Analysis The St Kilda rebuild and other problems

[austinnn]

Come on everybody
Love one another
We're all brothers and sisters
Let's unite and bury our grievances
And ignore the stupidity of others as you would hope others forgive yours
For at the end of the day we are all Saints
And all sad enough to spend too much of our time on a fan forum talking shit about a sporting club
P E A C E

 

[plugger66]

am I right in assuming because I have bigfart and plugger on ignore Im not being exposed to the full melt? doesnt seem too bad

Maybe you shouldn't have me on ignore and then would realise I never melt. Just try it. And I know you can't read this but I have sent it to you via carrier pidgeon


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bird_man]

am I right in assuming because I have bigfart and plugger on ignore Im not being exposed to the full melt? doesnt seem too bad

Not at all, Plugger is the least meltiest of melters and Big Mart is MIA

 

[TheLonieRanger]

Not at all, Plugger is the least meltiest of melters and Big Mart is MIA

right, well I reckon the melt is reasonable so far.. few outliers but that's always the case. I think we should have a thread dedicated to 'the state of the melt' with a little meter on the side that ranges from frozen to puddle. It WAS a pretty insipid performance on the weekend, and it's bound to draw out some strong opinions. If we don't show up tomorrow this place is going to puddle

 

[bird_man]

Talk about Richo's job being under pressure is laughable.

People need to go and have another look at the 2014 season to realise how far we have come under Richo in the 18 months.

4 wins for the year and a percentage of 60 for ****s sake (one of those wins were against Freos reserve grade side). Games like the ones against the Crows and Eagles were a regular thing. The poor bastard inherited the worst list in the AFL, he's had to build a side out of 3 years of kids and the rest made up of not great draft picks, DFA's and a shit load of rookie elevations.

We have not lost a game this year against a side we were expected to beat. We have beaten every side below and every side we've played that are around us. Not only that we have pushed two of the very best sides in the comp to a point that we were very unlucky to lose.

What a joke!

 

[blktreacle]

Talk about Richo's job being under pressure is laughable.

People need to go and have another look at the 2014 season to realise how far we have come under Richo in the 18 months.

4 wins for the year and a percentage of 60 for ****s sake (one of those wins were against Freos reserve grade side). Games like the ones against the Crows and Eagles were a regular thing. The poor bastard inherited the worst list in the AFL, he's had to build a side out of 3 years of kids and the rest made up of not great draft picks, DFA's and a shit load of rookie elevations.

We have not lost a game this year against a side we were expected to beat. We have beaten every side below and every side we've played that are around us. Not only that we have pushed two of the very best sides in the comp to a point that we were very unlucky to lose.

What a joke!

Exactly big blowouts against in form sides, particularly with the travel as well, in West Coast and Adelaide, were always going to happen this year. next year we will still lose those games just by about 5 goals instead. when we start winning those games we will be playing deep into the finals which is still at the earliest going to be 2018

 

[#1_pigeonracer]

Maybe you shouldn't have me on ignore and then would realise I never melt. Just try it. And I know you can't read this but I have sent it to you via carrier pidgeon


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's 'pigeon'..please no D plugger.
#PigeonsMatter

 

[STK2020]

I think when your a coach of a rebuilding club its easy to get distracted by win / loss ratio , what i really run my eye over is ....
1 How many players have break out years .
2 1st year player development
3 Even spread of senior games to the kids .
4 Game style and if its been embraced.
5 effort of playing group
If its possible to measure all that , we will have questions answered .

 

[Plumber66]

A

Then dont read it, instead of dictating to everyone what they should be doing. Its condescending and rude

Has been suggested, start a thread for that kind of stuff.

Simples.

 

[Diehard Saint]

We also won a few early games last year & then faded away. My point is have we really improved or at least enough since last year? That's my concern.

I'm happy with Geary as captain.

Which is really why it's too early to judge this season yet...especially with a so called " easier" draw in the second half. We are half way there with two big losses from two top teams, yet probably two more wins than we expected.
Got to hold fire till the end of the season I think.
Breathe, everyone...it's too soon to panic!

 

[Defacto]

looking at this dogs side out there, i thought that they had made just about every pick a winner, so i thought if i looked at their drafting/trading compared to ours i would see them surpassing us. but it didnt really look like that at all. we seemed to have done better as a whole but the dogs seemed to have picked up absolutely elite talent with a couple of high end selections, whilst we havent yet really had that output. i think we need to do something similar in the next couple of drafts. need an absolutely WOW selection to happen

here is the quick summary:
2011
Clay Smith Vs Seb Ross
Michael Talia Vs Markworth/Newnes
Daniel Pearce vs Jimmy Webster
Tory Dickson vs Jay Lever
Fletcher Roberts vs Maister
Jong vs Dunell
Tom Campbell vs Cam Shenton
Alex Greenwood vs Jordan Staley
Jack Redpath/Mark Austin vs Minchington

2012
Nick Lower vs Dylan Roberton
Koby Stevens vs Tom Lee
Tom Young vs Tom Hickey/Trent Dennis-Lane
Stringer/McCrae/Hrovat vs Nathan Wright/Spencer White
Lachie Hunter/Josh Prudden/Brett Goodes vs Brodie Murdoch/Josh Saunders/Lewis Pierce

2013
Stuart Crameri vs Shane Savage/Luke Delaney
Sam Darley vs Billy Longer/Josh Bruce
Bontempelli vs Billings
Fuller/Honeychurch vs Dunstan/Acres/Templeton/Weller/Holmes

2014
Hamling vs Membrey
Tom Boyd/Biggs vs McCartin
McLean/Webb vs Goddard/McKenzie
Hamilton/Dale/Caleb Daniel/Cordy vs Lonie
Roarke Smith vs Sinclair
Kelly vs Saad
Daniel Pearce vs Payne
Goodes vs Schneider

2015
Suckling vs Freeman/Carlisle
Dunkley/Collins vs Gresham
Adams vs White
Williams vs Rice
Lynch vs Okearney
Goetz vs Coughlan
Adcock vs Saunders

 

[Luke_sainters]

looking at this dogs side out there, i thought that they had made just about every pick a winner, so i thought if i looked at their drafting/trading compared to ours i would see them surpassing us. but it didnt really look like that at all. we seemed to have done better as a whole but the dogs seemed to have picked up absolutely elite talent with a couple of high end selections, whilst we havent yet really had that output. i think we need to do something similar in the next couple of drafts. need an absolutely WOW selection to happen

here is the quick summary:
2011
Clay Smith Vs Seb Ross
Michael Talia Vs Markworth/Newnes
Daniel Pearce vs Jimmy Webster
Tory Dickson vs Jay Lever
Fletcher Roberts vs Maister
Jong vs Dunell
Tom Campbell vs Cam Shenton
Alex Greenwood vs Jordan Staley
Jack Redpath/Mark Austin vs Minchington

2012
Nick Lower vs Dylan Roberton
Koby Stevens vs Tom Lee
Tom Young vs Tom Hickey/Trent Dennis-Lane
Stringer/McCrae/Hrovat vs Nathan Wright/Spencer White
Lachie Hunter/Josh Prudden/Brett Goodes vs Brodie Murdoch/Josh Saunders/Lewis Pierce

2013
Stuart Crameri vs Shane Savage/Luke Delaney
Sam Darley vs Billy Longer/Josh Bruce
Bontempelli vs Billings
Fuller/Honeychurch vs Dunstan/Acres/Templeton/Weller/Holmes

2014
Hamling vs Membrey
Tom Boyd/Biggs vs McCartin
McLean/Webb vs Goddard/McKenzie
Hamilton/Dale/Caleb Daniel/Cordy vs Lonie
Roarke Smith vs Sinclair
Kelly vs Saad
Daniel Pearce vs Payne
Goodes vs Schneider

2015
Suckling vs Freeman/Carlisle
Dunkley/Collins vs Gresham
Adams vs White
Williams vs Rice
Lynch vs Okearney
Goetz vs Coughlan
Adcock vs Saunders

Dogs have obviously selected really well, but it also helps when you have three F/S picks who are superstars in Wallis, Libertore and Hunter take those three away and the dogs don't look so strong in the middle.

 

[STK2020]

looking at this dogs side out there, i thought that they had made just about every pick a winner, so i thought if i looked at their drafting/trading compared to ours i would see them surpassing us. but it didnt really look like that at all. we seemed to have done better as a whole but the dogs seemed to have picked up absolutely elite talent with a couple of high end selections, whilst we havent yet really had that output. i think we need to do something similar in the next couple of drafts. need an absolutely WOW selection to happen

here is the quick summary:
2011
Clay Smith Vs Seb Ross
Michael Talia Vs Markworth/Newnes
Daniel Pearce vs Jimmy Webster
Tory Dickson vs Jay Lever
Fletcher Roberts vs Maister
Jong vs Dunell
Tom Campbell vs Cam Shenton
Alex Greenwood vs Jordan Staley
Jack Redpath/Mark Austin vs Minchington

2012
Nick Lower vs Dylan Roberton
Koby Stevens vs Tom Lee
Tom Young vs Tom Hickey/Trent Dennis-Lane
Stringer/McCrae/Hrovat vs Nathan Wright/Spencer White
Lachie Hunter/Josh Prudden/Brett Goodes vs Brodie Murdoch/Josh Saunders/Lewis Pierce

2013
Stuart Crameri vs Shane Savage/Luke Delaney
Sam Darley vs Billy Longer/Josh Bruce
Bontempelli vs Billings
Fuller/Honeychurch vs Dunstan/Acres/Templeton/Weller/Holmes

2014
Hamling vs Membrey
Tom Boyd/Biggs vs McCartin
McLean/Webb vs Goddard/McKenzie
Hamilton/Dale/Caleb Daniel/Cordy vs Lonie
Roarke Smith vs Sinclair
Kelly vs Saad
Daniel Pearce vs Payne
Goodes vs Schneider

2015
Suckling vs Freeman/Carlisle
Dunkley/Collins vs Gresham
Adams vs White
Williams vs Rice
Lynch vs Okearney
Goetz vs Coughlan
Adcock vs Saunders

Thats a very good post .
I reckon reading that we arent that far off .
A big thing that stood out to me was Spencer White , Tom Lee ( high pick ) selections hurt .
Critical 2016 1st round selection looms large for us , will we be brave and use it or trade it off ?

 

[Mowman]

well I reckon I've seen more coaches sacked than I have had girlfriends in my 46 years of following this mob.

With the Watters incident, there were telling signs.

At this stage, I really don't see any eery signs. All I am seeing is a bunch of insecure supporters not coping with supposed lack of progress.

Unless he is a megalomaniac or has lost the players, the club would be stupid to sack him after 3 years IMO. Let's remember that he isn't an established coach. This was his first senior gig, so he is also growing and learning.

At the very least, he has admitted that the coaching panel has to hold itself to account.

The club is strong enough to review all aspects these days. If Richo is the wrong man, then he will go. If he neds better support then he will get it.

As much as we all crave ultimate success, you can't really tell until 3 to 5 years. Also difficult to judge when you don't have the cattle. We have young, raw talent at this stage and I doubt they would have the same challenges executing a game plan if Clarko was coach.

My gut feel is that barring a catastrophic finish to the season, he will coach next year. The club knows where it's at with the rebuild. Hopefully common sense prevails either way.

Off the top my head, coaches i Have seen come and go
Jeans
Patterson
Smith
Gellie
Jezza
Jewels
Doc
Sheldon
Alves
Watson
Blight
thomas
Lyon
watters
Richo

And Im sure i have missed a couple, did have a few after golf today

 

[Kildonan]

looking at this dogs side out there, i thought that they had made just about every pick a winner, so i thought if i looked at their drafting/trading compared to ours i would see them surpassing us. but it didn't really look like that at all. we seemed to have done better as a whole but the dogs seemed to have picked up absolutely elite talent with a couple of high end selections, whilst we haven't really had that output. i think we need to do something similar in the next couple of drafts. need an absolutely WOW selection to happen

Good post

 

[Joffaboy]

Not at all, Plugger is the least meltiest of melters and Big Mart is MIA

Big Mart is lording it over the peasants at his feifdom SS.
Ran from here because his word was challenged.

 

[Choomah]

Off the top my head, coaches i Have seen come and go
Jeans
Patterson
Smith
Gellie
Jezza
Jewels
Doc
Sheldon
Alves
Watson
Blight
thomas
Lyon
watters
Richo

And Im sure i have missed a couple, did have a few after golf today

thats a fair hall ive only seen thomas lyon watters and richo ahah

 

[Mowman]

thats a fair hall ive only seen thomas lyon watters and richo ahah

In the bad old days if we won the coin toss it was a good day

 

[Dr Spaceman]

In the bad old days if we won the coin toss it was a good day

Was certainly worth an extra beer [emoji1][emoji481][emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

Dogs have obviously selected really well, but it also helps when you have three F/S picks who are superstars in Wallis, Libertore and Hunter take those three away and the dogs don't look so strong in the middle.

We have always missed out on f/s

Stupid genetic lottery

 

[Rors]

Yep. That's about all I'm able to stomach.

This board is going through some kind of existential crisis, generational shift or localised super-melt... and I'm done. I'm sick of the in-fighting, bitching and repetitive emotive bullshit and really sad, because it's exactly that that I left Saintsational to avoid.

I'll pop back into the 'Kids' thread from time to time, but it's been really disappointing to watch the inexorable erosion of the community atmosphere of this place.

Best of luck to you all, and go Saints.

Soft....

 

[Rors]

Talk about Richo's job being under pressure is laughable.

People need to go and have another look at the 2014 season to realise how far we have come under Richo in the 18 months.

4 wins for the year and a percentage of 60 for ****s sake (one of those wins were against Freos reserve grade side). Games like the ones against the Crows and Eagles were a regular thing. The poor bastard inherited the worst list in the AFL, he's had to build a side out of 3 years of kids and the rest made up of not great draft picks, DFA's and a shit load of rookie elevations.

We have not lost a game this year against a side we were expected to beat. We have beaten every side below and every side we've played that are around us. Not only that we have pushed two of the very best sides in the comp to a point that we were very unlucky to lose.

What a joke!

Na. That game v Freo in 2014 they were nearly full strength

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/2014/081520140719.html

We have a lot of talent, potential & skill on our list. For some reason the switch keeps getting turned on & off & we're far to inconsistent

 

[Present Not Past]

This comes under other problems:

THE SIX POINTS
1. The last time these teams played, St Kilda led by 14 points at the main break before conceding 12 goals to four in the second half. Lachie Henderson booted five goals and Tom Bell bagged four, while Marc Murphy picked up 34 disposals. None will be there this time.

2. The Saints are 3-3 at Etihad Stadium this year but are 1-4 away from the ground.

3. Carlton has won the past four clashes between the two sides. The Saints won nine of 11 before that.

4. No team has received fewer free kicks this season than St Kilda, with 174. That's almost 20 fewer than the 17th-ranked Gold Coast.

5. The Saints are 12-7 against Carlton at Etihad Stadium, although the two clubs didn't face each other at the ground in 2015.

6. Carlton has two players in the top 100 of the Schick AFL Player Ratings, while St Kilda has four.

It would seem that every team we have played so far this year has had the advantage on the field with the umpires.

 

[stavro#4]

Sweet baby jesus this place has gone crazy since my last post...so let me just clear a few things up;
I am not saying there is disharmony under Richo - Nor am i saying he will be sacked. What i am saying is that a Loss tomorrow and i believe for the first time since this rebuild started we will have some heat applied. Between tomorrow and the rest of the year, our players and coaches need to really start showing some momentum, for the following reason. Our rebuild is quite public, We outlined a very public path and we cannot hide from it. Next year is about making Finals, with 2018 all about competing for a flag and winning one before 2020.

The Plan this year is to win as many games as possible - simple.
If we somehow end up with a top 3 pick with Essendon,Freo,Gold coast,Brisbane all much worse then us, Richmond and Collingwood on the same level and Carlton who i think are worse then us aswell - then something has gone seriously wrong.
We are not a poor team - you have to understand that as of round 1 next year we have a gun defender ready to step into the team in Carlisle. He might have been the difference in the Hawk and North games(i personally think he makes us a 2 goal better side) then right now we are 6 wins with a soft draw to come and finals a real possibility if he could've played this year.
From a development point of view - i did try explain this other night. Richo and the coaches have tried to go into games developing as many players as possible and its causing us to be unbalanced at times. For example - Roo on a wing, as good as he is - we are losing a running linking midfielder. But this allows Membrey,McCartin and Bruce to play forward. Joey at half back, robs us of a Gun Mid when we desperately need one - but it allows Billings time in the guts, Which robs us of a very good player around the goals - potentially a match winner
Its a balancing act, that is why right now - you wont see Gilbert,Dempster,Geary all dropped for kids and to finish as low as possible. We also have to balance free agency. There are 4-5 very good mids in free agency this year and next who we could all make a play for. Martin,Neale, Gaff, Shiel, Prestia. You have to be attractive, Its why we can go calling for a top 3 pick in a draft(if we lose tomorrow) where there is not a clear standout in the top 10 Which means you have a crack at winning as many games as possible and hope you nail a gun mid. Club is waiting on O'meara, who has lost alot of value due to injuries. But he is still a gun.

Its all horses for courses, but your balancing stkilda's immediate future a draft pick vs player trading and sponsorship and membership. Remember we have a very public plan. We should be shooting up the ladder next year - so the pressure is on.

Our kids have to start putting there hands up - simple as that.Webster/Lonie/Sinclair/Dunstan etc I can't see them ever being players who win games on there own but they have to be players who are strong and contribute to a consistent successful side and perform week in and out. The match winners will be Mccartin,bruce,Billings, steven, possibly someone like Goddard and Acres. Guys who make things happen. There is a reason why Billings is playing pretty much as a full-time midfielder and that's because when he gets it things generally happen for us. His having games where he has 20 touches and 0.2 and everyone thinks he is just plodding along. If he kicks 2.0 he all of a sudden has superstar potential because he is converting and impacting. It's the centimeters in everything we do that we are getting wrong at the moment.

My issue in particular with Richo and coaches has been selection and the integrity of it.I haven't agreed with alot of the ins and outs he has made this year.I have thought Acres has deserved to be played more and played as a full-time mid.I thought Tom Lee did not deserved to be dropped and he should of been playing more.I still dont think Billings deserves to be dropped. I think he needed to be looked after better by our coaches. I would have loved to have seen them just say, this week Billings can play out of the goal square or roam around the forward 50 like a young Stevie J. i dont make these decisions and in all honesty it doesn't bother me if people agree with me or not - but i like to think i am fair and balanced. I congratulate and defend the club when i think appropriate and those i regularly speak with will know i whack them when required.

Honestly we just need a little bit of luck and we will take off. Maybe a lucky pick in the draft were we land a bonafide rolls Royce or maybe we just need someone to take there chance like a minchington. It's centimeters away from being successful at stkilda.

BUT what i am getting at is that the pressure will be on if there is a loss tomorrow and as of next year there will be expectation to start delivering from Richo and the Boys.

 

[puppy_dog7]

We lose another game by more than 10 goals immediate pressure will immediately go on Richo
We get smashed another 3 times by say Geelong, Sydney, Dogs he should be out
Have to be competitive in those games

As much as i hate to say it cos I love Richo, but I have to agree with you.. However if we were to win every other game on our run home easily he should be safe. Will depend on other results as well