The on topic thread

[Magma]

milner has played a heap of games and made the majority of his england appearances since moving. arguably the best thing he did in his career.
doesn't matter where johnson went, attitude has always been piss poor and lazy.
micah's body is made of glass. simple as that. he's still not able to get himself regularly fit at fiorentina

 

[jd2010]

Whats wrong with English youth getting a chance because they've earned it?

This would set the game back years if it ever got up.

At City we'd buy up the best English youth if this came through. They'd sit on our bench rather than play week in week out for their club, albeit at a lower level.

And while you can name bad foreign players you can just as easily name good ones that have enhanced the league that might not get a chance if the rules are changed.

Like I said if Bayern & Barca can pass the rules why can't Stoke & Manchester City?

 

[moomba]

One other thing we need to look at is the new academy rules have only just come into being.

More resources, more coaches, more time training.

Why don't we wait and see if that produces a better quality of English player capable of breaking through at club and international level.

 

[moomba]

Like I said if Bayern & Barca can pass the rules why can't Stoke & Manchester City?

Bayern and Barca produce a better quality of player.

They have youth players break through into their teams because they are good enough, not because they are forced to.

City cant do it because our best english academy prospects are in the 14/15 years range. We have Barker who will break through soon hopefully, and Lopes, Angelino, Pozo, Ambrose and Denayer who probably wouldnt get an opportunity under the new rules.

And I'm speaking as someone that wants my club to cull its squad to provide more opportunity for academy players. Even if it costs us the odd win or two.

 

[jd2010]

The rule isn't an overnight fix. But things can improve quickly just as it did with the German reforms in 2000

 

[jd2010]

Bayern and Barca produce a better quality of player.

They have youth players break through into their teams because they are good enough, not because they are forced to.

If Espanyol, Werder Bremen, Sevilla, Club Brugges or so many of the other club still in Europe pass why not the English?

 

[moomba]

If Espanyol, Werder Bremen, Sevilla, Club Brugges or so many of the other club still in Europe pass why not the English?

Because England (in general) produce shit footballers.

Pace, power, technical ability is an afterthought.

English players also tend be not be as professional as foreign players (big generalisation I know). How many get their first big contract and drown in a see of cheap piss, fast cars and slags?

 

[moomba]

Heres an exercise for you jd. Bring in these rules and we'll probably cut loose Demichelis and Boyata from our central defence.

Denayer is our next defender coming through but wouldnt get a foreign player spot. Rekik next who misses out for the same reason. No English players in the academy remotely close to senior football let alone top level premier league.

So we buy two English players to back up Kompany and Mangala.

Which two?
And is sitting on our bench a good development opportunity for them?

 

[jd2010]

English players also tend be not be as professional as foreign players (big generalisation I know). How many get their first big contract and drown in a see of cheap piss, fast cars and slags?

The fact that they can do that without even making matchday squads which is quite often the case is a big problem I agree. Surely playing week in week out would help reduce the lazy money hungry types like the Scott Sinclair's but it wont fix the problem as idiots will always be idiots and not be professional (Bentley, Michael Johnson etc.)

The German model is clearly the way to go. Force big investment in academies for the top 2 divisions or they won't get licences. Encourage HG rules in squads, which won't be a problem if everyone is putting the money required into the academy. Germany were in a disarray in 2000 and in just 6 years they made the WC semi with the best young player in the tournament, and then did the same thing 4 years later. Strict rules at first but the rewards outweigh the initial backlash IMO

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Imo, the problem is at grassroots level. I grew up in England and there was very little technical coaching whatsoever. that seems to be the difference. Look at the dutch setup for instance. They constantly produce very smart and tactically proficient footballers. LVG Made comments on this in the preseason. A simple change he made at carrington was changing the training and academy pitches to a semi synthetic surface so the players could train on even pitches all year round. In holland, all the youth pitches are synthetic.

The dutch and spanish academies play 6 a side games with a futsal ball for instance, developing their skills and they don't pigeon hole the players into positions early which allows the kids to have a far more rounded game.

As moomba and shoei mentioned, the players need to be of a good enough standard for the proposed changes to not be disastrous. Get things sorted at grass roots level and this won't be a discussion as the english players will be good enough.

 

[jd2010]

Heres an exercise for you jd. Bring in these rules and we'll probably cut loose Demichelis and Boyata from our central defence.

Denayer is our next defender coming through but wouldnt get a foreign player spot. Rekik next who misses out for the same reason. No English players in the academy remotely close to senior football let alone top level premier league.

So we buy two English players to back up Kompany and Mangala.

Which two?
And is sitting on our bench a good development opportunity for them?

Well considering you'd only have 2 CB's and are in 4 competitions they wouldn't just be sitting on the bench. You'd probably look at young English guys like Lascalles or Joe Gomez from the Championship. They'd get at least 15 appearances in the first team each roughly (26 starts & 8 for Demi & Boyata in all comps to get split)

 

[moomba]

No chance we'd go with two unproven players. We'd be looking at someone like Caulker for the main backup, and maybe a kid for emergencies. So Caulker goes from playing week in week out to every two or three weeks. And the kid goes from plenty of games in the championship to the odd one here or there for us.

 

[jd2010]

Put it this way. With all the money in the PL and the parachute payments, why shouldn't the FA bring in rules like long-term HG players in match day squads, short-term forced spend on academies? If Hull or Burnley were told they had to spend X amount to be given a licence to play in the top flight that was somewhat matched by the FA why wouldn't they?

In the short-term with all the money there is the FA can bring in a forced spend on academies without sides having to do a cull as moomba states. In the longer term (5 or so years) the benefits will start to shine through and then they can enforce all sides having to have increased HG talent.

 

[Shoei]

But then you are giving average players starts for no other reason than the fact they are English and you have to.

National Quotas are like import tariffs for the car building industry. You don't make anything better because you guarantee English players will be needed regardless of their abilities. The English players will have no reason to get better because competition for their places is limited

 

[jd2010]

We'd be looking at someone like Caulker for the main backup

A defender that has been relegated 2 seasons running over 2 highly rated players in the division down? Like I said they can't bring in a rule starting 15/16. But the long term goal of the FA should be to have all clubs having to meet matchday quotas of HG or at least Non-EU players

 

[jd2010]

But then you are giving average players starts for no other reason than the fact they are English and you have to.

The two I mentioned are young and who knows if they are average yet as they don't play top flight football against the best players in the world. The equivalent German talent is probably starting week in week out at Mainz or Hertha Berlin

 

[jd2010]

Of the current Euro U17 England championship side more than just 1 player can push on to the senior side in the next 5 years. Problem is of the 3 best players in that side only Josh Onamah from us will get a look in next season or 2 playing any sort of senior games. Both Solanke & Isaiah Brown at Chelsea will sit in the reserves for a couple of seasons before getting Championship loans and more than likely being the next McEacheran. I'm sure if Hull or Sunderland were forced to have more HG players in their squad they'd be more likely to take a punt on a kid like Solanke or even Bamford than getting in a bog average import.

 

[moomba]

Remember a lot of Spanish players mentioned get their experience in the lower leagues with B teams.

The opposite would happen here. Players taken from lower leagues where they play regularly to fill out premier league squads.

 

[moomba]

A defender that has been relegated 2 seasons running over 2 highly rated players in the division down? Like I said they can't bring in a rule starting 15/16. But the long term goal of the FA should be to have all clubs having to meet matchday quotas of HG or at least Non-EU players

No chance at all we would not have an experienced backup. One long term injury and we're not going to rely on a kid to perform week in week out in a title race.

 

[jd2010]

Remember a lot of Spanish players mentioned get their experience in the lower leagues with B teams.

The opposite would happen here. Players taken from lower leagues where they play regularly to fill out premier league squads.

Don't get me started with the B team debate

The English love talking about their failures and wanting to fix things but refuse to forgo history and moving forward

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Of the current Euro U17 England championship side more than just 1 player can push on to the senior side in the next 5 years. Problem is of the 3 best players in that side only Josh Onamah from us will get a look in next season or 2 playing any sort of senior games. Both Solanke & Isaiah Brown at Chelsea will sit in the reserves for a couple of seasons before getting Championship loans and more than likely being the next McEacheran. I'm sure if Hull or Sunderland were forced to have more HG players in their squad they'd be more likely to take a punt on a kid like Solanke or even Bamford than getting in a bog average import.

Tbf mate, those rep squads don't tell the full story. Plenty of players outside of the rep teams do better than the representative players over the course of their career.

 

[jd2010]

Tbf mate, those rep squads don't tell the full story. Plenty of players outside of the rep teams do better than the representative players over the course of their career.

That German side that won the U20's kicked on quite well for a rep squad?

 

[Bojan KantKick]

That German side that won the U20's kicked on quite well for a rep squad?

Correct. I'm saying that they're some very good footballers that didn't get selected in youth rep teams

 

[jd2010]

Correct. I'm saying that they're some very good footballers that didn't get selected in youth rep teams

No doubt there is. But you'd want more than a 1 in 23 conversion from the U17 squad of 5 years ago which is what the English currently have. Albeit an unwarranted 1 too IMO

 

[moomba]

No doubt there is. But you'd want more than a 1 in 23 conversion from the U17 squad of 5 years ago which is what the English currently have. Albeit an unwarranted 1 too IMO

I'm not sure what the point is. Only 1 might have made it, but in his place was another English player developed through the English system.