Tertiary and Continuing The Law Thread

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Chief said:
While I'm here - how much work are you all doing on research and the like? QUT's philosophy seems to include a heavy dose of teaching what lawyers do as well as what they should know.

For instance a few people (on here and people I know) have mentioned they don't read cases. We've had assignments where we have to read cases and work out the ratio, obiter and other features of the report. Right now we've got two research assignments on the go, requiring a lot of reading of secondary material, legislation and cases to learn areas of torts law from scratch, unassisted. It's not possible to complete these assignments without this reading and hope to get a Credit or above. I could be wrong but this seems not to be the norm around the place, specially at places like UQ, where The Law is studied but not the things a lawyer does day to day.
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You're both right and wrong there.

Most law study bears no resemblance to what lawyers actually do, particularly recent graduate lawyers.

But what you've just described lawyers don't do, sounds like pretty standard academic, first year law guff to me. Crap like distinguishing ratio from obiter barely ever comes up in practice.

To an extent the unassisted reading is more practice like, but I wouldn't think unusual for any subject with more of an emphasis on legal research.
 
I have got a pass from topics by just looking at the topic guide and lecture notes. Not going/listening to lectures, or going to tutes.

But there is no way I could get above a pass (i think) without at least reading the cases a bit, or reading some of the textbook.

Can you describe how much you are meant to learn "unassisted" that sounds interesting.
 

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I'd agree with pretty much everything jo said. Standard tasks in early law school.

How'd you end results-wise for your first semester Chief? On a scale from bad to good?
 
Delroy said:
I have got a pass from topics by just looking at the topic guide and lecture notes. Not going/listening to lectures, or going to tutes.
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As I'm spending my own money on this, I wouldn't do that unless absolutely necessary.

Added to that we get a fair whack - 10 to 20% - for tutorial participation to make us show up with the readings and tute problems done and actually participate in discussion of the topic. Case details help a great deal.

Delroy said:
But there is no way I could get above a pass (i think) without at least reading the cases a bit, or reading some of the textbook.
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Delroy said:
Can you describe how much you are meant to learn "unassisted" that sounds interesting.
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Basically we are given a scenario covering about four areas of torts law. We're specifically told not to address any areas covered in either first or second semester. So we're looking at the areas of liability for animals, public nuisance, interference with business interests and so on. We have to find the state of the law, cases, articles etc and apply them to the problem which doesn't 100% fit any existing case or legislation so we have to independently draw analogies and string some concepts from cases together.

It's all showing us how to research, use online tools and the like. I was curious whether other schools did much of this - it sounded like some just cover the law without students having to get into the real details or do much more than study the textbook and case books.

I suppose the average twat-in-a-suit corporate lawyer isn't going to do much other than read and write contracts, agreements or IPO material, so perhaps a lot of people wouldn't use this in their job. I'm finding it interesting so I really don't mind it.
 
Chief said:
As I'm spending my own money on this, I wouldn't do that unless absolutely necessary.

Added to that we get a fair whack - 10 to 20% - for tutorial participation to make us show up with the readings and tute problems done and actually participate in discussion of the topic. Case details help a great deal.





Basically we are given a scenario covering about four areas of torts law. We're specifically told not to address any areas covered in either first or second semester. So we're looking at the areas of liability for animals, public nuisance, interference with business interests and so on. We have to find the state of the law, cases, articles etc and apply them to the problem which doesn't 100% fit any existing case or legislation so we have to independently draw analogies and string some concepts from cases together.

It's all showing us how to research, use online tools and the like. I was curious whether other schools did much of this - it sounded like some just cover the law without students having to get into the real details or do much more than study the textbook and case books.

I suppose the average twat-in-a-suit corporate lawyer isn't going to do much other than read and write contracts, agreements or IPO material, so perhaps a lot of people wouldn't use this in their job. I'm finding it interesting so I really don't mind it.
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Yes sometimes I feel guilty about my slackness considering I pay for the degree, but its a payoff for going out, and having great times. Although I have only ever done what I described in one or two topics. Last year I had a medium credit average.

We have had a number of independent legal research projects, but it was in an area that we had at least a couple of lectures on. In one we had to compare an area of law to another common law jurisdiction (this was in the torts area as well). I did products liability in Canada.

Does anyone wonder about the connection between philosophy and law? I am trying to formulate a decent idea about that for an honors proposal for next year. Because I just find it crazy the amount of concepts law students are spoon fed, without ever considering what they really mean, and how they bias the law. For example subjective/objective tests, reasonable person..
 
j flex roo said:
For the students, what area/s are you looking at getting into?
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I'd like to get into intellectual property law - particularly trademarks and copyright, so all those illegally downloading music and movies - I'm out to get you :p

Since this is my first post in this thread, I thought I'd introduce myself by saying that I'm in my second year of my JD degree at Murdoch University - currently doing Evidence, Equity & Trusts, and Trademarks & Copyright. Hopefully this semester will be much more interesting. Did Property and Admin last semester, and both were extremely boring. Constitutional Law is also among my least favourite subjects I've done so far.
 
Delroy said:
I'm doing intellectual property this semester as well, it would be great be able to defend thepiratebay etc. Protect creativity, don't hinder it :thumbsu:
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Defend Pirate Bay? Sorry, I'd be the one throwing the book at them. I think they got off lightly, considering.
 
Chief said:
It's all showing us how to research, use online tools and the like. I was curious whether other schools did much of this - it sounded like some just cover the law without students having to get into the real details or do much more than study the textbook and case books......

I suppose the average twat-in-a-suit corporate lawyer isn't going to do much other than read and write contracts, agreements or IPO material, so perhaps a lot of people wouldn't use this in their job. I'm finding it interesting so I really don't mind it.
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I think most universities offer an introductory unit teaching legal research/writing skills as a part of their law degree.

However I think it is expected that these skills will be improved by students showing some initiative and getting some work experience in a legal context.

I think you'd have to be a pretty extraordinary student to be getting decent offers (even for clerkships) without any work experience. This is even more important for students coming from less-regarded universities.

If you are interested in less corporate type work as well, I'd recommend trying to get some work experience at a smaller firm that deals with the area of law you're interested in. These sorts of firms are particularly good if you are interested in Family/Criminal Law. Community Legal Centres/Legal Aid are also a good option.

I'm not sure what the articles/PLT requirements are for QLD but PLT providers in VIC have a strong emphasis on practical skills like file management/trust accounting etc which will supplement whatever you've learned at uni.

The best thing to do is to get the best marks that you possibly can, whilst being able to set aside enough time to get some work experience (paid/unpaid) and participate in extracurricular activities.

For the record the school I go to (Deakin) markets itself as having a 'practical emphasis'. A big part of this is several compulsory practical skills units (moot court/mediation/arbitration/witness examination etc) which from my experience have been a joke. There is also a 30 day work experience requirement to graduate.

The work experience requirement has been a positive. Have learned some new skills and been able to make a few contacts. Definitely recommend work experience.
 

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Ellis2WeightsRoom said:
The work experience requirement has been a positive. Have learned some new skills and been able to make a few contacts. Definitely recommend work experience.
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That's the beauty of doing this degree at my age - I know a good half dozen+ people in the biz so though I'm only one semester in I have a good angle on a casual spot at a firm that does IP stuff. Hopefully that will keep me out of trouble.
 
Delroy said:
We have had a number of independent legal research projects, but it was in an area that we had at least a couple of lectures on.
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Lucky bugger. Now I have two on the go - second one covering spam, invasion of privacy and vexatious litigation. Zero lectures on any of it, zero help from lecturers and tutors. They just stand back and watch you belt your head against the full text of legislation, Hansard, cases, journals and the like. Expecting you to demonstrate not only how to solve the problem based on what you found, but all the steps you took to find the info and the relevance of each piece.

****ing tedious, but it is fun watching the tutors desperately trying not to give out any information without making it obvious that they are specifically not mentioning certain things.

All this is where I find it hard to work out how people get through the degree with decent results (D/HD) without reading any cases. :) I've read half a dozen on one of these research assignments alone.
 
You've probably already done this, but what the hell.

When I'm given a research task at my firm on a particular and precise area of law I've never studied, I just find the description in Laws of Australia's online encyclopaedia. Within 30 minutes I can just about answer the question to a simple level, and then it's a matter of refinement and further research obviously..

I don't go straight to cases or legislation as most lecturers would advise because you just end up wasting time looking for the relevant sections.
 
This is a whole research assignment so we go through library catalogue, AGIS, FirstPoint, Legal Online, AustLII and so on. Includes Laws of Australia, Halsbury's, looseleaf services, journals the whole shebang.

THEN we look for legislation, ensure currency, judicial consideration of legislation etc.

THEN we look at case law, judicial consideration etc.

THEN we do an outline answer.

THEN we do an entirely separate assignment for the memo.

Really tedious given the amount of info they want on HOW we got the info (down to individual search strings). No doubt I'll have far more serious business to moan about when I actually work in the industry but right now it is like pulling teeth. :)

Bleh. Be glad when I hand it in on Wednesday.

By the end of it I think I could write a half decent textbook chapter on any one of these areas of law.

Oh and I found a case where a guy I knew of from an old job got fined a few million bucks. HAW HAW
 
Ellis2WeightsRoom said:
The work experience requirement has been a positive. Have learned some new skills and been able to make a few contacts. Definitely recommend work experience.
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I agree. I just had my first day of work experience today, and hope to be able to continue doing more. There is quite a significant difference between learning the theory of law at university and actually working in the legal industry.
 
BomberFletch31 said:
I agree. I just had my first day of work experience today, and hope to be able to continue doing more. There is quite a significant difference between learning the theory of law at university and actually working in the legal industry.
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Heck yes.

Having the 'neck on the chopping block' always makes life interesting (putting it nicely).

I yearn for the Uni days. Working in law is massively overrated.
 
Any thoughts on Criminal Law. Not really enjoying it, and some of this s**t is pretty complicated. Probably already ruled that one out.
 
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