Opinion The Chicken or the Egg... drafting or development

[Ray Donovan]

There has been some pretty divided opinions of late regarding... well most things... but in particular Chris Scott, and largely his ability to develop kids.

One side of the argument is that he is unable to develop kids, one side is that the kids we have drafted haven't been the same level as previous times. Chris Scott has been questioned, people have called that Steven Wells is dropping the ball... is it one or the other, a little of each or neither?

I find it an interesting point for discussion, is the coach/coaching staff developing kids as best as they can be developed and they simply aren't as good as some of our gems of the past...
Are the gems still there but our development isn't at the same level which hinders their development?

Without turning this into a tit for tat type nonsense slinging match I am genuinely interested in the discussion.
I find it hard to be 100% on it either way, I currently am leaning more towards the thinking that something is slightly off with the development, but it is something hard to judge. If players were leaving us and becoming stars the answers would be clearer.

McCartney and hinkley and Neale balme out hurts just to start with great developers of talent coupled with our preference for mature age pickups of recent times limiting developing opportunities (I.e) Stanley, Clark, McIntosh, Henderson, Dangerfield,S.Selwood, Z.Smith, Menegola, Tuohy, Caddy, ruggles, stewart. To name a few
Not questioning out put but most come in to fill specific roles and the guys in the develoment seat never get those 50 games to get a good look (GHS) then get turned over if not good enough. Bews, Cowan, McCartney, Vardy, Murdoch.
Mitigating factors also lots of senior veterans Geelong premiership champs had to be delisted or moved on also stunts development or spots available.

The wells scenario lack of top end picks makes it difficult high finishes. Free agency first rounders going out for 2E and Henderson is a high price. But you can't build a bodybuilder off crumbs Cockatoo, Lang, Thurlow recent first rounders all look to have potential gregson looks very good.

Christensen unforseen Menzel and Vardy injuries played a big part as they were seen as big future pieces. Kersten out hurts in my eyes a bit of a mix of luck in that group.

So the trend leans towards mature players Abbott, House as well I believe recently his biggest successes are probably blicavs and Mitch Duncan drafted the year he arrived. I think champion data only rated 5 elite in hawkins, selwood, Taylor, Menzel, dangerfield elite.

Stanley, Tuohy, Henderson and one other above average motlop or Duncan so since 2011 not a good strike rate as most were on list or traded for

 

[Willo_]

Certainly the coaching/gamestyle might suit him more. Even if he explodes this year I don't know how I could attribute it to development because I always rated his talent very highly (in contrast to you IIRC).

I actually rated his talent, I thought his attitude was ordinary.... and I thought he was incapable of taking a mark

 

[Catman]

Maturity? Knowing he's career could be over if he doesn't perform, the penny might have finally dropped, especially now he's into his 8th year in the system.

 

[BlightysCats]

A one to watch regarding this discussion

Nathan Vardy

Was a frequent disappointment for us, showed us glimpses... and through no fault of his own also spent plenty of time in the rehab room.

Yes it is early days, stupidly early even... but IMO we have almost seem more from Vards in 3 JLT matches than what we saw at Geelong.

Is it just confidence in his body and being fully fit, a fresh environment that he is enjoying?

Or is it that our development wasn't capable of bringing him on as a player, and moving to a club that can do it better (obviously speculation) is already having an impact on him?



Or I partly think that it also could have to do with being seperated from Bille Smedts, Mitch Duncan and Josh Caddy...


Granted it could well all fall over when the real stuff starts and we see what we have seen previously, but I feel it is a really interesting one to watch as the year unfolds

C'mon Willo we have a head coach with widely known communication problems, how the hell are you meant to teach kids if you can't communicate effectively with them? Also how are those kids meant to have any respect for a coach that's totally uncommunicative?

 

[David the Cat]

Pretty hard to develop a kid who spent 80% of his time in rehab. He got some exposure but not a lot and i doubt ever completed a full preseason with us.

I was/am a Vardy fan...he's obviously talented. Played well tonight I thought....but I won't swallow that he's made an exponential improvement in his general play because of 3 months at WCE, so therefore Geelong's handling of him was substandard. He was a raw kid when he arrived..he's not that now.

Geelong however won't benefit from a fit and more mature Vardy.

25 games in 5 years wasn't it? Well..he's had a full preseason this year, and for his sake, I hope that holds him in good stead. But his history with us really left the club with little choice but to let him go.

 

[BlightysCats]

Pretty hard to develop a kid who spent 80% of his time in rehab. He got some exposure but not a lot and i doubt ever completed a full preseason with us.

I was/am a Vardy fan...he's obviously talented. Played well tonight I thought....but I won't swallow that he's made an exponential improvement in his general play because of 3 months at WCE, so therefore Geelong's handling of him was substandard. He was a raw kid when he arrived..he's not that now.

Geelong however won't benefit from a fit and more mature Vardy.

25 games in 5 years wasn't it? Well..he's had a full preseason this year, and for his sake, I hope that holds him in good stead. But his history with us really left the club with little choice but to let him go.

Vardy himself has said he's learnt a lot more at West Coast than he did at Geelong.

 

[Larry Donohue]

Vardy himself has said he's learnt a lot more at West Coast than he did at Geelong.

Unlikely to say the opposite I would have thought. Wants into the 22. Be interesting to see what they do with him with lycett back. When nic nat back hell be lucky to keep his place. Hope he succeeds though

 

[Willo_]

Maturity? Knowing he's career could be over if he doesn't perform, the penny might have finally dropped, especially now he's into his 8th year in the system.

It is more than likely this combined with getting a good run of actually training/playing (completing a preseason)

 

[Partridge]

If we are willing to accept development is an issue at this club more broadly does that really excuse Vardy for his VFL form last season where he could barely get a sniff of the leather (reflected in his votes per game ranking in the VFL B&F)?

Was about to say the same thing. Even if you accept player development is not all it should be (and I'm certainly not going to shy away from criticising them where justified), that doesn't explain him being unable to do anything meaningful at VFL level. Plenty of other guys with senior ability - Brown and Smedts in the past, Horlin-Smith in the present - put their head down and starred at that level.

Ultimately, I think he did have enough chances particularly in his last 18 months to stake more of a claim for himself. Unfortunately he didn't.

 

[Landgraft]

One thing I find interesting on the Vardy ruck coach issue is that we were still able to teach Blicavs to ruck, despite him coming in an absolute blank slate and our personnel deficiencies.

I suspect that Vardy was just in a rut and while working with Dean Cox was great, the change of scenery was the biggest part of it. Dunno if his mental softness will hold up to a season flying constantly between WA and VIC though.

 

[hbk_aus]

Vardy himself has said he's learnt a lot more at West Coast than he did at Geelong.

Quotes?

 

[hbk_aus]

Vardy was an enigma. Lost a lot of development time due to serious injuries but you could see there was something there. Unfortunately he could never show it on any type of regular basis and as others have said, his VFL form last year was deplorable. In any case, he decided to move to fresh pastures and good luck to him.

I do find it hard to understand why we cant have a full time ruck coach. I know we dont have the resources of West Coast but IMO it is a fairly important role.

 

[Partridge]

Vardy was an enigma. Lost a lot of development time due to serious injuries but you could see there was something there. Unfortunately he could never show it on any type of regular basis and as others have said, his VFL form last year was deplorable. In any case, he decided to move to fresh pastures and good luck to him.

I do find it hard to understand why we cant have a full time ruck coach. I know we dont have the resources of West Coast but IMO it is a fairly important role.

I'd agree with that. Surely things that come under the football department - particularly players and coaches - are more important than anything else.

 

[Partridge]

another point as to why people that claim Wells is a failure are (IMO) stretching.... it is pretty hard to draft the top end talent when you don't have top end picks

The trading of 1st round picks is another topic all together mind you

What constitutes 'top end' though? Top 10? Fair enough, we never had many of those to begin with. But we've had plenty of other picks. From 1999-2006 he landed the following players just with picks in the 20s and above:

Chapman (31)
Ling (38)
Enright (47)
Hunt (44)
Johnson (24)
Lonergan (23)
Egan (62)
West (31)
Stokes (61)

That's nine players in 8 seasons (7 actually, Stokes and West were in 2005), and eight of them were premiership players (and you'd think Egan would have been). The point is, we still get picks in that range right now. And before anyone says "well we haven't had as many", that's because the club chose to trade those picks away. And not just first round either, as we traded picks out for McIntosh and Caddy in 2012, two picks for Smith in 2015, and so on.

I don't see that being much of an excuse.

 

[hbk_aus]

What constitutes 'top end' though? Top 10? Fair enough, we never had many of those to begin with. But we've had plenty of other picks. From 1999-2006 he landed the following players just with picks in the 20s and above:

Chapman (31)
Ling (38)
Enright (47)
Hunt (44)
Johnson (24)
Lonergan (23)
Egan (62)
West (31)
Stokes (61)

That's nine players in 8 seasons (7 actually, Stokes and West were in 2005), and eight of them were premiership players (and you'd think Egan would have been). The point is, we still get picks in that range right now. And before anyone says "well we haven't had as many", that's because the club chose to trade those picks away. And not just first round either, as we traded picks out for McIntosh and Caddy in 2012, two picks for Smith in 2015, and so on.

I don't see that being much of an excuse.

IMO opinion as more and more $ has been pumped into scouting/recruiting, it has become harder and harder to find the diamond in the rough before other clubs do. Especially when it comes out recently that we are well down on recruiting staff compared to other clubs.

Having said that, I think we developed those players a hell of a lot better than we seem to be doing now. Enright for example was a horrible kick when he arrived and turned into a brilliant field kick.

 

[Partridge]

IMO opinion as more and more $ has been pumped into scouting/recruiting, it has become harder and harder to find the diamond in the rough before other clubs do. Especially when it comes out recently that we are well down on recruiting staff compared to other clubs.

Having said that, I think we developed those players a hell of a lot better than we seem to be doing now. Enright for example was a horrible kick when he arrived and turned into a brilliant field kick.

I get what you're saying, but I wouldn't call picks in the 20s or even 40s as necessarily diamonds in the rough. They're second or at worst third round picks. It's not unreasonable to expect to develop players taken from that range.

Interesting point you raise about recruiting staff. My question would be just as it is with not having a ruck coach - why?

 

[cynical]

From memory Vardy showed decent form in the preseason last year and should have been picked, but instead they went with Kersten.

Probably didnt care that much after that and other clubs would have been sniffing around so he knew he'd get picked up by another club.

 

[hbk_aus]

I get what you're saying, but I wouldn't call picks in the 20s or even 40s as necessarily diamonds in the rough. They're second or at worst third round picks. It's not unreasonable to expect to develop players taken from that range.

Interesting point you raise about recruiting staff. My question would be just as it is with not having a ruck coach - why?

I guess it goes along with why Willo made this thread and is something I dont think we will ever know. Were those 99-03 era drafts just terrific picks or was our development so brilliant that we turned them into stars? And has our drafting really dropped off lately or are we no longer able to develop very well from within? Extremely hard to tell.

 

[hbk_aus]

From memory Vardy showed decent form in the preseason last year and should have been picked, but instead they went with Kersten.

Probably didnt care that much after that and other clubs would have been sniffing around so he knew he'd get picked up by another club.

Sh*t attitude then and would rather not have him.

 

[Catman]

You have to wonder whether he'd be getting the game time he has, if both Naitanui and Lycett weren't injured.

 

[Willo_]

What constitutes 'top end' though? Top 10? Fair enough, we never had many of those to begin with. But we've had plenty of other picks. From 1999-2006 he landed the following players just with picks in the 20s and above:

Chapman (31)
Ling (38)
Enright (47)
Hunt (44)
Johnson (24)
Lonergan (23)
Egan (62)
West (31)
Stokes (61)

That's nine players in 8 seasons (7 actually, Stokes and West were in 2005), and eight of them were premiership players (and you'd think Egan would have been). The point is, we still get picks in that range right now. And before anyone says "well we haven't had as many", that's because the club chose to trade those picks away. And not just first round either, as we traded picks out for McIntosh and Caddy in 2012, two picks for Smith in 2015, and so on.

I don't see that being much of an excuse.

I think i really mean top 10-12 when I say top end picks.

Fully aware we hardly had them, probably helps make a point that maybe the development is lacking, but I don't think there is a rock solid answer either way which is why it is an interesting topic to discuss.

 

[Willo_]

You have to wonder whether he'd be getting the game time he has, if both Naitanui and Lycett weren't injured.

He wouldn't be..
But he likely wouldn't even have been traded there if NicNat hadn't done his knee either.

 

[BlightysCats]

Quotes?

Vardy sought a fresh start when he was traded to West Coast last October and is already reaping the benefits of training regularly under Eagles champion Dean Cox.

“It’s very different to Geelong,” Vardy said.
“Having a full-time ruck coach the calibre of Coxy was very exciting for me when I came to the club.

“I’m loving it. The ideas and the things that he’s had to say have been amazing.

“I’m just trying to develop my ruck craft as much as I can.
https://thewest.com.au/sport/afl/na...ng-ahead-of-west-coast-audition-ng-b88392067z

 

[hbk_aus]

Vardy sought a fresh start when he was traded to West Coast last October and is already reaping the benefits of training regularly under Eagles champion Dean Cox.

“It’s very different to Geelong,” Vardy said.
“Having a full-time ruck coach the calibre of Coxy was very exciting for me when I came to the club.

“I’m loving it. The ideas and the things that he’s had to say have been amazing.

“I’m just trying to develop my ruck craft as much as I can.
https://thewest.com.au/sport/afl/na...ng-ahead-of-west-coast-audition-ng-b88392067z

That seems to be slightly different to you stating that "Vardy himself has said he's learnt a lot more at West Coast than he did at Geelong" doesnt it?

 

[BlightysCats]

That seems to be slightly different to you stating that "Vardy himself has said he's learnt a lot more at West Coast than he did at Geelong" doesnt it?

It is but I was going off memory certainly didn't mean to seem misleading, regardless the fact is he says 'it's very different to Geelong...having a full time ruck coach,' then coincidently comes out playing the best footy of his career in the first 3 JLT matches - you join the obvious dots.