Tertiary and Continuing The Law Thread

[tubbis]

I'm applying for Brisbane clerkships as we speak. Through my experience in speaking with HR Managers @ many top/mid-tier firms (as part of my LSS work), there still exists a slight negative culture towards non-Go8 universities. Much of it has to do with hiring partners and whether they maintain the archaic views of their days.

That said, all hope isn't lost for us non-Go8 law students. Students from my uni successfully gained vacation clerkships in each of the top-tier firms. We're infiltrating the system.

At the end of the day, a good GPA coupled with extra-curriculars will be the best way to get your foot in the door of that potential graduate job.

Also, how did this get turned into a shit-fight about Accounting/Med degrees? :/

 

[cartel]

The thread got turned into a shit-fight when people starting talking about degrees and vocations that they have little idea about (to people that actually do, having completed a med degree and currently working myself).

Has gotten on track now

 

[bullish23]

I'm applying for Brisbane clerkships as we speak. Through my experience in speaking with HR Managers @ many top/mid-tier firms (as part of my LSS work), there still exists a slight negative culture towards non-Go8 /

i can't agree with that. My wife attended QUT, it didn't stop her or her uni mates obtaining jobs in top tier firms upon graduation. Further a lot of them also progressed to magic circle firms in London for their os stint.

 

[daniel_4tw]

In an attempt to get this thread back on track...

Everyone always says law is the new "arts degree". Apparently only 30% of law graduates enter the legal profession... So what I want to know, what other jobs would be perfect for a law graduate that are not in the legal profession?

 

[jo172]

In an attempt to get this thread back on track...

Everyone always says law is the new "arts degree". Apparently only 30% of law graduates enter the legal profession... So what I want to know, what other jobs would be perfect for a law graduate that are not in the legal profession?

A shit load of people double up with Commerce and end up doing purely Accounting/Financial type work.

Apart from that there's a lot who go straight into government/public policy work.

 

[deeman12]

In an attempt to get this thread back on track...

Everyone always says law is the new "arts degree". Apparently only 30% of law graduates enter the legal profession... So what I want to know, what other jobs would be perfect for a law graduate that are not in the legal profession?

I'll probably look for a job in Defence or ideally DFAT. No interest at all in practising law.

 

[Caesar]

I'll probably look for a job in Defence or ideally DFAT. No interest at all in practising law.

Have a backup plan.

 

[deeman12]

Have a backup plan.

Of course. They're the most competitive departments aren't they.

 

[Caesar]

Yes. And I don't think most people realise how many grad positions are offered by those departments compared to the sheer number of applicants. Four out of every five law students at ANU wants to work for DFAT.

 

[checkraiseulite]

90% of female law students I know want to work at DFAT.

ASIO and the ACCC seem quite interesting in terms of government departments.

 

[jonoman89]

Any bureaucratic position sounds pretty nice to me... would prefer to practise for a bit first though.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Anyone want to comment on College of Law/Leo Cussens?

I'm contemplating doing one of these programs next year as I think I'll regret not getting admitted after 5 years of uni.

I'm still completely undecided what I want to do career wise, but would like to have all my options open to me later on down the track.

 

[jo172]

Anyone want to comment on College of Law/Leo Cussens?

I'm contemplating doing one of these programs next year as I think I'll regret not getting admitted after 5 years of uni.

I'm still completely undecided what I want to do career wise, but would like to have all my options open to me later on down the track.

Maintaining a practising certificate while not practising is a bitch though. Like it's worth doing the requirements to get admitted, but actually going through with the ceremony when you don't intend to start practising is a tad silly.

 

[Caesar]

Maintaining a practising certificate while not practising is a bitch though. Like it's worth doing the requirements to get admitted, but actually going through with the ceremony when you don't intend to start practising is a tad silly.

Yeah, this. The CPD is heavy, and even if you keep up with the requirements you're still going to be an awfully long way behind the 8-ball if you ever go back to practice. Getting your certificate and then not using it is a massive waste.

Make your career decision before you spend a ton of time and money getting admitted.

 

[DTRAIN87]

Yeah, this. The CPD is heavy, and even if you keep up with the requirements you're still going to be an awfully long way behind the 8-ball if you ever go back to practice. Getting your certificate and then not using it is a massive waste.

Make your career decision before you spend a ton of time and money getting admitted.

Good advice. Our lecturer regrets this cojsidering he was going to academia from the start. He worked for two years tried a career and hated it so took the uni job with his 87 average or what ever ridiculous score he averaged.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Are you able to expand on these CPD requirements?

Suppose I get admitted next year and want to practice 5 years from now and do not maintain a practicing certificate in the interim, what do I have to do in order to practice?

I've had a brief look on the LIV website but it's hard to find the right information.

My thinking is it's better to take ~6 months and do the COL/LC now whilst expenses are relatively low and commitments are few?

 

[Caesar]

I don't know what the requirements are in Victoria, but generally after being admitted you have to complete Xhrs of CPD each year in order to maintain your practicing certificate. If you don't then you lose it and have to apply to be readmitted, which involves a whole lot of work.

I believe some jurisdictions won't even let you maintain a certificate if you're not actively practicing. Even if you do your CPD its arguable that if you're not working in the field you're not really plugged into the current legal environment enough to go back to practice effectively.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Contemplating making a new thread but thought i'd just post here instead.

Anyone a member of this 'Golden Key Society' or whatever?

My resume in terms of societies, scholarships, professional memberships, academic awards etc is pretty bleak, so I'm considering joining this to use as filler on my resume in the future when I'm looking for a job.

(A) Is it worth it?
(B) Will I e perceived as a self-important tosser for joining and including it on my resume?
(C) Should I just not join and put this (or other clubs/societies that I haven't necessarily been a member of) on my resume anyway?

I can't see myself in the near future attending any of the functions or networking events or anything. I am also aware of the whole idea of this particular society itself being a load of wank so I don't necessarily need to hear about it (I know I'm not special etc etc).

 

[Caesar]

It's pretty big in America. I'd never heard of it over here until I talked to someone from Monash. Sounds like an even more transparent wankfest than Junior Chambers of Commerce, tbh.

Can't you just join the LSA and stand for the executive committee? That's what I did. Pick a position nobody wants... Treasurer is good, batshit boring and sounds responsible. Write a few cheques, keep hold of the receipts, attend meetings and get free tickets to all the pissups. Easy done.

 

[checkraiseulite]

The Law Society at my university is very cliquey and competitive, and generally the lower ranked members of the society in previous years become the higher ranked members in future years. Very few (if any) positions are uncontested.

To be honest I have no real interest/desire to do it and I think me showing up after 5 years of study and wanting to get the second to job on the LSA would be very transparent and not recieved well at all.

It's also too late as this is my final year and the positions as far as I know for this year have been filled.

 

[Caesar]

Mmmm fair points. I was a bit spoiled in that respect because I worked as an accountant most of my way through uni, on which strength I got onto quite a few boards as Treasurer without having to do much politicking.

Final year is tough to start adding extra curriculars. What value does Golden Key actually give your resume? I don't know what law firms look for but personally I don't really care about a list of a grad's memberships of societies. I'm interested in the stuff with meat - not so much what they've done, but what experience its provided them with.

When I was at uni I made a point of joining the Bar Association and Law Society. It cost a bit, but they offer discount rates for students. I attended a few lectures on topics I was interested in. That gave me something to chat about with interviewers and showed them that I was serious about legal practice.

Perhaps that's something worth pursuing? It always surprises me how few students bother joining the professional societies they will be part of when they graduate. Especially law students, who are virtually obsessed with networking.

 

[checkraiseulite]

I don't think it adds any value at all, besides confirming I'm in the top X% of my cohort which is probably already reflected in my grades.

I've got a pretty good level of professional experience, I just tend to struggle when firms try to hone in on the community/university involvement aspect. I view this as complete bullshit personally.

I've always been a very lazy and unmotivated person blessed with a pretty good ability to grasp concepts quicky and get good results relative to effort. I guess I could join the LIV/CA whatever but I know I'd never go to any events either and I would (cynically) assume that interviewers would perceive this as resume filler similar to Golden Key.

I guess I'd much prefer jobs to be awarded on academic/professional merit rather than vague notions of community involvement etc. Once I get into an interview situation I have no doubt I'll be able to converse with the actual lawyers/bankers/accountants on technical or professional issues as well as non-structured social chat.

It's getting past the HR gatekeepers with their community & university life involvement/volunteering/overcoming personal adversity etc questions that I envisage I'll struggle with.

 

[Caesar]

The reality is that it counts, and not just with HR people. Intelligent, academically successful grads who perform well in interviews and can smalltalk about golf/football/whatever are a dime a dozen.

Things like being able to relate to people from a wide variety of backgrounds, having a healthy balance of interests, a sense of social/ethical responsibility, and generally being a well-rounded person count more than you think. Extracurricular activities demonstrate that you have those things. They may not be the most important things involved with a job, but when you have a bunch of applicants who tick all the important boxes then they are pretty crucial tiebreakers.

Why? Because at the end of the day, most work isn't rocket science. After a certain point, intelligence stops being a meaningful separator between people in most jobs. Honestly, in most cases I'd prefer a grad with slightly poorer academic results but the initiative and commitment to get involved outside university. The key part of extracurricular is 'extra'. As you yourself admit, it's the lazy/unmotivated people who aren't interested in getting involved in stuff they don't have to.

I don't care if someone is brilliant, if they're lazy and unmotivated I don't want them working with me. Grads (well, 90% of us in the workforce really) do some pretty menial work at times and lazy intelligent people tend to regard that stuff as beneath them and not put in the hard yards.

I've never seen anyone fired/overlooked for promotion for not being smart enough to do a job, because it's rare anyone hires someone and then later finds out they're substantially less intelligent than they thought. I've seen a lot of people fired/passed over for promotion because they were too lazy to do a job they were capable of properly. So it makes sense to hire people who you think are going to be driven, well-balanced and have the right attitude.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Colour me cynical but >75% of the people I know doing community volunteering or whatever are doing it with ulterior motives. I have extracurriculars but they just aren't really in the volunteering/community realm or connected to university in any meaningful way.

I don't believe the firms themselves are as concerned with community engagement/development as they hold themselves out to be either.

Just a massive wankfest imo.

 

[Caesar]

Colour me cynical but >75% of the people I know doing community volunteering or whatever are doing it with ulterior motives. I have extracurriculars but they just aren't really in the volunteering/community realm or connected to university in any meaningful way.

Of course everyone has ulterior motives for doing it. But, the fact they're doing it at all shows that they're self-motivated. And just because their motives are self-serving doesn't mean they don't learn anything from it. I did a summer with the Aurora Project purely because I wanted to pad out my resume, but it certainly taught me a lot in spite of that.

I don't believe the firms themselves are as concerned with community engagement/development as they hold themselves out to be either.

Just a massive wankfest imo.

Well, yes and no. They're not concerned about community engagement/development because they want to look good and employ ethical, community-minded people. They're concerned with it because of what it teaches people.

e.g. if I see someone coming for a grad role who has volunteered at an aboriginal legal centre I'm not going to employ them because they're such a fine upstanding moral citizen. But I might employ them because it shows they're motivated, they don't shy away from unglamourous work, and they have experience dealing with people from very different spheres of society - all good qualities in an employee.

I can't speak for professional firms, merely for myself as a fairly junior supervisor in a commercial role who has some involvement in recruiting grads.