The cartoons thread

[CoggaRules]

Re: More stupidity

not usually one to quote myself, but this question needs to be answered cogga

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Murdoch#Early_life

Murdoch's British media outlets generally support eurosceptic positions, and generally show contempt for the European Union. Murdoch publications worldwide tend to adopt anti-French, pro-Israeli and pro-American views. During the buildup to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, all 175 Murdoch-owned newspapers worldwide editorialized in favour of the war.

nuff said otaku, but the question remains, why the unending bias? it cant be just for pure profit can it? If it is, then with the way things are going on this planet, fuelled by his most certain, one dimensional bias, then me tends to think the worst case scenario with this dude if you know what I mean, not much of a religious freak, but in religious parlance he might be the AC to JC if its only about profit.

 

[Bombers 2003]

Re: More stupidity

So, Lestat, do you feel these people are justified in what they did?

If u mean Irgun and the "Stern Gang"?
They were just terrorists.After all they blew up the King David Hotel and murdered civilians.

 

[Lestat]

Re: More stupidity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Murdoch#Early_life

Murdoch's British media outlets generally support eurosceptic positions, and generally show contempt for the European Union. Murdoch publications worldwide tend to adopt anti-French, pro-Israeli and pro-American views. During the buildup to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, all 175 Murdoch-owned newspapers worldwide editorialized in favour of the war.

nuff said otaku, but the question remains, why the unending bias? it cant be just for pure profit can it? If it is, then with the way things are going on this planet, fuelled by his most certain, one dimensional bias, then me tends to think the worst case scenario with this dude if you know what I mean, not much of a religious freak, but in religious parlance he might be the AC to JC if its only about profit.

Cogga,

When one agrees with the bias....they often cannot see it.

I suspect that this is the case with Otaku.

 

[Lestat]

Re: More stupidity

If u mean Irgun and the "Stern Gang"?
They were just terrorists.After all they blew up the King David Hotel and murdered civilians.

Totally agree.

Just interested in Kings response...after all he did say that killings citizens is never justifiable.

Interesting to hear how he feels about Israel...a nation that owe's its birth to terrorism.

I suspect that he will pathetically attempt to justify it.

 

[otaku]

Re: More stupidity

Otaku,

Obviously...what they did was an act of revenge. These Palestinians feel great offense at the insult of the prophet, hence they have acted out of revenge.

Was it stupid...perhaps, understandable...perhaps.

Do you believe that revenge is stupid? When the US avenged S11 by killing over 3000 innocent Afghani's...did you feel that they were justified in what they did?

Yes, revenge is stupid. "revenge" because someone drew a picture of your prophet is stupid.

Revenge because someone killed your countrymen is also stupid, unless you get the perps who did it.

Killing innocents in your quest for revenge in both cases is stupid.

Many arab nations are now encouraging a boycott against Danish products. Some countries have recalled there embassadors as a sign of protest.

Tell me Otaku...do you feel that this is stupid.

Yup, this is also stupid. Boycott the paper, if it offends you - no problems. Boycotting danish produce? Stupid.

As stupid as people in australia calling for the boycott of french produce a while back. Same in the USA.

You dont have to be muslim to be classified as stupid.

My point is...i'm just curious...is it the reactions that you find 'stupid', or the fact that some muslims are offended in the first place.

I suspect its the latter.

You would suspect wrongly then. If it was christians doing the same thing, then they would be stupid.

So, from all this, I gather you feel revenge is justified in this situation?

If so, you are no better then the maniacs with the guns.

 

[CoggaRules]

Re: More stupidity

Cogga,

When one agrees with the bias....they often cannot see it.

I suspect that this is the case with Otaku.

i am one that agrees with the bias stat. That isnt the problem, the bias aint lying, its facts, but the problem with the the bias is that there are other facts that arent given. I tend to think about why things occure rather than the thing that occured.
This is why we have this black and white mentality happening, you have those who dont see any other angle but the one prtrayed to them by a media that protrays only one, and you have the people that think that things just dont happen because a few dudes just wanted to terrorise people just to get their kicks. There is always a reason behind things, and it looks like you are not allowed to think about the reasons, because if you do, you are kind of tagged as a sympathiser by those who think one dimensional and read one dimensional stuff. This way you suppress freedom of speech without looking like you supress it

 

[otaku]

Re: More stupidity

I just asked you a couple of simple questions. Why can't you answer them.

i did - i told you to read the OP. It explains what they did.

My answers very much depend on yours.

Why should they? What has my opinion got to do with yours??

Was anyone hurt?

Not as far as I know

What I find intiguing is that you have no problem with locking people up due to what they might 'say' at a Mosque on a Friday, yet find this as 'stupid'.

Both incide hatred...don't they? so whats the diff?

Excuse me?

Want to explain this last bit?

 

[Lionel Lyon]

Re: More stupidity

[del]

Do you believe that revenge is stupid? When the US avenged S11 by killing over 3000 innocent Afghani's...did you feel that they were justified in what they did?

Many arab nations are now encouraging a boycott against Danish products. Some countries have recalled there embassadors as a sign of protest.

Tell me Otaku...do you feel that this is stupid.

My point is...i'm just curious...is it the reactions that you find 'stupid', or the fact that some muslims are offended in the first place.

I suspect its the latter.

Why do you think those newspapers published that stuff? Do you think they may be posing a question? I bet they've published stuff about Christianity too as a from of criticism. If it's been unjustified, I am sure people have responded through strong, reasoned argument. Whipping up the masses over it seems to me the most insincere kind of reaction. Much of this being "offended" and stuff seems so disingenuous to me nowadays.

 

[otaku]

Re: More stupidity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Murdoch#Early_life

Murdoch's British media outlets generally support eurosceptic positions, and generally show contempt for the European Union. Murdoch publications worldwide tend to adopt anti-French, pro-Israeli and pro-American views. During the buildup to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, all 175 Murdoch-owned newspapers worldwide editorialized in favour of the war.

Yes, murdoch has a big empire. Does he own the "media" though?

nuff said otaku, but the question remains, why the unending bias? it cant be just for pure profit can it? If it is, then with the way things are going on this planet, fuelled by his most certain, one dimensional bias, then me tends to think the worst case scenario with this dude if you know what I mean, not much of a religious freak, but in religious parlance he might be the AC to JC if its only about profit.

You are screwed in the head.

 

[Lestat]

Re: More stupidity

Yes, revenge is stupid. "revenge" because someone drew a picture of your prophet is stupid.

Revenge because someone killed your countrymen is also stupid, unless you get the perps who did it.

Killing innocents in your quest for revenge in both cases is stupid.

I agree....revenge is stupid. But it is quite simple for you and I to say so, when we both have nothing to 'avenge'.

However, how would you feel if someone came into your house and killed your family? Would you then believe that 'revenge' against that murderer would be stupid.

I suspect that you'd feel differently.

Yup, this is also stupid. Boycott the paper, if it offends you - no problems. Boycotting danish produce? Stupid.

Why is one stupid, and not the other.

As stupid as people in australia calling for the boycott of french produce a while back. Same in the USA.

Why is that stupid. Don't people have the right to call for the boycott of a nations products...if that nation has done something to offend them?

Its not like they're being violent. And they are in no way enforcing the boycott. So why's that stupid?

You would suspect wrongly then. If it was christinas doing the same thing, then they would be stupid.

So if someone said something derogatry about your family, or mother. Would you just walk away?

Would it be stupid to respond?

So, from all this, I gather you feel revenge is justified in this situation?

If so, you are no better then the maniacs with the guns.

No.....I've made myself pretty clear. I believe that revenge is stupid, as it does not really achieve much. In this case, the Palestinians are stupid in the sense that they have just publisised that which they took offense to in the first place.

But are they justified in feeling angry....hell yes. I too felt anger when I saw the cartoon.

You still haven't told me Otaku...what exactly did they do? It says in the opening post that they 'temporarily took control of the EU office'. What exactly does that mean? Did they waltz in...and then waltz out. Or was the EU offices retaken by force?

Was there any casualties?

You must agree...the OP is rather vague don't you think.

 

[CoggaRules]

Re: More stupidity

Yes, murdoch has a big empire. Does he own the "media" though?



You are screed in the head.

naaa, whats his face does, you know the guy from James Bond, Blofeld is that him?

anyway, just imagine, if I am sreed in the head, and i kind of get a laugh with the AC JC stuff, just imagine how screed those who really truly beleive in that sh-ite are huh?

 

[Lionel Lyon]

Re: More stupidity

Why is that stupid. Don't people have the right to call for the boycott of a nations products...if that nation has done something to offend them?

Its not like they're being violent. And they are in no way enforcing the boycott. So why's that stupid?

No nation did anything against "them." It was a single newspaper in Denmark back in Sept., whose right to publish freely the govt. does not want to curtail. It was not any nation. Edit: That aside, Denmark happens to be the most generous nation in the world in terms of foreign aid (Swedes, Dutch and Norwegians come in next), so if you want to blame whole nations, go right ahead.

 

[Lestat]

Re: More stupidity

[del]



Why do you think those newspapers published that stuff? Do you think they may be posing a question? I bet they've published stuff about Christianity too as a from of criticism. If it's been unjustified, I am sure people have responded through strong, reasoned argument. Whipping up the masses over it seems to me the most insincere kind of reaction. Much of this being "offended" and stuff seems so disingenuous to me nowadays.

There are other ways to pose a question LL. Why do they feel they need to demean the prophet in that way. it is quite clear that the purpose of the cartoon was to portray the prophet as a 'terrorist'. Is that the question that they were posing?

And what makes you think that people have not responded through strong reasoned argument. Otaku highlighted one example of Palestinians reacting violently..however, that is one example in the Islamic world...the only example of a violent reaction that I know of.

Why don't you google the arab media...you'll find many responses.

I doubt that they would of posted anything derogatry of Christianity...and if they did so, I'm sure that the Christians in denmark would react with similar anger. Denmark is a country with a very strong Christian population. And if they did respond with anger...I would argue that they too would be justified.

Tell me LL...where was the 'reasoned strong arguments' when the p(ss christ exhibition was touring in Melbourne a few years back.

So do you believe that the prophet was a terrorist?

Is that why you feel the response to be 'silly?

 

[otaku]

Re: More stupidity

I agree....revenge is stupid. But it is quite simple for you and I to say so, when we both have nothing to 'avenge'.

However, how would you feel if someone came into your house and killed your family? Would you then believe that 'revenge' against that murderer would be stupid.

I suspect that you'd feel differently.

revenge? or justice. big difference.

And you have no idea how I would react - so your whole argument is based on supposition.

Why is one stupid, and not the other.

Becuase one is the offending article, the other is guilt by association.

if you were to follow that argument, all muslims must be guilty because some are terrorists bent on killing westerners. And we all know how much you hate that idea, and we all know how you dont think you are a hypocrite, so I am sure you can work it out from there.

Why is that stupid. Don't people have the right to call for the boycott of a nations products...if that nation has done something to offend them?

Its not like they're being violent. And they are in no way enforcing the boycott. So why's that stupid?

What purpose does it serve? It isnt going to affect a change in policy on anything major - all it does is hurt people whose lives depend on the sale of their produce.

So if someone said something derogatry about your family, or mother. Would you just walk away?

Would it be stupid to respond?

Yes, it would be stupid to respond. How can someone saying something about my mother affect me?

No.....I've made myself pretty clear. I believe that revenge is stupid, as it does not really achieve much. In this case, the Palestinians are stupid in the sense that they have just publisised that which they took offense to in the first place.

But are they justified in feeling angry....hell yes. I too felt anger when I saw the cartoon.

Feel angry by al means - storming an office with weapons is stupid though - you agree?

You still haven't told me Otaku...what exactly did they do? It says in the opening post that they 'temporarily took control of the EU office'. What exactly does that mean? Did they waltz in...and then waltz out. Or was the EU offices retaken by force?

Was there any casualties?

You must agree...the OP is rather vague don't you think.

"In today's violence, the gunmen burst into the EU office, then withdrew several minutes later.

A group of about 15 masked men, armed with hand grenades, automatic weapons and anti-tank launchers, remained outside, keeping the offices closed.

No shots were fired, and there were no reports of injuries.

The gunmen left the building after about half an hour."

Faitrly clear to me. They were attempting to publicise their disapproval...by comforming to the sterotype portrayed by the cartoon.

Stupid huh?

 

[Lionel Lyon]

Re: More stupidity

There are other ways to pose a question LL. Why do they feel they need to demean the prophet in that way. it is quite clear that the purpose of the cartoon was to portray the prophet as a 'terrorist'. Is that the question that they were posing?

Perhaps. That is an interpretation of the Prophet that is out there, so one has to deal with it. Simply shutting down the question through mass protest only displays a hypersentivity to the question that comes off looking like fragility.

And what makes you think that people have not responded through strong reasoned argument. Otaku highlighted one example of Palestinians reacting violently..however, that is one example in the Islamic world...the only example of a violent reaction that I know of.

Why don't you google the arab media...you'll find many responses.

I've only bothered reading the forum section of Al-Jazeera where people are reviling the Danes as nothing but Crusaders, and the artist as looking like nothing but to be born as fuel for hell etc. The more reasoned arguments seemed to come from Westerners (at least their names were western)

I doubt that they would of posted anything derogatry of Christianity...and if they did so, I'm sure that the Christians in denmark would react with similar anger. Denmark is a country with a very strong Christian population. And if they did respond with anger...I would argue that they too would be justified.

From my knowledge, the Nordic nations are not so fervent in their religiosity, and so are very quick to have a go at what they see as manipulation or wrong in all religion.

Tell me LL...where was the 'reasoned strong arguments' when the p(ss christ exhibition was touring in Melbourne a few years back.

I don't know, I wasn't there, but over here, people had trouble seeing what the exact message behind the exhibition was supposed to be. Still, the show went on, did it not?

So do you believe that the prophet was a terrorist?

Is that why you feel the response to be 'silly?

It's fishing season I see. The principle here is free speech, not what I think.

 

[fabulousphil]

Re: More stupidity

Only reinforces IMO that many muslims are not mature enough in their way of thinking to be living in the west, when their religious fervour has abated to the point where they are not offended by any little thing and are more compatible with western culture then let them immigrate ....... a bit late for a few european countries though who have to put up with their rubbish.

 

[funkyfreo]

Re: More stupidity

Only reinforces IMO that many muslims are not mature enough in their way of thinking to be living in the west, when their religious fervour has abated to the point where they are not offended by any little thing and are more compatible with western culture then let them immigrate ....... a bit late for a few european countries though who have to put up with their rubbish.

was it Western muslims who stormed the office???

 

[CoggaRules]

Re: More stupidity

It's fishing season I see. The principle here is free speech, not what I think.

me dont think so LL. the principle might be free speech, but the real principle is who is allowed to speak freely and who isnt. We tend to debate for free speech in the sense of jounos, media people etc, but we also tend to jump onto everyday people expressing that same right of free speech, by expressing their free speech.
So you nail that with sedition laws, people jump up and down about the supposed suppression of free speech, and the govt forthrightly states, that the sedition laws will in no way stop journos and media people expressing their views. Pity the govt didnt say all people huh?
Free speech is a powerful weapon when you want to target an audience, that you know how that audience will react, you know?
If you didnt allow it, then you would not be able to create a thread such as this one, and i would think many others in western society, with us debating on if the act of reprisal was stupid, which we all know, 99% of those kinds of acts are, but when factoring in the climate there, in Gaza, the newly elected govt. that is deemed a terrorist organisation, the "we dont deal with these govts" from the US and Israel, the we want to stop aid to them because of that, that govt pleading for aid to be forthcoming, etc, all you need to do is get people to react the way you know they will, you put a cartoon in the paper that we would not give a stuff about, but they surely do, and you have instant terrorists huh? Strange how you can do that kind of sh-ite without seeming to do it huh?

 

[fabulousphil]

Re: More stupidity

was it Western muslims who stormed the office???

No palestinians.... but i think you know that...... my thoughts are that many muslims are not compatible with western ideas, culture, freedoms. equal rights and oppurtunitys (in theory) and many seem to oppose these things we hold dear.

 

[TuskenRaider]

Re: More stupidity

Cogga, you're not going down this track with cartoonists again are you?
Remember the Knight cartoon?

 

[CoggaRules]

Re: More stupidity

Cogga, you're not going down this track with cartoonists again are you?
Remember the Knight cartoon?

yes indeed i remember. But the thing is, Mark had the wisdom to depict OBL, neither here or there for most, especially the palestenians, but the Danes did depict someone rather different didnt they? and look what happens huh?
So what is your angle? the guys that stormed the building were not in fact incensed by the cartoon, but saw an opportunity to terrorise, and use the cartoon as an excuse? is that it?

 

[TuskenRaider]

Re: More stupidity

yes indeed i remember. But the thing is, Mark had the wisdom to depict OBL, neither here or there for most, especially the palestenians, but the Danes did depict someone rather different didnt they? and look what happens huh?
So what is your angle? the guys that stormed the building were not in fact incensed by the cartoon, but saw an opportunity to terrorise, and use the cartoon as an excuse? is that it?

Not at all Cogga, but I am reading into your posts that you believe the cartoonist or newspaper that published this did so deliberately in a conspiracy to incite the terrorists/and or ordinary muslims and in turn push more westerners against muslims (backlash against terrorists).

I don't believe that to be the case at all.

 

[CoggaRules]

Re: More stupidity

Not at all Cogga, but I am reading into your posts that you believe the cartoonist or newspaper that published this did so deliberately in a conspiracy to incite the terrorists/and or ordinary muslims and in turn push more westerners against muslims (backlash against terrorists).

I don't believe that to be the case at all.

dont think you can actually suggest there is no valdity at all, given the climate, re. elections, who was elected, and how they will not be given aid because of who was elected and what they are deemed to be, coincidentally was followed by what occured re. the cartoon and the reaction to it.

 

[skipper kelly]

Re: More stupidity

LOL,

skip, my simpleton my man,

Or maybe you can give us your first hand experience when you grew up in Gaza? --- this doesnt mean ---So only those that grew up in Gaza can comment---- it might mean----that those who grew up in gaza might be able to give us a better idea, as opposed to those that didnt, oh but i guess that we have a resident Gaza experts on Big Footy huh?

thats not very nice Cogga.

 

[CoggaRules]

Re: More stupidity

thats not very nice Cogga.

apologise skip, feel all nice today as opposed to yesteday, even feel that nice that i want to join control and fight for niceness and goodness alongside my mate, Max.