Toast The anti-Hinkleyball
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Janus
Advocatus Diaboli
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Houston played 17 games in 2017, Hartlett played 21, Pittard 17, Broadbent 15, Byrne-Jones 23.
Lienert wasn't recruited until the 2017 offseason for the 2018 season. And he might have been a good kick but he was glacially slow to make a decision which negated the point of being able to move the ball fast in the first place.
2017 was the only year since 2015 (when they started recording meters gained) that we ever had a meters gained per possession lower than the minimum distance for a mark (14.2). Every other year we've been 15m+.
This year our average meters gained is around 17.2m per possession. Guess what it was against Sydney in R1, 2017? 17.2m per possession. Against Adelaide in R3 it was 18.5m per possession. Against GWS, 17.5m per possession. Against Geelong, 17.3m. Against Richmond, 19.6m. We would only possess the ball against s**t sides who would hold numbers back in defence - remember this was before 6-6-6.
We failed in 2017 because the execution was too slow from guys like Hartlett who was more concerned about making sure that they had defensive support around them (15m gained per possession in 2017 @ 79%). Clurey - 14.5m gained per possession @ 82.7%. Jonas - 14.7m gained per possession @ 81.8%.
Pittard went at 19.9m gained per possession for the year @ 79%. Broadbent went at 18.2m gained per possession @ 77.5%.
After Byrne-Jones began to believe his AA and B&F meant that he was better than he actually is, he dropped from 15m gained per disposal in 2017 and 2019 to 13m gained per disposal in 2022.
Hence why since that time we’ve recruited Farrell, McKenzie, Burton, Bergman, Williams and Jones - guys who can kick - and then added Allir who can defend. If you want a comparison:
Farrell - 26.4m gained per possession @ 81.06%*
Houston - 22m gained per possession @ 80.61%*
Williams - 23.7m gained per possession @ 78.48%
Bergman - 23m gained per possession @ 65.35%
Burton - 24.4m gained per possession @ 75.13%
McKenzie - 22.4m gained per possession @ 86.15%
Allir - 14.6m gained per possession @ 78.92%*
Bonner - 19.1m gained per possession @ 72.99%*
Burgoyne - 19m gained per possession @ 84.62%
Jones - 18.2m gained per possession* @ 77.62%
Byrne-Jones - 16.4m gained per possession @ 68.9%*
Jonas - 13.3m gained per possession @ 78.83%*
Clurey - 10m gained per possession @ 100%*
Asterisks are players who played against Adelaide. I'd say playing Williams, Bergman (played wing against Adelaide), Burton (suspended against Adelaide) and McKenzie (injured against Adelaide) over Byrne-Jones, Clurey, Bonner and Jonas was the catalyst, which had nothing to do with, as Chad Cornes said - "anything Warren Tredrea said or ever will say." The only real unforced tactical change was putting Williams down back and playing Byrne-Jones as a sub for Sydney which was a demotion.
I'd say Jonas got more of a reprieve in terms of how many games he got because he is the captain but let's face it, he's not getting back into the side now unless Aliir or McKenize go down.
What I have found is that in the realms of psychology, the more and stronger you are trying to convince people of an opinion, in fact, you are really trying to convince yourself because you really don't believe in it.
Yeah, that's exactly what Scorcho said - they'd wait for defensive support before trying to attack. That's what Ken wanted. You're blaming the players for a gameplan decision? What?
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Hartlett et al were waiting for defensive support to get set up because that was the coaching directive. Nothing risky coming out of defence. Defensive positioning to be maintained at all costs. It was a poor, unreliable philosophy that cost us time and time again for more than half a decade.
Janus
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I can guarantee you it wasn't. And I have the receipts.
Just because that's not what happened doesn't mean it wasn't what was supposed to happen. Here's a question - if the idea was to flood everyone back inside defensive 50, exactly what would be the outlets and options to get it out of the back 50 as quickly as possible that Jonas refers to?
And more importantly - why would we not just have started the game with 8 players in defence if that was what the coaches wanted? 6-6-6 wasn't a thing back then.
The numbers getting back were literally the players on the wing folding back behind the half backs, which is why you'll see Duursma (0.4 intercept marks per game) and Boak (0.5 intercept marks per game) doing it from a wing. The wingers need to be our hardest runners for this very reason. Karl Amon in his last year with us took 0.6 intercept marks per game.
It has always been a directive for the defenders to push up and join in with the play, which is exactly how Hinkley used to play.
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So it was something that didn't happen ALL YEAR and it's the players' fault. Right.
Also... Tom Jonas literally just says something against your point... "You may have to take a more conservative approach, chip it around and wait for the right option to pop up."
Yep, that's what happened. A lot. So that was part of the gameplan, to take "the right option".
Pushing everyone into d50 then trying to "get the ball out quicker" didn't work?
I'm shocked.
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Janus
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Rozee yesterday Ollie today talking about how they are enjoying the simple game plan.
Ollie said that they are working hardery for longery.
Ollie said that they are working hardery for longery.
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OK Janus you are going on about the "who" again and giving a whole load of data for each player.
I have a question about the data and this happens mostly in defence. When a player kicks it backwards lets say 15 metres on a 35 metre kick is the data recorded -15 or 0. And here is why this data means nothing.
Lets say Player 1 is on the half back flank goes backwards and across the ground. Its a 50 metre kick but goes -10 metres backward to Player 2 who kicks a 20 metre pass at 45 degrees which is about 12 metre gain to Player 3 he is clear in the middle and kicks it 50 metres to Player 4.
Metres Gained Stats
Kick 1 -10
Kick 2 12
Kick 3 50
Average - 17.3 metres gained but the reality is that the ball is anywhere up to 120 metres away from where it started and the style of play is expansive while 3 kicks averaging 17.3 metres would suggest a chippy chip style and you have taken 3 kicks to get 50 metres as you are intimating at when you say
" We failed in 2017 because the execution was too slow from guys like Hartlett who was more concerned about making sure that they had defensive support around them (15m gained per possession in 2017 @ 79%). Clurey - 14.5m gained per possession @ 82.7%. Jonas - 14.7m gained per possession @ 81.8%."
You can't come to the conclusions that you have from the data that you have used. And you certainly can't pigeon hole a player by using these stats. The issue is you are doing what many people who mis-use statistics do. You start with the conclusion and reverse engineer statistics to prove your conclusion. THAT IS ALL.
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Jasper F*ckstain I'M CONVINCED
If you want some Statistics show me the statistics that they are running faster and longer than other players in the competition. Then you're onto something but they're not. They are just better because they have a better plan and tactical guidance.
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If the idea is to flood everyone back into the defensive 50, you're playing defence first football and lightning quickz risk taking ball movement is a pipe dream that you're not actually committed to achieving.
GremioPower
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It’s counter-attacking football. You can make risky kicks forwards precisely because the defense is set.
The plan is to attract the opposing team to your own field, opening spaces behind their lines. When you get the ball, you try to move it forward as quick as possible.
If you fail, the plan doesn’t change. You just start it over.
You rely on your ability to win contested marks i50, in the opponents missing goals from afar, and the score being tied or in your favor. It doesn’t work as well if you’re losing.
You need long kickers out of defense and fast players down forward. You also need reliable goal kickers, because you’ll have fewer chances to score.
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GremioPower
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But our plan was to actually avoid counter-attacks. We liked to lock the ball forward, to have plenty of players near the ball, to force stoppages if necessary.
We would try to control the ball, chipping it safely around, until we had the numbers forward to compete. We would then kick deep into the wings or into the pockets, hoping for a mark or a stoppage.
We wanted to grind out our wins by making the game as slow as possible for both sides and counting on our forward pressure to produce enough points to secure victory.
Wasn’t that it?
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Yep. This is the difference. And while spots in the team are so hard to get it will stay like this.
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Yes, Wingard especially. Wingard would have thrived in an environment that rewarded attacking football, 2013-2015 is plenty of proof of that. Wingard was a competitive winner before being burned out by Hinkley's turgid gamestyle.
If we're ruling a line through everyone who has been flaky under Hinkley, that's probably everyone bar Robbie Gray and arguably JHF. Plenty of players have looked average or disinterested when in a s**t culture under a poor coach and then become a matchwinner in a better system.
Sounds about right. In Ken we trust.
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Yeah so we figured out for the last ten years we just weren't trying hard enough.
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If 22 players are struggling with the game plan, change the game plan.
Not everyone has the fitness or body to be a robotic two way runner at all times of their career.
Also, football shouldn't be non stop pain for the entire duration. It's amazing how much the mind can overcome pain when you feel you are succeeding and accomplishing something.
Janus
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Our best intercept defender for that year who played more than 5 games was Hamish Hartlett with 2.1 per game, followed by Jonas (2.0), Houston (1.8), Clurey (1.7), Hombsch (1.7), Pittard (1.5), Byrne-Jones (1.4) and Broadbent (1.0). If you assume that Clurey and Hombsch replaced each other, you get 11.5 intercept marks per game.
Our best intercept defender for this year who has played more than 5 games is Aliir Aliir with 3.1, followed by Bergman (2.2), McKenzie (2.1), Williams (1.4), Jonas (1.3), Houston (1.1), Jones (0.7), Burton (0.6), Farrell (0.5) and Bonner (0.2). 11 intercept marks per game if you go with Aliir, Bergman, McKenzie, Williams, Houston, Jones and Farrell as your defenders.
We played that style because we didn't have a genuine intercept defender, so we needed players to push back to help out defence. Wait until we get Ratugolea and we have two of them the way that Melbourne has with Lever and May.
Yeah, well let's agree to disagree on the mental application of Chad Wingard. I'm still waiting for the Brownlow I was promised by certain individuals on this forum that he would win under Clarkson.
Speaking of which, the trade of Wingard and Howard that this forum cracked the shits about netted us Burton, Duursma, Bergman and Williams. All of whom would be considered best 22 for a team that is currently on an 11 game winning streak and is on top of the ladder.
Four years and counting
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Our best intercept defender for that year who played more than 5 games was Hamish Hartlett with 2.1 per game, followed by Jonas (2.0), Houston (1.8), Clurey (1.7), Hombsch (1.7), Pittard (1.5), Byrne-Jones (1.4) and Broadbent (1.0). If you assume that Clurey and Hombsch replaced each other, you get 11.5 intercept marks per game.
Our best intercept defender for this year who has played more than 5 games is Aliir Aliir with 3.1, followed by Bergman (2.2), McKenzie (2.1), Williams (1.4), Jonas (1.3), Houston (1.1), Jones (0.7), Burton (0.6), Farrell (0.5) and Bonner (0.2). 11 intercept marks per game if you go with Aliir, Bergman, McKenzie, Williams, Houston, Jones and Farrell as your defenders.
We played that style because we didn't have a genuine intercept defender, so we needed players to push back to help out defence. Wait until we get Ratugolea and we have two of them the way that Melbourne has with Lever and May.
Yeah, well let's agree to disagree on the mental application of Chad Wingard. I'm still waiting for the Brownlow I was promised by certain individuals on this forum that he would win under Clarkson.
Speaking of which, the trade of Wingard and Howard that this forum cracked the shits about netted us Burton, Duursma, Bergman and Williams. All of whom would be considered best 22 for a team that is currently on an 11 game winning streak and is on top of the ladder.
View attachment 1718831
Four years and counting
How does Howard = Bergman AND Williams? Didn’t we give up Ryder and our first rounder to the Saints as well?
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We averaged more intercept marks in 2017 than we do in 2023. We were 2nd in the league that year, only to West Coast who had that ungodly deep intercept marking lineup. This year we're sitting bang on the AFL average. Our problem has never been an inability to generate intercept marks, we've been very good at it for years. We also had our best defender in Trengove playing as a poor KPF for no good reason.
Getting everyone back an playing out slowly was a coaching directive because we were scared of turning the ball over. This year we're intercepting the ball less but we're immediately damaging with it because we're willing to take risks and use the corridor.
That coaching directive prevented us from beating the better sides and getting clowned at home by 8th in the EF was an accurate representation of how good we were because of how risk averse we were.
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