The on topic thread

[jd2010]

But was the talent even there to begin with? Its hard to tell if it really was given we never saw it. Also Redkmapp is renowned for not giving youth a go anywhere, just look at his record at QPR and Portsmouth, so I'm not sure he's a great example to bring up. My personal opinion is that the players who come through the youth academies just aren't up to standard, and that's the real source of the problem.

Increasing the home-grown player quota will marginally improve the quality of players being brought through (as some more get first-team opportunities), but I think its addressing the wrong end of the issue.

I'd say being captain of national under age sides shows the talent was there. It was just never given a chance alongside the best players in the first team. Not every player who gets given a taste will take his chance like Kane has. But is sure as hell beats the other possibility which would have seen him sold to a Millwall as he would have under AVB or Harry

 

[jd2010]

GERMANY:
GK 1 Manuel Neuer
RB 2 Andreas Beck
CB 4 Benedikt Höwedes
CB 5 Jérôme Boateng
LB 3 Sebastian Boenisch

65'
DM 15 Mats Hummels

83'
RM 14 Fabian Johnson

69'
CM 20 Gonzalo Castro
CM 8 Sami Khedira (c)
LM 10 Mesut Özil

89'
CF 13 Sandro Wagner


ENGLAND:
GK 22 Scott Loach
RB 2 Martin Cranie

79'
CB 17 Micah Richards
CB 6 Nedum Onuoha

46'
LB 19 Kieran Gibbs
DM 12 Fabrice Muamba

78'
CM 4 Lee Cattermole
CM 10 Mark Noble (c)
RW 7 James Milner
LW 11 Adam Johnson
CF 14 Theo Walcott

That was 5 years ago in the Euro final. There's been a failure somewhere between then and now with only 2 out of 11 going on to be regulars for the senior side to Germany's 6 out of 11.

 

[jd2010]

"In 2010 England Under 17s won the European Championship, beating Spain in the final. Of that 18-man match-day squad, only four have gone on to play more than 20 top-flight games, while double that from the Spanish squad have done so in La Liga."

 

[moomba]

At the end of the day the FA don't give a stuff about the quality of the league. And nor should they.

And the clubs shouldnt feel obliged to accept the new rules.

 

[jd2010]

And the clubs shouldnt feel obliged to accept the new rules.

It's the FA who make the rules that have to be followed in the country. If the likes of Bayern, Real, Barca & PSG could all pass these regulations that the FA want to pass through why should small fish like English clubs kick up a stink?

Lets look at it for what it is. The players that would be at risk for making the league weaker are the likes of Bryan Ovideo, Ryo Miyaichi, Roger Espinoza, Brek Shea, Mame Biram Diouf and Geoff Cameron! Are they really much of a loss?

 

[Zidane98]

It's the FA who make the rules that have to be followed in the country. If the likes of Bayern, Real, Barca & PSG could all pass these regulations that the FA want to pass through why should small fish like English clubs kick up a stink?

Lets look at it for what it is. The players that would be at risk for making the league weaker are the likes of Bryan Ovideo, Ryo Miyaichi, Roger Espinoza, Brek Shea, Mame Biram Diouf and Geoff Cameron! Are they really much of a loss?

Miyaichi is a jet.

 

[Latro]

Miyaichi is a jet.

He is in the reserves in the Dutch league.

 

[moomba]

"In 2010 England Under 17s won the European Championship, beating Spain in the final. Of that 18-man match-day squad, only four have gone on to play more than 20 top-flight games, while double that from the Spanish squad have done so in La Liga."

Technical ability vs physical ability.

You could also make an argument that English players can stand still when the big money and fame comes in.

 

[moomba]

It's the FA who make the rules that have to be followed in the country. If the likes of Bayern, Real, Barca & PSG could all pass these regulations that the FA want to pass through why should small fish like English clubs kick up a stink?

Lets look at it for what it is. The players that would be at risk for making the league weaker are the likes of Bryan Ovideo, Ryo Miyaichi, Roger Espinoza, Brek Shea, Mame Biram Diouf and Geoff Cameron! Are they really much of a loss?

The clubs have to approve it.

 

[jd2010]

The fact that only Ross Barkley from the Under 17 Euro winning side against Spain has kicked on to the national side compared to Jese & Paco Alcacer. There's so many of their U17 squad at least playing top flight football now like Sergi Darder, Deulofeu, Bernat, Campana etc. While the likes of Connor Coady, McEcheran, Thorne, Afeobe have all had to drop a division.

I'm not saying they have to be given a chance at their first club. But surely these U17 European champions have enough talent to get into a squad somewhere in the top flight if half the side they beat in the final is able to!

 

[jd2010]

Technical ability vs physical ability.

yet the UEFA techincal squad selection for the tournament has 8 (Butland, Garbutt, Wisdom, Barkley, Coady, McEacheran, Wickham, Afeobe) English players out of the 23, compared to 6 from Spain and 4 (including Pogba) from France.

 

[moomba]

Maybe they're not good enough.

 

[jd2010]

Of those 8 only 2-3 have had a look in at top flight clubs. Not sure why they stay at bigger clubs (greed or lack of opportunity to go) but there's definitely been a lot of English talent like McEacheran who are meant to be the next big thing not get a look and go to waste

 

[Redalert]

Lets look at it for what it is. The players that would be at risk for making the league weaker are the likes of Bryan Ovideo, Ryo Miyaichi, Roger Espinoza, Brek Shea, Mame Biram Diouf and Geoff Cameron! Are they really much of a loss?

I notice that they mostly come from mid-table clubs, rather than the top tier of English football. Mightn't this widen the gap between the big clubs (who are able to purchase top tier players capable of securing work permits) and the rest?

 

[moomba]

Come on, you've seen some of these play. The average England kid isnt a patch on your average continental kid technically.

Pace and power, its what English youth development is all about. Barkley and Wilshere are one of very few that come through the system able to match it technically.

 

[jd2010]

I notice that they mostly come from mid-table clubs, rather than the top tier of English football. Mightn't this widen the gap between the big clubs (who are able to purchase top tier players capable of securing work permits) and the rest?

The gap between the top 6 and the rest is already big enough. Encouraging sides outside the 6 and even those big 6 to bring through UK talent isn't going to harm them. Just look at Southampton. Sold off their HG talent for good money added some quality foreign talent and they've actually improved.

The national team wins for having a side give them a chance. The players win by improving by playing top flight football. The original club wins financially and on the pitch too!

 

[Latro]

Afobe has had a lot of injuries.

 

[jd2010]

Come on, you've seen some of these play. The average England kid isnt a patch on your average continental kid technically.

Pace and power, its what English youth development is all about. Barkley and Wilshere are one of very few that come through the system able to match it technically.

Josh McEacheran & Wickham were hands down the best players of that side. Wickham probably due to size. But McEacheran due to talent. Talent that has never been given a proper chance in the top flight. And probably never will. Afeobe is the leading scorer in English football this season at Wolves. Surely he would be of more use in a squad than that hack American Sunderland got in no?

 

[moomba]

Of those 8 only 2-3 have had a look in at top flight clubs. Not sure why they stay at bigger clubs (greed or lack of opportunity to go) but there's definitely been a lot of English talent like McEacheran who are meant to be the next big thing not get a look and go to waste

McEachran has been tried at a lower level and hasnt been good enough.

 

[jd2010]

McEachran has been tried at a lower level and hasnt been good enough.

Ryan Mason failed in League One last season!

 

[moomba]

Ryan Mason failed in League One last season!

Is Mason that good now?

Is someone like that really what these rules are all about?

 

[jd2010]

Is Mason that good now?

Is someone like that really what these rules are all about?

He has gone from League One battler to consistent starter for a top 6 club and now into an England squad. Surely with the talent McEacheran and Bostock have/had they should have been well ahead of him at this time. The rules are about giving English youth a chance rather than just getting in plodders like Altidore, Paulinho & the like just because they're flashy Johnny Foreigners

 

[Shoei]

Terrible rule.

Talented English prospects from the academies will always push their way into the first team squads, if not at their club they'll do it somewhere else.

The National team fails because the English FA appoint Idiots to the role whom continue to pick the same players or when they actually made a decent foreign appointment the Xenophobic English media bashes them 24/7 to breaking point.

GERMANY:
GK 1 Manuel Neuer
RB 2 Andreas Beck
CB 4 Benedikt Höwedes
CB 5 Jérôme Boateng
LB 3 Sebastian Boenisch

65'
DM 15 Mats Hummels

83'
RM 14 Fabian Johnson

69'
CM 20 Gonzalo Castro
CM 8 Sami Khedira (c)
LM 10 Mesut Özil

89'
CF 13 Sandro Wagner


ENGLAND:
GK 22 Scott Loach
RB 2 Martin Cranie

79'
CB 17 Micah Richards
CB 6 Nedum Onuoha

46'
LB 19 Kieran Gibbs
DM 12 Fabrice Muamba

78'
CM 4 Lee Cattermole
CM 10 Mark Noble (c)
RW 7 James Milner
LW 11 Adam Johnson
CF 14 Theo Walcott

That was 5 years ago in the Euro final. There's been a failure somewhere between then and now with only 2 out of 11 going on to be regulars for the senior side to Germany's 6 out of 11.

Could it be that some of them just aren't good enough?

Never heard of Scott Loach.

Martin Cranie was a youth prodigy but was found out when he got older against professionals.

Kieran Gibbs has been fighting for the starting role at Arsenal all season and would probably have had it if he wasn't injured.

Fabrice Muamba couldn't break into an Arsenal side that included Gilberto Silva, Song, Hleb, Pires, Ljungberg, Fabregas and Diaby (before he was permabroken) He was playing regularly for Birmingham until his accident.

Mark Noble has been a solid but unspectacular player for West Ham. Same with Lee Cattlemole. Both are very bland so so midfielders.

James Milner, Adam Johnson and Micah Richards are probably the most unlucky - I don't think they made the right career choice going to a City team where they were never really going to be starting every game.

Nedum Onuoha was always injured from memory and couldn't break into the City first team.


England is full of young players that "could have been" but for their own failures - Pennant and Bently spring to mind

I think the current generation of England players is looking much better - Butland, Clyne, Shaw, Oxlaide-Chamberlin, Wilshere, Stone, Gibbs, Chambers, Barkley, Sterling, Sturridge, Berahino, Kane, Mason, Ward-prowse, Dier, Will Huges, Danny Ings, Luke Garbutt, Zaha etc etc etc and these are only the players I know of, I bet most of the other poster could name 3-4 players from their Academies that will be pushing for their senior squads

 

[jd2010]

I think the current generation of England players is looking much better - Butland, Clyne, Shaw, Oxlaide-Chamberlin, Wilshere, Stone, Gibbs, Chambers, Barkley, Sterling, Sturridge, Berahino, Kane, Mason, Ward-prowse, Dier, Will Huges, Danny Ings, Luke Garbutt, Zaha

The good thing about this next batch is that so many of them are at clubs willing to give them a go like us, Southampton, Arsenal & Liverpool. The previous lot fell into the traps of City & Chelsea and you end up with wastes of careers like Scott Sinclair & McEacheran.

 

[moomba]

Whats wrong with English youth getting a chance because they've earned it?

This would set the game back years if it ever got up.

At City we'd buy up the best English youth if this came through. They'd sit on our bench rather than play week in week out for their club, albeit at a lower level.

And while you can name bad foreign players you can just as easily name good ones that have enhanced the league that might not get a chance if the rules are changed.