbank wasn't in the same boat as clearly was a good player and they traded hard for him.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Yep they cost you nothing in trades but 8 players have clogged up 20% of your list.

They weren’t good enough to get games in the seniors on a regular basis so at least they didn’t hinder the development of the youngsters. But the fact they aren’t getting games means SOS got them wrong as trade targets and squandered list spots.

His return of 3 good players, 3 unknowns and 8 losses is what it is - he’s going to delist more than 50% of the recycled players he brought in, in 3 years.

His drafting is another story altogether, which you can’t really assess at this stage.

You're making the assumption that they were even targets and that they were ever in contention for senior games.
Who else would've taken those spots? More kids? We wouldn't have been able to meet our TPP with just a bunch of kids on the list. They were there as back up. Seasoned bodies that could potentially come in if the kids needed to be rested or got injured. They served their purpose, now they're gone.
There's more to it than the layman's view you clearly have.