Roast The Cull needs to start

[Hollow Knight]

I smell troll.

 

[Chezzalenko Reborn]

Piemanzzz reeks of troll...... Be gone Collingwood fool!

 

[The Flying Belgian]

Piemanzzz reeks of troll...... Be gone Collingwood fool!

The cull most definitely needs to start. Keyboard cat where are you?

 

[Last of the Roys]

Nope, actually reinforced. Check the forward line of Collingwood. Cloke, Brown, Dawes aren't exactly short people.

All of those guys have reasonable enough pace though. If Fev and Brown aren't fully fit, then we will look slow up forward (just like Kosi looked today).

I don't think people should so easily dismiss the Collingwood comparison. They are clearly the best team in the League. They are young, skillful, ferocious, and fast as hell.

Speed and skills are what we need. Both St.Kilda and Geelong both looked too slow. Speed is the future; as well as the ability to get up and back all day long. It has been coming for a while, but it is finally here.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

All of those guys have reasonable enough pace though. If Fev and Brown aren't fully fit, then we will look slow up forward (just like Kosi looked today).

I think it would stand to reason that if Brown, Dawes or Cloke weren't fully fit they'd look pretty slow also.

 

[pod17]

Speed and skills are what we need. Both St.Kilda and Geelong both looked too slow. Speed is the future; as well as the ability to get up and back all day long. It has been coming for a while, but it is finally here.[/quote]

100% agree with this. This was apparent last year when we went on our mature age recruiting binge yet we did not address this problem. Have posted previously about our need to explore recruiting more pacy types.

KPP are extremely valuable and are required quite obviously. But a number of successful teams recently have decided to recruit pacy, midfield types before KPP.

West Coast made their mark with an elite midfield. Hansen and Lynch, whilst decent, are by no means world beaters. Geelong again- an elite midfield with serviceable KPP in Mooney and Hawkins.

Hawks are the exception in recent times rather than the rule I would suggest. The change in rules (eg no delay in kicking in after a behind, multiple rotations etc.) mean that the slower types will be exposed more than any other time in the history of our game. One on one football still exists but many teams adopt zones nowadays and this IMO restricts the influence that the bigger players can have on a game. On the other hand these kind of structures really highlight the need for pace- Stephen Hill is a prime example with his run and carry breaking the lines.

Time for the Lions to select some line breakers in this draft.

 

[Rally]

The following players must go:

Collier - I've tried to like him, but he is sluggish and has the foot skills of a 7-year old.
Selwood - Again, I tried to like him, but he just simply wasn't good enough. Already gone.
Stiller - I can't believe he's lasted as long as he has. Whenever he gets the ball I get nervous. He is way too far off the mark.

But I have confidence in next year. Everyone seems to assume that the Brisbane Lions have traded away our future, there's serious morale issues at the club and we're in for a rough few years. Sure, I hardly agree with a lot of Vossy's decisions, but to slander his reputation like people have been doing after only his second season is incredibly harsh. He took a team that had been milling around in the bottom 8 for 4 years and took them to a semi-final. People forget that too quickly.

As for the Trade-a-polooza that Vossy went on last year, although few will agree with me, I think the jury is still out. Maguire and Staker have both been a God-send. There were times last year where we literally did not have a back line, and without them it would have been embarrassing. Staker must not play up forward, but in our defence he is pivotal.

Clarke hasn't been given an opportunity to prove anyone wrong yet, I think Raines might have been injured for a chunk of the season (but his form wasn't great) and Buchanan didn't show enough either. Those 3 I'll give one more chance.

And then there's Fev. I think I'm one of Fev's last supporters. 2010 was just the year from hell for Fev, but I still have plenty of time for him. We showed it in the first 4 rounds; if Brown and Fevola are FIT, and in the same forward line, they will do damage. But it's a shame we only had that for 4 rounds. After that, neither of them were right. I didn't see Fev jump in a marking contest all year; the same jump that has been causing me headaches whenever we played Carlton all these years. Once he gets a good pre-season under his belt, I think that's when everyone is allowed to judge.

Next year, barring injuries, I think we will have a defence and a forward line both in the top 3 in the competition. But that's not where you win premierships. Voss needs to ignore the premiership run for next year, and invest in some midfield pace for the future. I honestly think we will give the finals a real shake next year. You often see teams that play well one season, fall away the next and come back even stronger. I think it's our time for that. Remember 1998 and 1999? Anyway, that's my rant.

 

[irel]

All of those guys have reasonable enough pace though. If Fev and Brown aren't fully fit, then we will look slow up forward (just like Kosi looked today).

I don't think people should so easily dismiss the Collingwood comparison. They are clearly the best team in the League. They are young, skillful, ferocious, and fast as hell.

Speed and skills are what we need. Both St.Kilda and Geelong both looked too slow. Speed is the future; as well as the ability to get up and back all day long. It has been coming for a while, but it is finally here.

This grand final was not won on speed. Statistics indicate that grunt, footskils and good old fashioned footy smarts won the Magpies a premierships.

■ Collingwood won the contested possession count 134 -122. Dale Thomas and Luke Ball both won a team-high 10 contested possessions, while St Kilda's Brendon Goddard won a game-high 14 contested possessions.

■ The Magpies played direct football, finishing with 250 kicks and 129 handballs for the match - a kick-to-handball ratio of 1.94:1 - its second highest in any game this season.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/the-key-statistics-20101002-16238.html

The Magpies midfield is not fast by any means, however throughout the year it proved to be the most efficient and footy savvy than all the other midfields. The bulldogs midfield, with all their leg speed was found short once again come September.
What is clearly needed is smart,footy savvy and skilled midfielders. If they have leg speed as well that will be a bonus.

One other aspect that was so obvious in Collingwood's team is that every player had a role to play and not a single player took it upon themselves to be an individual. They played their role and followed instruction to the letter. Their pressing game and clearances at stoppages was the best that has ever been seen. The foot skills and good old fashioned physical aspect of the contest has been returned to it's rightful place. The era of the handball(Geelong) thankfully may now be consigned to history.

St Kilda did not have forwards. The support to Reiwoldt was absolutely abysmal. Milne and Kosi were found out once again. Just average hyped up footballers.
St Kilda's back line straggled to contain the three monsters in Cloke, Brown and Dawes. The smaller players around them fed beautifully off them, because so much concentration was spent to contain the big bodies of the Collingwood's forwards.

This should be a lesson to us. Our forward line of Brown, Fev and Clark is far superior to Collingwood's. It is in the midfield and small forwards where we need to improve. If we can get this right over summer we are closer than people give us credit.

 

[Mr Ripper]

Piemanzzz reeks of troll...... Be gone Collingwood fool!

He could just be a baker... er... a baker lacking in sleep.

 

[chopperduck]

I actually dont' think the pies are that fast a team. They play with heavy rotations which keeps a lot of their players at top speed for longer, but it's just more of a case that they don't have a lot of slow players. Everyone in the team has a little bit of toe, not enough to consider then 'quick' but they aren't plodders either. It gives a evenness across the field for them, and i think this helps when they start laying tackles.

Too me, it's great coaching. The gameplan over the past few years has been to start handballing, the best way to stop that working is to just tackle the crap out of everyone so they can't handball effectively. They also back each other up, and don't get sucked into the contest. If they have someone covered, they will hang back and wait for that guy to get tackled, or start lining up the next guy that will get the ball. In doing so they shut down teams time and space. When they get the turn overs, they push hard to the wings into space, and they are drilled to look and kick there. They don't take 'risks' going into the corridor, they just lead straight and hard and honour the leads given to them. Likewise, this means that their skills by foot are pretty good across the ground. Again, everyone isn't outstanding, but everyone can kick to someone on a lead into space 30-40m ahead (which really to play at AFL level you should be able to do anyway).

The only problem i can see coming their way is with interchange caps, they won't be able to keep their pressure up for the whole game. They won't be able to rest players when they need. However, they have good coaches, and im sure they will adjust the game plan when/if needed.

It's a simple and effective way to play footy, it also means anyone can come into the team and do the job.

 

[Last of the Roys]

I can't believe people could have watched the Grand Final and not come away thinking how slow St.Kilda looked (which doesn't mean they don't have their strengths - but vs. Collingwood this was always on of their clear weaknesses).

As chopperduck said, it is not just speed in a normal sense though (although the Magpies are definitely on average faster than a lot of teams in the AFL). It is the ability to continually get more numbers to the contest and keep their average pace high relative to their opposition over their entire playing group over the course of an entire game.

It has to be to do with their training, their rotations, their age, and the type of players they have selected.

Basically since the end of 2004 we haven't been able to keep up with the increased pace of the game (and again I'm talking about how teams can often maintain a high average pace compared to what we can do). That is not to say we haven't shown any strengths or can't get on a roll during games. But to me it seems like one of our glaring deficiency - one that should have been highlighted perfectly by the semi-final loss to the Bulldogs in 2009 (unfortunately for us the wrong lessons were learned).

 

[chopperduck]

Saints just couldn't move the ball. They did a good job to keep the pies at bay, and not to get blown away quicker. They tackled pretty good and were able to win the ball back, but they just couldn't move it. They had one forward leading and he was ineffective. They didn't have any run from the back and nothing to kick forward too. They need another marking forward and/or tall forward. Also need some pace. They are good at grinding teams down, but when they can't score they struggle really bad.

 

[luthor]

Surely this debate has got to be tempered by the outcome of the AFL's review into possible/probable capping of the number of interchange rotations.

I mean, if any sort of cap at all is introduced, it will surely favor the "slower" and more durable players to the detriment of the "speed" merchants who are being rotated on and off the field almost faster than they can actually run.

Personally, I believe a cap on interchanges would make the big "power" forwards more relevant again, which would suit us just fine

 

[chopperduck]

I did mention that exact thing in my post above. Collingwood were the first team to really embrace a lot of interchanges. Having to quickly adapt to being limited might hurt them a little, and with more tired players out on the field it's hard to keep up that intense full field pressure they have going. They also lack that really good big target to kick to.

 

[POBT]

The Magpies midfield is not fast by any means, however throughout the year it proved to be the most efficient and footy savvy than all the other midfields. The bulldogs midfield, with all their leg speed was found short once again come September.
What is clearly needed is smart,footy savvy and skilled midfielders. If they have leg speed as well that will be a bonus.

One other aspect that was so obvious in Collingwood's team is that every player had a role to play and not a single player took it upon themselves to be an individual. They played their role and followed instruction to the letter. Their pressing game and clearances at stoppages was the best that has ever been seen. The foot skills and good old fashioned physical aspect of the contest has been returned to it's rightful place. The era of the handball(Geelong) thankfully may now be consigned to history.

Exactly irel. The so called pacey Collingwood line up is merely a collection of players who run hard, work for each other, find the footy and know what to do with it. They look quick, as a result.

The key learning for me is that Collingwood make good decisions. And yet, they have guys like Goldsack, Toovey, Brown etc who aren't exactly good decision makers as individual footballers. But they know the team rules (which I assume, from an offensive sense, are (1) move the ball on quickly when you have it; and (2) run hard to make an option for a teammate) and play to them.

I heard some guff about Collingwood only recruiting players with good foot skills. Rubbish. Collingwood's foot skills are no better than anyone else's in the top 4/6. Certainly, I reckon that St Kilda had more "elite" kicks in their line-up. What Collingwood has is a system which minimises the margin for error by ensuring that kicks go to space rather than to a static contest and that they aren't afraid to take alternative routes forward (ie wide), provided that the ball movement is quick.

Couple that system with the fact that they, as a group, make good decisions and the end result is fewer errors by foot. If Collingwood were trying to laser pass their way through their own defensive set up, they'd get belted. As it is, the way to beat Collingwood is to play Collingwood footy, I reckon.

That's not to denigrate foot skills. But they don't need to be exemplary - just solid and mistake free. Give me a good decision maker over someone with great skills but questionable judgement.

But Collingwood's system comes crashing down if they are no good at the contest. And this is where they thrive. They have a deep midfield rotation that wins the ball in close and can clear congestion. It is actually a pleasure to watch the way that Ball, Pendlebury and Swan go about their work in close.

 

[western royboy]

The key learning for me is that Collingwood make good decisions. And yet, they have guys like Goldsack, Toovey, Brown etc who aren't exactly good decision makers as individual footballers. But they know the team rules (which I assume, from an offensive sense, are (1) move the ball on quickly when you have it; and (2) run hard to make an option for a teammate) and play to them.

I heard some guff about Collingwood only recruiting players with good foot skills. Rubbish. Collingwood's foot skills are no better than anyone else's in the top 4/6. Certainly, I reckon that St Kilda had more "elite" kicks in their line-up. What Collingwood has is a system which minimises the margin for error by ensuring that kicks go to space rather than to a static contest and that they aren't afraid to take alternative routes forward (ie wide), provided that the ball movement is quick.

Couple that system with the fact that they, as a group, make good decisions and the end result is fewer errors by foot. If Collingwood were trying to laser pass their way through their own defensive set up, they'd get belted. As it is, the way to beat Collingwood is to play Collingwood footy, I reckon.

That's not to denigrate foot skills. But they don't need to be exemplary - just solid and mistake free. Give me a good decision maker over someone with great skills but questionable judgement.

I think being a good decsion maker and having good disposal skils by foot go hand in hand. The Pies only had one ball butcher on their list - Barham and he is no longer there.

I know for a fact Derek Hine places a lot of emphasis on kicking ability, specifically the ability to hit targets.

 

[kimp]

Lots of good points and (unfortunately) Collingwood are a good team. However I think not enough is being made of St Kilda. They were a big man down on Saturday which was a major blow and they had played out of their skin and were clearly not as 'fresh' as the week before. St Kilda blew their chance in the first GF.

I think the take home for all teams is to learn how Collingwood train. Given the average age and experience of the team that is what's impressive. It's similar to how Sydney were able to execute a game plan.

I'd also add that it shows what having a great organisation structure can do.

The new interchange rules will hit them hard I think because they have been so well drilled in their current style of game.

 

[PaddlePopLion]

I think the take home for all teams is to learn how Collingwood train. Given the average age and experience of the team that is what's impressive. It's similar to how Sydney were able to execute a game plan.

I'd also add that it shows what having a great organisation structure can do.

=

I totally agree with these statements and I think this is where the Lions need to focus to succeed in the future. Game plan + execution with a stable and supportive club structure. Easy to say, hard to do.

 

[Slattery_20]

The key learning for me is that Collingwood make good decisions. And yet, they have guys like Goldsack, Toovey, Brown etc who aren't exactly good decision makers as individual footballers. But they know the team rules (which I assume, from an offensive sense, are (1) move the ball on quickly when you have it; and (2) run hard to make an option for a teammate) and play to them.

They normally (off half-back/wing) only look for 2 options, quick glance to spot an open man in the middle, then along the wing.
Very, very well drilled, hard working side.

 

[Gibbo_88]

Did a quick google search to see when the lions announced their delistings last year and it looks like it was about the 15th of October so hopefully by the end of next week we know how many are gone/how many draft picks we will use.

 

[Slattery_20]

There's 2 or 3 list lodgement dates.
The dates this year have changed, with the GF II & longer trade week.

One before the trade week (ie the definites), one after trade week (ie guys who might have a little value in trade), one after that (after ND?)

 

[thoselionslads]

Johnstone is gone.

 

[dlanod]

Johnstone is gone.

Delisted or traded?

 

[braddsey]

Johnstone is gone.

I heard the same on SEN this morning. He's apparently being floated about as trade if anyone is interested, otherwise he'll be de-listed. This is news I've been waiting to hear since the end of his first season with the lions!

 

[thoselionslads]

Delisted or traded?

Don't think anyone will bite and trade for him.

I thought he might be a chance for a one year contract on reduced money.

Not to be.