Sport The Hangar Cricket Thread IV

[ant555]

lyon was totally out of left field and had hardly showed promise at shield level.

True but he showed a level of improvement that the current players have not so far.
Was also the leading wicket taker for SA in the early days of 20/20. Once he got in the side he kept going forward.

 

[boncer34]

lyon was totally out of left field and had hardly showed promise at shield level.

Lyon had 14 wickets at 45 from 5 first class games when he debuted, and one of those was a warm up game leading into his first test.

Then he found Kumar's edge first ball and the rest is history.

 

[katana]

True but he showed a level of improvement that the current players have not so far.

murphy has shown miles more than lyon did prior to selection. lyon is blowing his hammy up fetching a simple ball in the outfield, he's pretty much cooked imo, australia have five tests in india in twelve months. the time to be finding an international spinner is right now.

 

[ant555]

murphy has shown miles more than lyon did prior to selection. lyon is blowing his hammy up fetching a simple ball in the outfield, he's pretty much cooked imo, australia have five tests in india in twelve months. the time to be finding an international spinner is right now.

We have guys who can bowl on sub continent wickets.Next summer will be interesting but Murphy playing one test at a venue that has not been spin friendly in the last 5 years at any level hardly moves the needle.
Their slog preparation will be around the August tests and what pitches we get in Shield cricket early.

Murphy may have done more at shield level but Lyon got the nod off some white ball stuff and he took wickets straight away at the next level.

I would have played Murphy in front of Green but the fact is none of these guys have improved in Australia as far as form goes.

 

[doug85]

Is the issues with spin more a sign that they are an average bunch?
Couple of them have done okay in the sub continent but in general they have just been average in shield cricket.

If we had someone who showed a bit more promise I suspect they would have played.
Problem is there are no spin friendly wickets here now.
SCG has not been a spin wicket for over 5 years.

We virtually have to have a Lyon quality spinner or better for them to get a game. Even Morse so with the green wickets we are preparing.

I take issue with us picking only 3 specialist bowlers on that wicket. Webster hardly bowled and Green is in dreadful form. All of our frontline bowlers are 35+ which is very risky.

Should’ve picked any specialist bowler over green IMO.

 

[ant555]

I take issue with us picking only 3 specialist bowlers on that wicket. Webster hardly bowled and Green is in dreadful form. All of our frontline bowlers are 35+ which is very risky.

Should’ve picked any specialist bowler over green IMO.

I do not disagree. I would have picked him in front of Green.
I just do not think it is automatic to pick a spinner if they are not backing it with form. Picking a spinner for the sake of picking one.
The dearth of spin bowlers has more to do with shield pitches and how we develop them at shield level.

 

[Zach Package]

The MCG was simply a lottery.
We have never handled bowlers with sideways movement but in the end the difference was they have a few guys with better hitting abilities in those conditions due to Baz ball. Their slog was better than ours on the day.

That part I do agree with, but particularly their batting group looked freed up at what is essentially a free swing at the pegs in their minds.

Obviously when the pressure was on they wilted in literally record time, and that bears repeating as well.

 

[ant555]

Green really is the Peter Wright of Cricket.

 

[Yoda_]

The spinner saga has a few ideas behind it all of which could play a part by interpretation.

None are good enough? neither was Nathan Lyon but he was fast tracked.

The NSW boys club strikes again. This is partly true, the AUS selectors even tried to fast track Lyon into the T20I side when he had hardly played. That was just odd back when it happened.

The lack of development in this country of young players, in any sport is some of the worst in the world. Not just cricket now. Netball, Rugby, NBL, feels like players will have multiple clubs on a resume in a desperate bid to win now.
Look at the BBL sides, especially Tas & SA, how many NSW are on lists? over half? feels like it..

The pitches are so pace friendly, if not batting friendly I na bid to help "develop" batters. Even then, none are jumping off the board.

Bowlers are kept to a different expectation. Lloyd Pope is simply a wicket taker. He goes at 4.11 (first class stat) per over, Nathan Lloy goes at 2.92, Todd Murphy 3.01, Kuhnemann 3.22, even leg spinners Swepson 3.36. That's just my observation on spinners. T20 probably not helping this. God help Tanveer Sangha.

Would be super curious when the last time a spinner took 10 wickets in a match?

 

[eth-dog]

I do think the decks are partially to blame. More curators have to have the courage to put out a road on days 1 and 2 in hopes that it breaks up and turns on days 3 and 4. Most are doing green pitches which turn out to be roads on days 3 and 4, which basically makes it a win the toss and bowl pitch as you know you can chase 350+ on day 4 or bat out a draw.

The pitch in Sydney is ripe for a spinner. England should have dropped Duckett, played Jacks as a bat (I'd have opened with him) and played Bashir. We should have played Murphy over one of the all rounders (probably Green), but Webster and Marnus probably bowl spin second innings.

And the thing is, I do like our spin stocks. Murphy looks like a Graeme Swann clone, Kuhnemann is the perfect foil for when we need a second spinner, Rocc looks like a good third spinner and Sangha has serious tricks, just needs consistency in selection as well as bowling.

I can legitimately see all four playing a sub continent test together if we had the balls to do it.

 

[ant555]

The spinner saga has a few ideas behind it all of which could play a part by interpretation.

None are good enough? neither was Nathan Lyon but he was fast tracked.

The NSW boys club strikes again. This is partly true, the AUS selectors even tried to fast track Lyon into the T20I side when he had hardly played. That was just odd back when it happened.

The lack of development in this country of young players, in any sport is some of the worst in the world. Not just cricket now. Netball, Rugby, NBL, feels like players will have multiple clubs on a resume in a desperate bid to win now.
Look at the BBL sides, especially Tas & SA, how many NSW are on lists? over half? feels like it..

The pitches are so pace friendly, if not batting friendly I na bid to help "develop" batters. Even then, none are jumping off the board.

Bowlers are kept to a different expectation. Lloyd Pope is simply a wicket taker. He goes at 4.11 (first class stat) per over, Nathan Lloy goes at 2.92, Todd Murphy 3.01, Kuhnemann 3.22, even leg spinners Swepson 3.36. That's just my observation on spinners. T20 probably not helping this. God help Tanveer Sangha.

Would be super curious when the last time a spinner took 10 wickets in a match?

NSW boys club. Yeah right. Victorian foil hat club. It has been the green pitches that has spooked them. Should have played Murphy this time but the SCG has not actually produced good results for spin recently. Even at shield level.
They made the wrong call but it is hardly a massive mistake.

Just on Lyon he had T20 form for SA before he played international cricket.
He was fast tracked because he showed something and they where right as he took wickets straight away.

Best stay in your lane with Rugby. Reason they are crap is league poach a lot of the young stars at 16/17 and the AFL has also made inroads in several of the big private schools that where Rigby dominant.

Netball simply has new competition from AFL / cricket / soccer and to a slightly lesser extent RL. They are losing young players and sponsorship dollars.

Agree our cricket development could use a few tweeks and the shield pitches have had issues.

 

[Yoda_]

NSW boys club. Yeah right. Victorian foil hat club. It has been the green pitches that has spooked them. Should have played Murphy this time but the SCG has not actually produced good results for spin recently. Even at shield level.
They made the wrong call but it is hardly a massive mistake.

Just on Lyon he had T20 form for SA before he played international cricket.
He was fast tracked because he showed something and they where right as he took wickets straight away.

Best stay in your lane with Rugby. Reason they are crap is league poach a lot of the young stars at 16/17 and the AFL has also made inroads in several of the big private schools that where Rigby dominant.

Netball simply has new competition from AFL / cricket / soccer and to a slightly lesser extent RL. They are losing young players and sponsorship dollars.

Agree our cricket development could use a few tweeks and the shield pitches have had issues.

you've missed my point re development across multiple sports (including rugby)

The NSW boys club exists, whether you like it or not. Sean Abbott ring a bell? bloke continues to be picked in test squads despite never having played a test, would be a perfect opportunity to expose the next generation yet the desperation to get him a cap astounds many.

Lyon may have shown something but bowlers had proven experience in T20 cricket. The selectors going off a sniff? see point 1

Curators even at district level are producing less quality wickets than ever before. I know that as a fact. Recent players survey backs that up as well with a number of comments about how minimal spin is taking to most wickets these days.

 

[boncer34]

The spinner saga has a few ideas behind it all of which could play a part by interpretation.

None are good enough? neither was Nathan Lyon but he was fast tracked.

The NSW boys club strikes again. This is partly true, the AUS selectors even tried to fast track Lyon into the T20I side when he had hardly played. That was just odd back when it happened.

The lack of development in this country of young players, in any sport is some of the worst in the world. Not just cricket now. Netball, Rugby, NBL, feels like players will have multiple clubs on a resume in a desperate bid to win now.
Look at the BBL sides, especially Tas & SA, how many NSW are on lists? over half? feels like it..

The pitches are so pace friendly, if not batting friendly I na bid to help "develop" batters. Even then, none are jumping off the board.

Bowlers are kept to a different expectation. Lloyd Pope is simply a wicket taker. He goes at 4.11 (first class stat) per over, Nathan Lloy goes at 2.92, Todd Murphy 3.01, Kuhnemann 3.22, even leg spinners Swepson 3.36. That's just my observation on spinners. T20 probably not helping this. God help Tanveer Sangha.

Would be super curious when the last time a spinner took 10 wickets in a match?

So close, 0 NSW players play for the Hurricanes and 2 out of 21 listed Strikers players have played for NSW.

 

[Yoda_]

So close, 0 NSW players play for the Hurricanes and 2 out of 21 listed Strikers players have played for NSW.

I was referring to players born in NSW

Adelaide has Harry (& Ben) Mannenti, Jason Sangha, Henry Thornton, Liam Scott,

Hobart has Jackson Bird, Nathan Ellis, Tim Ward


Apologies, should know better than hyperbole on bigfooty.

Some actual numbers, 90/22 who played in the Adelaide v Tasmania shield game were born in NSW (Henry Hunt, Tim Ward, Jordan Silk, Jake Doran, Jackson Bird, Nathan McAndrew, Liam Scott, Harry Nielsen, Ben Manenti)

That is a non NSW game

 

[Old Campaigner]

you've missed my point re development across multiple sports (including rugby)

The NSW boys club exists, whether you like it or not. Sean Abbott ring a bell? bloke continues to be picked in test squads despite never having played a test, would be a perfect opportunity to expose the next generation yet the desperation to get him a cap astounds many.

Lyon may have shown something but bowlers had proven experience in T20 cricket. The selectors going off a sniff? see point 1

Curators even at district level are producing less quality wickets than ever before. I know that as a fact. Recent players survey backs that up as well with a number of comments about how minimal spin is taking to most wickets these days.

Sean Abbott is 33, hardly the next generation

 

[Yoda_]

Sean Abbott is 33, hardly the next generation

exactly my point, why does he keep getting picked in squads despite not having played a test?

 

[boncer34]

I was referring to players born in NSW

Adelaide has Harry (& Ben) Mannenti, Jason Sangha, Henry Thornton, Liam Scott,

Hobart has Jackson Bird, Nathan Ellis, Tim Ward


Apologies, should know better than hyperbole on bigfooty.

Some actual numbers, 90/22 who played in the Adelaide v Tasmania shield game were born in NSW (Henry Hunt, Tim Ward, Jordan Silk, Jake Doran, Jackson Bird, Nathan McAndrew, Liam Scott, Harry Nielsen, Ben Manenti)

That is a non NSW game

Jackson Bird, Tim Ward and Nathan Ellis have never played for NSW except a spell late in Birds career. They developed in Tasmania, calling them NSW players is absurd.

Edit: Neither have the Manenti brothers, Thornton or Scott.

Tell me Yoda, is Usman an Australian?

 

[katana]

Jackson Bird, Tim Ward and Nathan Ellis have never played for NSW. They developed in Tasmania, calling them NSW players is absurd.

Edit: Neither have the Manenti brothers, Thornton or Scott.

bird was well in to his 20s when he left NSW, fair to say he did a fair amount of his development in nsw.

 

[Yoda_]

bird was well in to his 20s when he left NSW, fair to say he did a fair amount of his development in nsw.

ditto Nathan Ellis, (about 24)

 

[boncer34]

bird was well in to his 20s when he left NSW, fair to say he did a fair amount of his development in nsw.

Not the state side. He's a Tasmanian bowler.

And even if you want to pretend a players birthplace automatically makes them that player, Yoda listed 3 Hobart players. Not exactly the "over half the squad" claim he made.

 

[boncer34]

ditto Nathan Ellis, (about 24)

Jackson Bird, Tim Ward and Nathan Ellis have never played for NSW except a spell late in Birds career. They developed in Tasmania, calling them NSW players is absurd.

Edit: Neither have the Manenti brothers, Thornton or Scott.

Tell me Yoda, is Usman an Australian?

 

[ant555]

you've missed my point re development across multiple sports (including rugby)

The NSW boys club exists, whether you like it or not. Sean Abbott ring a bell? bloke continues to be picked in test squads despite never having played a test, would be a perfect opportunity to expose the next generation yet the desperation to get him a cap astounds many.

Lyon may have shown something but bowlers had proven experience in T20 cricket. The selectors going off a sniff? see point 1

Curators even at district level are producing less quality wickets than ever before. I know that as a fact. Recent players survey backs that up as well with a number of comments about how minimal spin is taking to most wickets these days.

Sorry if you really think it is real then there is zero point having a genuine conversation.
The coach is a Victorian FFS. Took over from a West Australian.
Head of selection is a Tasmanian.
Foil is probably on special at Coles this week.

As for your point.
Well it is usually poorly researched and random.
Abbott. So you found a bloke they rate but hasn’t played and is from NSW.
Lyon played his early cricket in Canberra grade cricket and for the Canberra Comets in one day cricket. He was not ever a mainstay of the NSW system and got most of his development in SA.
They obviously got his selection right.

And what about Rugby. If you think what I said is wrong then you clearly have no idea.

 

[boncer34]

Sorry if you really think it is real then there is zero point having a genuine conversation.
The coach is a Victorian FFS. Took over from a West Australian.
Head of selection is a Tasmanian.
Foil is probably on special at Coles this week.

It probably felt real 20 odd years ago (Beau Casson anyone?) but its not anymore.

 

[ant555]

It probably felt real 20 odd years ago (Beau Casson anyone?) but its not anymore.

There are a few but there always are. The whole thing grew legs after Jones was dropped from the test side and some Victorian players like Berry who also seemed to miss out all the time started preaching it.

Edit
It was BS that Jones got dropped. Think it was more a coach / player thing than a NSW / VIC thing.

 

[Old Campaigner]

There are a few but there always are. The whole thing grew legs after Jones was dropped from the test side and some Victorian players like Berry who also seemed to miss out all the time started preaching it.

Berry, like McGill, Elliott and Siddons had the misfortune to come through when one of the greatest sides in cricket history was around so they didn't get many opportunities (if any). There's no need to invent NSW bias conspiracies.

That era was littered with players who would be first picked in most sides today but found themselves stuck playing shield cricket because the national side was so dominant