Religion The God Question - part 2

[Total Power]

Whereabouts exactly?

I have never advocated for a transcendent God....Anyone who knows the history of the transition from Paganism to Christianity couldn't.

What I do defend are the faithful & their beliefs against the atheist onslaught....Come on man, you already know this.

You often talk about praying, confessing your sins to god, which might signal you believe in a personal god? i have pointed it out many times before, unless you are taking the piss obviously

 

[Procrastinator35]

You often talk about praying, confessing your sins to god, which might signal you believe in a personal god? i have pointed it out many times before, unless you are taking the piss obviously

What<Pagans never prayed?

Not read your Homer or Hesiod then?

All them Shrines & Temples just for show & tell, I suppose.

 

[Total Power]

What<Pagans never prayed?

Not read your Homer or Hesiod then?

All them Shrines & Temples just for show & tell, I suppose.

Pantheism and paganism are not the same, they are soul sisters but not the same. Paganism offers more ceremonial rituals than pantheism, hence the concept of praying. Pagans are pantheists yes, but they are still different, just like christians are followers of the christ just like catholics but they are not the same. But pantheists are not always pagans.

Pray to whom exactly? if you are a part of the universe and god, pray to yourself? the key is to meditate and look for solutions within yourself, not externally.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Pantheism and paganism are not the same, they are soul sisters but not the same. Paganism offers more ceremonial rituals than paganism, hence the concept of praying

Pray to whom exactly? if you are a part of the universe and god, pray to yourself? the key is to meditate and look for solutions within yourself, not externally.

Oh, Really?....Pan is a Greek mythological lesser-God....He is a fertility God of nature.

Both Paganism & Pantheism subscribe to the notion of an animated universe...That God/s are everywhere & in everything....One goes to a Pagan Temple to pray silently (Acropolis< Temple of Dianna) or to a religious festival/gathering (The Dionysia) to celebrate overtly....Conversely, you can just stay at home & pray.

The point being: There is no internal/external schism....On top of which, Zeus is the over-arching & presiding God who establishes order.

Zeus morphed into the Christian God, with the rest of the Pantheon divvied up into angels & Demons (Greek Daemon (God)....With Pan becoming the devil himself (The animal side of our nature.)

Greek Gods have both good & bad, Human & animal, rational & irrational sides to them....Just like we do....In fact, this very point informs the basis of Nietzsche's Apollonian/Dionysian critique of Western Christian modernity/morality.

 

[Total Power]

Oh, Really?....Pan is a Greek mythological lesser-God....He is a fertility God of nature.

Both Paganism & Pantheism subscribe to the notion of an animated universe...That God/s are everywhere & in everything....One goes to a Pagan Temple to pray silently (Acropolis< Temple of Dianna) or to a religious festival/gathering (The Dionysia) to celebrate overtly....Conversely, you can just stay at home & pray.

The point being: There is no internal/external schism....On top of which, Zeus is the over-arching & presiding God who establishes order.

Zeus morphed into the Christian God, with the rest of the Pantheon divvied up into angels & Demons (Greek Daemon (God)....With Pan becoming the devil himself (The animal side of our nature.)

Greek Gods have both good & bad, Human & animal, rational & irrational sides to them....Just like we do....In fact, this very point informs the basis of Nietzsche's Apollonian/Dionysian critique of Western Christian modernity/morality.

I agree with the bolded part. Pan was indeed a lesser- god, but pan has a meaning too , it means "everything".. Paganism is a board term for people who don't share abrahamic faiths, polytheistic, folk practioners (traditional), or modern to new age, earth-centered, wiccan faiths.

Pantheism, likewise, is a broad term. I see it as believing that the Divine (God, whoever) IS everything and everyone. No one created us. We are, in a vary careful sense, God. they are describing different things. One can be both, and many are. But Paganism is by far the broader label, since just about any minority religion is apt to get thrown under it at somepoint, regardless of their stance on god. Indeed, people who actually identify as Pagans tend to be skeptical of the value others place on "right belief".

for example i am Pagan and i worship 12 Gods and acknowledge several gods, ocean Gods, titans, and primordial Deities.

I could still be Pagan but if I was pantheistic I would probably think that yaia (Gaia) is the universe.

I believe divine is immanent and you breath it, walk in it, see it - infused in everything, you and the world around you, or even that very thing itself.

 

[evo]

.Christianity is founded upon a Platonic Metaphysic, incorporating the irrational side of human nature, the noumenal world & it's archetypes.

.

Yeah, funny that. Kinda leads one to believe it was just some scribblings by men, rather than a God.

 

[chelseacarlton]

I.E God & Universe both eternal & inextricably entwined.

Though Pantheism on Earth pertains more to the cosmic life-force of energy itself....Which pervades our entire planet, yet nowhere else. That we can ascertain thus far, anyhow.

No its not you neonphyte!

 

[Procrastinator35]

I agree with the bolded part. Pan was indeed a lesser- god, but pan has a meaning too , it means "everything".. Paganism is a board term for people who don't share abrahamic faiths, polytheistic, folk practioners (traditional), or modern to new age, earth-centered, wiccan faiths.

Pantheism, likewise, is a broad term. I see it as believing that the Divine (God, whoever) IS everything and everyone. No one created us. We are, in a vary careful sense, God. they are describing different things. One can be both, and many are. But Paganism is by far the broader label, since just about any minority religion is apt to get thrown under it at somepoint, regardless of their stance on god. Indeed, people who actually identify as Pagans tend to be skeptical of the value others place on "right belief".

for example i am Pagan and i worship 12 Gods and acknowledge several gods, ocean Gods, titans, and primordial Deities.

I could still be Pagan but if I was pantheistic I would probably think that yaia (Gaia) is the universe.

I believe divine is immanent and you breath it, walk in it, see it - infused in everything, you and the world around you, or even that very thing itself.

Anything which deviates from the mono-theistic canon, usually is defined as Pagan....It's also important to recognize what the ancient Greeks are up to with their Gods....These are real, living & breathing psychic entities, that surround us in our everyday lives....And often come to visit & commune with us in our dreams.

The Greek Pantheon of Gods, is an attempt at a crystallization of the predominant characteristics which adhere in & comprise the human psyche (Archetypes)....It is a constellation of both our interior & exterior worlds....In the ancient Greek world, there is no split between mind/body, consciousness & Soul....Which is why I prefer the term psyche.

It is from this Universal constellation that both Freud & Jung discovered the route back into the Western repressed, unconscious body via the work of Nietzsche....That Western Christianity had in fact, cut us off from our bodies, with the devil at our throats.

Metaphorical interpretation: Fear of decent into the underworld....Christian translation: Hell.

 

[Procrastinator35]

No its not you neonphyte!

If I've told you once, I've told you a 1,000 times:.... Stop picking your nose.

 

[Total Power]

Anything which deviates from the mono-theistic canon, usually is defined as Pagan....It's also important to recognize what the ancient Greeks are up to with their Gods....These are real, living & breathing psychic entities, that surround us in our everyday lives....And often come to visit & commune with us in our dreams.

The Greek Pantheon of Gods, is an attempt at a crystallization of the predominant characteristics which adhere in & comprise the human psyche (Archetypes)....It is a constellation of both our interior & exterior worlds....In the ancient Greek world, there is no split between mind/body, consciousness & Soul....Which is why I prefer the term psyche.

It is from this Universal constellation that both Freud & Jung discovered the route back into the Western repressed, unconscious body via the work of Nietzsche....That Western Christianity had in fact, cut us off from our bodies, with the devil at our throats.

Metaphorical interpretation: Fear of decent into the underworld....Christian translation: Hell.

The first paragraph says it all, all pagans are pantheists but all pantheists are not necessarily pagans. For example, Buddhism is not pantheistic in the sense that it identifies the universe with God. On the other hand, the Buddhist God is absolute and transcendent; this world, being merely its manifestation, is necessarily fragmental and imperfect. So in that sense Buddhism can be considered as pantheistic.

Hinduism can be both pantheistic and panentheistic. There is Dvaita (duality) and Advaita (non-duality)

In Duality, you think of God as different from you. devotee may think himself as servant or a part of infinity, but not god himself.

In non-duality, seeker thinks of himself as Brahman / Atman / SELF. This SELF is different from Ego / Mind / Intellect / Body.

Advaitin, do not worship or tend not to worship any god with form.

There is Brahman and itss Maya. The formless aspect is Brahman, which does nothing. It's power Maya creates, preserves and destroys and the cycle continues. Advaitin meditate on this formless Brahman and Dvaita worship this shakti which manifests as Gods and Goddesses. God is eternally free and not influenced by it's power Maya, but in turn controls Maya (all pervasive energy). So it's avatars like Rama, Krishna are also above Maya and can take one above maya. We are incarnated souls are bound by Maya and need the help of God to rise above it.

At the end of the day it all comes down to how you look at things.

Have a read of the major differences between pantheism and paganism

http://www.pantheism.net/paul/pagan.htm

 

[Procrastinator35]

Yeah, funny that. Kinda leads one to believe it was just some scribblings by men, rather than a God.

Platonic Metaphysics borrows heavily from the ancient Greek Pantheon....It did not arise in a vacuum.

 

[chelseacarlton]

If I've told you once, I've told you a 1,000 times:.... Stop picking your nose.

All you talk is,as Michael Shermer says when speaking of your favourite meta physicist(lol two completely incompatible words,fused together by idiotic fundies)Deepsk Chopra "Woo Woo".
You talk utter shit,provide no evidence and try to put everyone down,whilst boasting of owning people.
Your ideas on the transcendent are without merit,evidence or substance.
Woo woo is all you religious types offer.
You still haven't coughed up the posts of yours where you apparently owned the poster 'the unforgiven'.
Give us something tangible for once as opposed to fusing polar concepts like your mate Deepak.

 

[M Malice]

great respectful exchange P35 and TP, really enjoyed it and got me contemplating my existence. i tend to agree with TP (i know that's a surprise P35 ) in that IF there is some kind of higher force all it is is a completely natural connection to nature that we as of yet don't understand/comprehend.

man made fairy tales= can not envision it.

 

[Total Power]

great respectful exchange P35 and TP, really enjoyed it and got me contemplating my existence. i tend to agree with TP (i know that's a surprise P35 ) in that IF there is some kind of higher force all it is is a completely natural connection to nature that we as of yet don't understand/comprehend.

man made fairy tales= can not envision it.

Its difficult to have respectful exchanges here mate, you cant ask the hard questions about scriptures, if you do then you are a lunatic, and p35 when he is not insulting can be a decent poster actually.

 

[Boston tiger]

Its difficult to have respectful exchanges here mate, you cant ask the hard questions about scriptures, if you do then you are a lunatic, and p35 when he is not insulting can be a decent poster actually.

Are pantheists grateful for their existence or is it a bit of a whatever thing as existence of anything was by accident so there is nothing to be grateful to. Verses the Christian concept of grateful to the creator of everything

 

[Total Power]

Are pantheists grateful for their existence or is it a bit of a whatever thing as existence of anything was by accident so there is nothing to be grateful to. Verses the Christian concept of grateful to the creator of everything

Many biblical verses say the Abrahamic god is omnipresent too, its not that much different than you think, but organised religion made it to be different, it suits them.I believe the entire Universe as God manifested into physical reality, or rather that the entire Universe is God. Because any view that anthropomorphizes God, or separates Him from His wonderful creation, effectively limits God and makes Him finite. When Moses came to the Burning Bush, God told him "I Am that I Am" . Reference from here

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/exodus/3-14.htm

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(14) I AM THAT I AM.—It is generally assumed that this is given to Moses as the full name of God. But perhaps it is rather a deep and mysterious statement of His nature. “I am that which I am.” My nature, i.e., cannot be declared in words, cannot be conceived of by human thought. I exist in such sort that my whole inscrutable nature is implied in my existence. I exist, as nothing else does—necessarily, eternally, really. If I am to give myself a name expressive of my nature, so far as language can be, let me be called “I AM.”


Therefore, basic Judeo-Christian tenants still stand such as "Love your neighbor as you love thyself", as both myself and my neighbor are equally facets of God, such that any sin against my neighbor is a sin against God. In Hinduism there is a similar verse A representative text in this regard (and one of my personal favorites) is Bhagavad Gītā 6:31:

sarvabhūtasthitaṃ yo māṃ bhajatyekatvam āsthitaḥ
sarvathā vartamāno'pi sa yogī mayi vartate

One who perceives me as dwelling in all beings, in whatever condition, such a yogi dwells in me.
This is symbolic ofcourse, should not be taking literally, but thats spirituality ofcourse, it conveys the same message that Jesus conveyed but aimed at a different target audience, so it wont be 100% similar, but you have to figure it out yourself.

So yeah suit yourself, thats what i believe in, you dont have to agree with me.

Thats why i had the whole argument with Bennett before, i strongly detest such fundamentalist translation of the Bible, the Bible essentially has an estoeric meaning to it, now you dont have to believe in god for it, but the Bible contains a lot of spiritual wisdom hidden in form of symbologies. That my opinion ofcourse

 

[The Unforgiven]

Its difficult to have respectful exchanges here mate, you cant ask the hard questions about scriptures, if you do then you are a lunatic, and p35 when he is not insulting can be a decent poster actually.

Ask the hard questions and you get abused. I love it actually. When fundamentalist Muppets get so flummoxed they lose their impulse control and lash out. It's a great sign that what they believe was built upon a foundation of complete and utter shit.

 

[Total Power]

Ask the hard questions and you get abused. I love it actually. When fundamentalist Muppets get so flummoxed they lose their impulse control and lash out. It's a great sign that what they believe was built upon a foundation of complete and utter shit.

Although i am not an atheism, i encourage atheism and critical thinking, you need to ask the hard questions.I was an once an atheist being born in a catholic family...i am not gullible nor i am into organised religion like church etc.

 

[The Unforgiven]

Are pantheists grateful for their existence or is it a bit of a whatever thing as existence of anything was by accident so there is nothing to be grateful to. Verses the Christian concept of grateful to the creator of everything

How can you be grateful to one creator? He doesn't create us all equal. Some get dealt worse cards than others. If your cards were good, good for you. However, doesn't it concern you slightly, even make you feel slightly ashamed that it's your very privilege which disables your ability to see this.

You thank your God for the things in your life that are good. You don't question him for all that is bad? You don't question why he allows children to be born or develop in early childhood disadvantages which preclude a normal life.

Bennett. said your Bible, like the Quran, is very clear on who can get into heaven. You have to first embrace God and believe in him. What you do after that is whether you get into Heaven. Being a good person alone is not enough, apparently.

A friend of my wife's has two kids, one with cerebral palsy, the other with spina bifida AND an ASD. It's fair to say they don't feel they got dealt the best hands. It's fair to say also, that if they told God to go and shove it, one would understand. Not your God though! As if they hadn't already been punished enough, God will send them to burn in the fire.

Your God is a disgraceful, despicable, mean, selfish, violent, narcissistic, blood-thirsty psychopath. The fact that you can't objectively view ALL the facts for what they are makes you and all of your numpty fundamentalist mates unpredictable and dangerous.

 

[Boston tiger]

Ask the hard questions and you get abused. I love it actually. When fundamentalist Muppets get so flummoxed they lose their impulse control and lash out. It's a great sign that what they believe was built upon a foundation of complete and utter shit.

Do you think the world is flat?
Why aren't you a Muslim?

I think you are getting moronic mixed up with hard there muppet boy.

 

[The Unforgiven]

Do you think the world is flat?
Why aren't you a Muslim?

I think you are getting moronic mixed up with hard there muppet boy.

Any chance you're going to post something coherent this century?

 

[Boston tiger]

Many biblical verses say the Abrahamic god is omnipresent too, its not that much different than you think, but organised religion made it to be different, it suits them.I believe the entire Universe as God manifested into physical reality, or rather that the entire Universe is God. Because any view that anthropomorphizes God, or separates Him from His wonderful creation, effectively limits God and makes Him finite. When Moses came to the Burning Bush, God told him "I Am that I Am" . Reference from here

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/exodus/3-14.htm

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(14) I AM THAT I AM.—It is generally assumed that this is given to Moses as the full name of God. But perhaps it is rather a deep and mysterious statement of His nature. “I am that which I am.” My nature, i.e., cannot be declared in words, cannot be conceived of by human thought. I exist in such sort that my whole inscrutable nature is implied in my existence. I exist, as nothing else does—necessarily, eternally, really. If I am to give myself a name expressive of my nature, so far as language can be, let me be called “I AM.”


Therefore, basic Judeo-Christian tenants still stand such as "Love your neighbor as you love thyself", as both myself and my neighbor are equally facets of God, such that any sin against my neighbor is a sin against God. In Hinduism there is a similar verse A representative text in this regard (and one of my personal favorites) is Bhagavad Gītā 6:31:

sarvabhūtasthitaṃ yo māṃ bhajatyekatvam āsthitaḥ
sarvathā vartamāno'pi sa yogī mayi vartate

One who perceives me as dwelling in all beings, in whatever condition, such a yogi dwells in me.
This is symbolic ofcourse, should not be taking literally, but thats spirituality ofcourse, it conveys the same message that Jesus conveyed but aimed at a different target audience, so it wont be 100% similar, but you have to figure it out yourself.

So yeah suit yourself, thats what i believe in, you dont have to agree with me.

Thats why i had the whole argument with Bennett before, i strongly detest such fundamentalist translation of the Bible, the Bible essentially has an estoeric meaning to it, now you dont have to believe in god for it, but the Bible contains a lot of spiritual wisdom hidden in form of symbologies. That my opinion ofcourse

So God is still the creator? I just need clarification on that. Eg he is the creator because he was never created but has manifested himself physically as the universe ?

 

[Procrastinator35]

Ask the hard questions and you get abused. I love it actually. When fundamentalist Muppets get so flummoxed they lose their impulse control and lash out. It's a great sign that what they believe was built upon a foundation of complete and utter shit.

Riveting argument.....Adds SFA to the thread & only mimics your own criticisms in reinforcing antagonism, you silly.

Exactly whose Alias are you by the way?

 

[The Unforgiven]

Riveting argument.....Adds SFA to the thread & only mimics your own criticisms in reinforcing antagonism, you silly.

Exactly whose Alias are you by the way?

Don't be ridiculous. Simple questions to those that cannot back up their opinions come across as antagonistic...

Exactly whose alias are you? I'm sure that Procrastinator isn't your real name.

 

[Boston tiger]

Don't be ridiculous. Simple questions to those that cannot back up their opinions come across as antagonistic...

Exactly whose alias are you? I'm sure that Procrastinator isn't your real name.

Your simple questions have been.

Do you think the world is flat ?
Why aren't you a Muslim ?

And you're admitted to your mate that you are asking types of questions that will have a predictable answers.

It's funny that on this thread the only people with sob stories are the atheists.
My mum this... my dad said this..ostracized etc etc . Then like to play the clever unbiased view on this all.
Tear down one point of view to try and validate another.