Sport The Hangar Cricket Thread IV

[boncer34]

Berry, like McGill, Elliott and Siddons had the misfortune to come through when one of the greatest sides in cricket history was around so they didn't get many opportunities (if any). There's no need to invent NSW bias conspiracies.

That era was littered with players who would be first picked in most sides today but found themselves stuck playing shield cricket because the national side was so dominant

Hodge, D Hussey

 

[katana]

Not the state side. He's a Tasmanian bowler.

And even if you want to pretend a players birthplace automatically makes them that player, Yoda listed 3 Hobart players. Not exactly the "over half the squad" claim he made.

i thought it was more in relation to development pathways.

 

[Yoda_]

Sorry if you really think it is real then there is zero point having a genuine conversation.
The coach is a Victorian FFS. Took over from a West Australian.
Head of selection is a Tasmanian.
Foil is probably on special at Coles this week.

As for your point.
Well it is usually poorly researched and random.
Abbott. So you found a bloke they rate but hasn’t played and is from NSW.
Lyon played his early cricket in Canberra grade cricket and for the Canberra Comets in one day cricket. He was not ever a mainstay of the NSW system and got most of his development in SA.
They obviously got his selection right.

And what about Rugby. If you think what I said is wrong then you clearly have no idea.

I thought you were better than bullying Ant.

Again, for the third time, you have missed my point re the development of players with regards to how many play for multiple clubs. Has nothing to do with other codes catching up and everything to do with the win-now mentality that has crept into Aussie sport. We'll be like Soccer soon where if youre not winning inside 2 seasons you will be fired.

 

[Sporno 4 Pyros]

exactly my point, why does he keep getting picked in squads despite not having played a test?

Abbot keeps getting selected in squads because he is the next best in line. Just unfortunate for the kid he has been stuck behind Cummins, Starc, Hazelwood and Boland.

Boland didn’t get his first cap until he was 32 and has been kept out by those 3 who have been injury free for a long time leading up to this series.

 

[Yoda_]

for the record, I do not seriously think there is a NSW bias thing. Couldn't give a shit. My gripe is when a bloke like 33 year old Sean Abbott is consistently picked as depth when he hasn't even debuted in lieu of us needing to blood the next generation of Australian players is my gripe. When some players deserve to be dropped but consistently stay in the team despite underwhelming performances.

It's been a boys club for years, can argue all you want. See Khawaja getting back into the team when even he was probably undeserving of that opportunity. See Cam Green staying in the side. See Josh Inglis (I dont particularly rate) being the incumbent test keeper despite so-so shield performances. We are a win now nation and have been under George Bailey's watch. Will be found out in a new cycle about to dawn on us with little to no exposure for the next cluster of stars.

 

[boncer34]

Criticising the test team for a "win now" mentality.

There's plenty of time left in the year but going to be hard to find a more ridiculous argument.

 

[eth-dog]

Hodge, D Hussey

Dave couldn't play the short ball at all. Think he would have struggled at test level regardless of era

 

[boncer34]

Dave couldn't play the short ball at all. Think he would have struggled at test level regardless of era

Only player outside of India to average 54 during their FC career and never get a test.

I think, its been awhile since I read that one.

In short, he was stiff.

 

[eth-dog]

Only player outside of India to average 54 during their FC career and never get a test.

I think, its been awhile since I read that one.

In short, he was stiff.

Yeah he was, I think in the current era he'd get a shot but would get found out by Bumrah, Ramada etc still

 

[ant555]

I thought you were better than bullying Ant.

Again, for the third time, you have missed my point re the development of players with regards to how many play for multiple clubs. Has nothing to do with other codes catching up and everything to do with the win-now mentality that has crept into Aussie sport. We'll be like Soccer soon where if youre not winning inside 2 seasons you will be fired.

This is the first time you have actually articulated your point and to be honest I could not give a rats if you think I am bulling you.

Player movement in Sheild Cricket is not new. It goes back a long way.
What has happened is money. Money gets better. Players look for more opportunity to earn a dollar. Cricket Australia is looking to find new revenue via T20 as globally T20 has eaten away at test cricket to the point there are only two sides CA can make money out of and that is India and England.
it is not simply win at all costs. It is about money and winning.

Part of the issue with the pathways is that cricketers have to land a BBL contract to make a decent living from Cricket over the summer and open them up for other competitions (outside of the IPL). To do that they have to hone their game to suit T20 so we are seeing a decline in batting but also a decline in spin bowling as in general you have to bowl flatter and a bit quicker in white ball cricket. Has not really hurt the seem bowling as line and length and control are transferable.

 

[Yoda_]

Remember when T20 was going to be the death of spin bowling? its now arguably its biggest asset as seen with some BBL teams running three in one XI this BBL season.

The good ones take wickets (see Lloyd Pope, Mitch Swepson, Adam Zampa still takes wickets) at T20 level, the average ones are more concerned about runs per over imho.

 

[Yoda_]

This is the first time you have actually articulated your point and to be honest I could not give a rats if you think I am bulling you.

Player movement in Sheild Cricket is not new. It goes back a long way.
What has happened is money. Money gets better. Players look for more opportunity to earn a dollar. Cricket Australia is looking to find new revenue via T20 as globally T20 has eaten away at test cricket to the point there are only two sides CA can make money out of and that is India and England.
it is not simply win at all costs. It is about money and winning.

Part of the issue with the pathways is that cricketers have to land a BBL contract to make a decent living from Cricket over the summer and open them up for other competitions (outside of the IPL). To do that they have to hone their game to suit T20 so we are seeing a decline in batting but also a decline in spin bowling as in general you have to bowl flatter and a bit quicker in white ball cricket. Has not really hurt the seem bowling as line and length and control are transferable.

its the win now mentality that bothers me. Victoria have blooded a 26/27 year old Blake McDonald when they should really be giving chances to the next batch of stars Dylan Brasher needs to be playing before summer is out.. Admittedly poor example with them having such a young group but point remains, he is not an established SS cricketer. We have David Moody who will no doubt be taking the new ball ahead of younger quicks soon enough. Just two examples in the Victorian set up

Knowing a dad of a fairly prominent District cricketer well, he has said Jono will never be given an opportunity because Vics dont like to do so. Brodie Symons (Frankston Peninsula) moved to Prahran for better exposure, he has now moved north to Qld for more exposure.

Im probably validating your point as well as my own gripe with not helping develop ones own states youth.

 

[ant555]

for the record, I do not seriously think there is a NSW bias thing. Couldn't give a shit. My gripe is when a bloke like 33 year old Sean Abbott is consistently picked as depth when he hasn't even debuted in lieu of us needing to blood the next generation of Australian players is my gripe. When some players deserve to be dropped but consistently stay in the team despite underwhelming performances.

It's been a boys club for years, can argue all you want. See Khawaja getting back into the team when even he was probably undeserving of that opportunity. See Cam Green staying in the side. See Josh Inglis (I dont particularly rate) being the incumbent test keeper despite so-so shield performances. We are a win now nation and have been under George Bailey's watch. Will be found out in a new cycle about to dawn on us with little to no exposure for the next cluster of stars.

Test Cricket has always been win now.
What as actually changed is the young talent is preparing to play more T20. Look at the shield averages. Most of the young blokes average 30-35. You can complain about Green but he averages over 50 in first class cricket so you can see why they give him some rope.
Who are these young stars we are not giving a go that are making runs and are the future ?
Shield this year. Top run scorers.
Ward - 27 ave 40
Handscombe 34 ave 35
Lehmann 33 ave 42
Renshaw 29 ave 70
Hunt 29 ave 41
Bancroft 33 ave 33
Labuschange 33 ave 67
Konstas 20 ave 32
Silk 33 ave 35
Doran 29 ave 36
One young bloke in the top 10 run scorers in Konstas who they did give a go but he really did have to go back and sort out his game.
There has been talk about Ollie Peake but his first class average is 22.
There is not next cluster of stars.
We are in the same boat as every other country. What will happen is we will continue to produce good to champion seem bowlers and we will just cycle in players at 25 to 30 years old who average 35 to 40 and hope that we find a Travis Head who will in time bump his average up into the 40's.
The next bloke we really need to have another look at is Renshaw and he is 29. Unfortunately our last generation star in Will P had to retire early.

 

[ant555]

Remember when T20 was going to be the death of spin bowling? its now arguably its biggest asset as seen with some BBL teams running three in one XI this BBL season.

The good ones take wickets (see Lloyd Pope, Mitch Swepson, Adam Zampa still takes wickets) at T20 level, the average ones are more concerned about runs per over imho.

Yes and they all bowl a different style compare to test cricket. Flat. Darting into at the stumps. Limited flight so the batsmen can not hit them. It is a different skill set compared to what they need at red ball cricket. All bowlers in T20 are concerned about runs per over.

 

[ant555]

its the win now mentality that bothers me. Victoria have blooded a 26/27 year old Blake McDonald when they should really be giving chances to the next batch of stars Dylan Brasher needs to be playing before summer is out.. Admittedly poor example with them having such a young group but point remains, he is not an established SS cricketer. We have David Moody who will no doubt be taking the new ball ahead of younger quicks soon enough. Just two examples in the Victorian set up

Knowing a dad of a fairly prominent District cricketer well, he has said Jono will never be given an opportunity because Vics dont like to do so. Brodie Symons (Frankston Peninsula) moved to Prahran for better exposure, he has now moved north to Qld for more exposure.

Im probably validating your point as well as my own gripe with not helping develop ones own states youth.

Dare I say it but what we may actually need is an Australian Academy side playing against Shield sides and also an Australian A side playing more games here and on wickets prepared for various conditions. It is no real surprise that the amount of genuine test bats have declined since T20 and the money it brings has changed the focus of where young cricketers want to go. The best chance you have of making $300k plus in cricket is playing T20.

 

[ant555]

Hopefully Sangha Kellaway can finish out the Sheild season well. Both where good last year but have plateaued a bit so far this year.

 

[Yoda_]

Hopefully Sangha Kellaway can finish out the Sheild season well. Both where good last year but have plateaued a bit so far this year.

Kellaway has improved since last season, Sagha has regressed

Peake is the big one for Australian cricket. Kid looks absolutely built for any form of cricket.

 

[Yoda_]

Test Cricket has always been win now.
What as actually changed is the young talent is preparing to play more T20. Look at the shield averages. Most of the young blokes average 30-35. You can complain about Green but he averages over 50 in first class cricket so you can see why they give him some rope.
Who are these young stars we are not giving a go that are making runs and are the future ?
Shield this year. Top run scorers.
Ward - 27 ave 40
Handscombe 34 ave 35
Lehmann 33 ave 42
Renshaw 29 ave 70
Hunt 29 ave 41
Bancroft 33 ave 33
Labuschange 33 ave 67
Konstas 20 ave 32
Silk 33 ave 35
Doran 29 ave 36
One young bloke in the top 10 run scorers in Konstas who they did give a go but he really did have to go back and sort out his game.
There has been talk about Ollie Peake but his first class average is 22.
There is not next cluster of stars.
We are in the same boat as every other country. What will happen is we will continue to produce good to champion seem bowlers and we will just cycle in players at 25 to 30 years old who average 35 to 40 and hope that we find a Travis Head who will in time bump his average up into the 40's.
The next bloke we really need to have another look at is Renshaw and he is 29. Unfortunately our last generation star in Will P had to retire early.

im reffering to the blokes who cross a border for another opportunity. Blake McDonald has already played FC cricket for NSW and wasn't good enough. Jake Doran wasn't good enough for NSW. that list could add numerous more names. Australian cricket is scared to give youngsters a go. Imagine Dylan Brasher was afforded an opportunity in lieu of Blake McDonald? that is what bothers me. Across numerous sports. Dont give me the "they probably aren't ready" line because you simply dont know if you dont give them a chance.

Harry Kane was to be sold by Daniel Levy, it was only because Harry Redknapp desperately needed someone that he gave HK a go and the rest is history. That list could add numerous more names across many sports

 

[ant555]

im reffering to the blokes who cross a border for another opportunity. Blake McDonald has already played FC cricket for NSW and wasn't good enough. Jake Doran wasn't good enough for NSW. that list could add numerous more names. Australian cricket is scared to give youngsters a go. Imagine Dylan Brasher was afforded an opportunity in lieu of Blake McDonald? that is what bothers me. Across numerous sports. Dont give me the "they probably aren't ready" line because you simply dont know if you dont give them a chance.

Harry Kane was to be sold by Daniel Levy, it was only because Harry Redknapp desperately needed someone that he gave HK a go and the rest is history. That list could add numerous more names across many sports

Players who where not good enough for NSW is more of an issue that NSW has had in the last 10 or so years. It has not operated all that well and has plenty of factions.

What you are really not understanding is how T20 has changed the development and mindset of players. It is about opportunity to make a living out of cricket so the majority are not going to pigeonhole themselves to play test cricket.
T20 has changed the game more than what you want to accept. It is not the same as when Ponting and co came through. The top dollar was playing for your country in test or one day cricket. Now that next level down players can make anywhere from $300k to $600k playing BBL and other T20 comps the goal is not as focused on playing test cricket.

We do know that they are actually not good enough as most have serious flaws in their games at Sheild level and struggle to average more than 30. None have made the runs in Shield cricket or grade cricket for that matter.

The mentality of the next wave has changed. It is no longer everyone wants to play test cricket for Australia. There is more opportunity if they concentrate on T20 style so there are less young blokes that have the dream of playing test cricket and more who want to play T20.

Australian Cricket will give young blokes a go but the pool has been diluted by a newer form of the game that offers more players a chance to make a good living for 10 or so years.

As far as Blake McDonald goes he was not recruited by Victoria. He came to play grade cricket for St.Kilda after NSW chopped him. he got a stars contract last year but did not play a game. he moved down here as a 24 year old player looking for new opportunity with no state contract and did well enough in grade cricket to get a look in. Brasher is only 2 years younger.
Not sure how you have an issue with Victoria selecting McDonald given the circumstances as he was not specifically targeted by them.

There are no young blokes who have averaged 40+ batting in their first few years that have not been given a chance.

 

[ant555]

Kellaway has improved since last season, Sagha has regressed

Peake is the big one for Australian cricket. Kid looks absolutely built for any form of cricket.

Kellaway has dropped from averaging 41 last year to 32 so far this year. Would not say he has improved.

Interesting you mention Peake. He is only averaging 22 at first class level and 36 in one day cricket. Only young at 19 but still has time.

 

[Yoda_]

Kellaway has dropped from averaging 41 last year to 32 so far this year. Would not say he has improved.

Interesting you mention Peake. He is only averaging 22 at first class level and 36 in one day cricket. Only young at 19 but still has time.

Have watched a fair bit of Campbell this season, his shot selection is more assured and looks much more confident. Although the runs aren't coming, he certainly passes the eye test compared to last season

 

[Yoda_]

Players who where not good enough for NSW is more of an issue that NSW has had in the last 10 or so years. It has not operated all that well and has plenty of factions.

What you are really not understanding is how T20 has changed the development and mindset of players. It is about opportunity to make a living out of cricket so the majority are not going to pigeonhole themselves to play test cricket.
T20 has changed the game more than what you want to accept. It is not the same as when Ponting and co came through. The top dollar was playing for your country in test or one day cricket. Now that next level down players can make anywhere from $300k to $600k playing BBL and other T20 comps the goal is not as focused on playing test cricket.

We do know that they are actually not good enough as most have serious flaws in their games at Sheild level and struggle to average more than 30. None have made the runs in Shield cricket or grade cricket for that matter.

The mentality of the next wave has changed. It is no longer everyone wants to play test cricket for Australia. There is more opportunity if they concentrate on T20 style so there are less young blokes that have the dream of playing test cricket and more who want to play T20.

Australian Cricket will give young blokes a go but the pool has been diluted by a newer form of the game that offers more players a chance to make a good living for 10 or so years.

Most youngsters will play, and chase a test dream, having a keen interest, think it'll slowly get younger with the T20 circuit taking over. Won't be surprised to see more state / first class cricketers go back to AFL footy at 21, 22, 23, 24 and give it a real shot if they aren't in the second XI set up, let alone the first XI's.

Australian cricket is still focusing on the longer form of games, a lot of people want to bash on T20 cricket but even district level has a minimal amount of T20 games. My two local comps have hit and giggle cricket mid week for those who enjoy it but the main focus is still longer form cricket.

Even at second XI level, it is longer form cricket.

As far as Blake McDonald goes he was not recruited by Victoria. He came to play grade cricket for St.Kilda after NSW chopped him. he got a stars contract last year but did not play a game. he moved down here as a 24 year old player looking for new opportunity with no state contract and did well enough in grade cricket to get a look in. Brasher is only 2 years younger.
Not sure how you have an issue with Victoria selecting McDonald given the circumstances as he was not specifically targeted by them.

Blake was invited to Victoria

 

[ant555]

Have watched a fair bit of Campbell this season, his shot selection is more assured and looks much more confident. Although the runs aren't coming, he certainly passes the eye test compared to last season

Yet he is getting out and making less runs.
Not saying he can not turn it around but the facts are the facts. Still playing okay but has fallen back a little.
At the end of the day it is about runs. The eye test is what it is. An opinion.

 

[ant555]

Most youngsters will play, and chase a test dream, having a keen interest, think it'll slowly get younger with the T20 circuit taking over. Won't be surprised to see more state / first class cricketers go back to AFL footy at 21, 22, 23, 24 and give it a real shot if they aren't in the second XI set up, let alone the first XI's.

Australian cricket is still focusing on the longer form of games, a lot of people want to bash on T20 cricket but even district level has a minimal amount of T20 games. My two local comps have hit and giggle cricket mid week for those who enjoy it but the main focus is still longer form cricket.

Even at second XI level, it is longer form cricket.


Blake was invited to Victoria

First I never said CA didn’t put test cricket first. Obviously they do.
Second I was not bashing T20. I was pointing out that it has changed the landscape. It has given players more opportunities to play full time cricket and make $200k plus in Australia.
It has changed the mindset.
Despite T20 not taking over grade cricket more players are basing their game to have a crack at T20 and the money it brings as there are simply more spots for them. Previously you had Australian contracts as full time and shield players being majority semi pro. That is the change.
No sure I agree more players will switch back to football.
White ball cricket is presenting more opportunities now.

As far as Blake goes I should have explained better. He was not guaranteed anything and what is wrong with bringing down a 24 year old to see what he may have

 

[eth-dog]

God Brydon Carse you both suck and are stupid.

It isn't out. Marnus wasn't out, Smith wasn't out, Khawaja wasn't out and Weatherald wasn't out. Two were given out, two weren't. Smith and Khawaja are the ones who can feel aggrieved, as before Smith's dismissal that had always been considered not out.