Opinion The Trump Presidency

[philthy05]

From the transcript "I moved on her and I failed, I admit that".

Trump made a move on a woman, failed and didn't rape her. Where's the misogyny? Are all men who make a move on a woman suddenly rapists?



If you have never said anything privately that shouldn't be aired publicly, then you may pass judgement. It's quite simple.



Therefore 41% of women in the US qualify as misogynists?

I’m still flabbergasted that you simultaneously argue he didn’t do anything wrong with those comments and people say stupid stuff all the time so he shouldn’t be judged on it

If you don’t think what he said was wrong then we cannot have a conversation about it. Your concepts of what is wrong are far far different to mine.

As for the stuff said in private thing I’ve already said that is bullshit.

We cannot hold those in power to zero accountability on what they say because you think they should have a privacy clause or because you think everyone in their worst moment makes mistakes. That’s ridiculous. It’s a cop out. A person who has the power to make decisions he has absolutely has to be held to account for what he says.

We should not have to expect the very worst of humanity from those that lead. That is a horrible defeatist benchmark.

When I was 13 no doubt i probably made a (or several) sexist / racist / homophobic remark in there somewhere. Probably inspired by the stupidity of others. Thank * I’ve seen people held to account for stupid actions and changed my behaviour. You want us locked into never criticising someone because of what now?

And stupid people doing stupid things doesn’t make others not a mysoginist. I’m doubtful as to that 41% of American women are pro abortion thing you reckon but regardless it doesn’t make trump less wrong. It just means there are more idiots.

 

[Ando39]

???

So much wrong with this statement

As another poster pointed out why are you assuming any person who dislikes trump is aligned to another candidate?

Also, losing an election might be a reflection on the other candidates, but more so isn’t it a reflection on the voters and other factors ? Like if Taylor swift won a Grammy does it mean every other recording artists is s**t or does it more likely represent the voting systems , the commercial nature of money in music and promotion and a reflection moreso on the voting public?

Not to mention Russian meddling.


As for promoting the narrative he is a moron, why would we not? Would you stand by and watch the not so smart kid next door pouring gasoline over his dog while his dad welds 2 meters away or would you think that maybe a dog shouldn’t burn and your house might be next if you let someone do something stupid?

So your solution if you dont support Trump and want to stop him is to... support noone. Its a bold strategy I'll give you that.

As for Russian meddling, Mueller's spokeman (Rosenstein I think his name is) has come out and declared no Americans are suspected of collusion, and the investigation is focused on 13 Russians in regards to trying to interfere in the election. He also said that it is not believed that the result of the election was affected in any way.

As for your other issues with Trump throughout this thread, I would love to think you would have had the same gusto had this thread been "The Clinton Presidency" in attacking her for helping silence her husbands accusers (to just go with the most plausible allegation among many), but alas my crystal ball told me to stop being an idiot.

 

[philthy05]

So your solution if you dont support Trump and want to stop him is to... support noone. Its a bold strategy I'll give you that.

As for Russian meddling, Mueller's spokeman (Rosenstein I think his name is) has come out and declared no Americans are suspected of collusion, and the investigation is focused on 13 Russians in regards to trying to interfere in the election. He also said that it is not believed that the result of the election was affected in any way.

As for your other issues with Trump throughout this thread, I would love to think you would have had the same gusto had this thread been "The Clinton Presidency" in attacking her for helping silence her husbands accusers (to just go with the most plausible allegation among many), but alas my crystal ball told me to stop being an idiot.

So we have choose a side? Can’t that side be right and wrong no matter what political side someone falls on shouldn’t we, isn’t it our duty to question whether they are right or wrong?

Like you honestly believe that if any Democrat made the same comments/actions as trump I would support them? Seriously ?

I don’t think I brought up Russians here that was another poster laughing at trumps tweets regarding that matter.

I’m not sure though that I would be bragging about that. If the worst thing is that no American had any involvement it still isn’t a ringing endorsement of trump if Russia thought that getting trump elected would further Russia and be detrimental to America (if that was their motive which I have to say I haven’t followed it the last few weeks closely so I may not know the details closely maybe they had another smaller aim?)

 

[Forzaport]

I’m still flabbergasted that you simultaneously argue he didn’t do anything wrong with those comments and people say stupid stuff all the time so he shouldn’t be judged on it

Actually, I argued that the pussy grabbing statement was not an example of misogyny. Then I argued there was no rape or promotion of rape.

If you don’t think what he said was wrong then we cannot have a conversation about it. Your concepts of what is wrong are far far different to mine.

As for the stuff said in private thing I’ve already said that is bullshit.

I haven't yet stated what I think is right or wrong. I did state that people say things privately that they wish weren't made public, such males boasting about their experiences with consenting females.

We cannot hold those in power to zero accountability on what they say because you think they should have a privacy clause or because you think everyone in their worst moment makes mistakes. That’s ridiculous. It’s a cop out. A person who has the power to make decisions he has absolutely has to be held to account for what he says.

Should we also punish men in power for thinking about having sex with consenting women?

We should not have to expect the very worst of humanity from those that lead. That is a horrible defeatist benchmark.

When I was 13 no doubt i probably made a (or several) sexist / racist / homophobic remark in there somewhere. Probably inspired by the stupidity of others. Thank **** I’ve seen people held to account for stupid actions and changed my behaviour. You want us locked into never criticising someone because of what now?

So you're arguing that Trump is the very worst of humanity because, during a private conservation that was secretly recorded 10 years ago and released to the public on the cusp of the presidential election, he tried and failed to have sex with a woman and said that celebrities can have their way with women giving the visual example of grabbing them by the pussy.

I never said Trump is above criticism. I argued this particular example is not a example of misogyny nor rape.

And stupid people doing stupid things doesn’t make others not a mysoginist. I’m doubtful as to that 41% of American women are pro abortion thing you reckon but regardless it doesn’t make trump less wrong. It just means there are more idiots.

69% of Republicans and 28% Democrats are pro-life in the US. A Republican president will cut global abortion funding and a Democratic president will do the opposite. Once again, it's not in the sphere of misogyny.

 

[StrappingTape]

So in these posts you claim I’m too emotional , have the intellect of a 15yr old and wouldn’t listen to your arguments if you cared to present them.

Classic play the man rather than the logic move there.

I'm not playing the man, I'm stating to you why it would be a waste of time arguing to change your opinion you clearly are not going to no matter what.

How is drawing a line from trumps rant that he just grabs pussies to rape culture a huge leap?

Ever been out on a night with the boys and someone bragging about banging women etc? Is that mate a rapist or promoting rape culture or just trying to be the big man with his friends? I would say the latter. In all of Trumps life which has been very public he has elevated women all throughout his business, he has never cared about gender just who can do the best job.

In what way does Silver always just fold to the players ? Because a half time sports performance got slightly political? **** me. No one has ever seen a musical act use a stage to express something like that before. Like that has never happened before in history right? And Adam silver just rolled over and let it happen. I simply praised Adam silver because of the way he has conducted himself running a huge international sporting brand (at the same time knocking trump because of the way he conducts himself running the country) If he has failures, which is entirely likely I’m more than open listening to what they are rather than claims he is a beta who gives players whatever they want (im honestly not sure what you are referring to there? And I’m honestly interested)

OK I can reply to this.

No, it was before the Dunk contest and it was some bizarre from what I could tell to have current day players say that they are the equivalent of people who actually fought racial injustice and hardship which is laughable. It used to be all about entertainment but this years sucked major ass, he did do a good job with the Team's thing though and is onto something there. I can't blame him for Fergie though lol

Look, I don't think there's been a major decision he hasn't sided with the players on but he's also been in the position he hasn't had to do too many hard decisions yet as the league's been pretty stable when he took over, unlike when Stern took over. If you want to see him struggle, he isn't exactly handling the players and refs too well this year because he gets pushed over by the players, always. I think this s**t will bubble as it's not sorted and the playoffs are around the corner. I do say I find it amusing when I watch the NBA and the consistency of calls between crews and games is damn good and when I think about how watching the AFL it goes all over the shop from one quarter to another that maybe they don't have it that bad.

Also, why do all trump fans always put any critic of trumps into some corner with other people? we don’t like what trump does means we are okaying what some other shithead may or may not have done ?

I was just using some of your absurd logic for rape culture, I wasn't putting you in some corner.

 

[philthy05]

Actually, I argued that the pussy grabbing statement was not an example of misogyny. Then I argued there was no rape or promotion of rape.



I haven't yet stated what I think is right or wrong. I did state that people say things privately that they wish weren't made public, such males boasting about their experiences with consenting females.



Should we also punish men in power for thinking about having sex with consenting women?



So you're arguing that Trump is the very worst of humanity because, during a private conservation that was secretly recorded 10 years ago and released to the public on the cusp of the presidential election, he tried and failed to have sex with a woman and said that celebrities can have their way with women giving the visual example of grabbing them by the pussy.

I never said Trump is above criticism. I argued this particular example is not a example of misogyny nor rape.



69% of Republicans and 28% Democrats are pro-life in the US. A Republican president will cut global abortion funding and a Democratic president will do the opposite. Once again, it's not in the sphere of misogyny.

Trump didn’t hit on a woman and get rebuked

It was the manner he spoke about women in that rant that was disgusting and entirely representative of his ideas about women.

He is a part of promoting rape culture no matter how much you wanna deny it.

He doesn’t get a pass on it because he didn’t think others would hear it.

 

[philthy05]

I'm not playing the man, I'm stating to you why it would be a waste of time arguing to change your opinion you clearly are not going to no matter what.



Ever been out on a night with the boys and someone bragging about banging women etc? Is that mate a rapist or promoting rape culture or just trying to be the big man with his friends? I would say the latter. In all of Trumps life which has been very public he has elevated women all throughout his business, he has never cared about gender just who can do the best job.



OK I can reply to this.

No, it was before the Dunk contest and it was some bizarre from what I could tell to have current day players say that they are the equivalent of people who actually fought racial injustice and hardship which is laughable. It used to be all about entertainment but this years sucked major ass, he did do a good job with the Team's thing though and is onto something there. I can't blame him for Fergie though lol

Look, I don't think there's been a major decision he hasn't sided with the players on but he's also been in the position he hasn't had to do too many hard decisions yet as the league's been pretty stable when he took over, unlike when Stern took over. If you want to see him struggle, he isn't exactly handling the players and refs too well this year because he gets pushed over by the players, always. I think this s**t will bubble as it's not sorted and the playoffs are around the corner. I do say I find it amusing when I watch the NBA and the consistency of calls between crews and games is damn good and when I think about how watching the AFL it goes all over the shop from one quarter to another that maybe they don't have it that bad.



I was just using some of your absurd logic for rape culture, I wasn't putting you in some corner.

I hope to hell you hold trump to a higher standard with his comments than drunken 18yr olds on a night out. If you don’t then it says heaps about him and his supporters.

I don’t think silver has been really tested , except for the Phil Jackson saga , the super teams sagas , the ref v players saga , the college one and done situation , the bended knee at anthem saga, gsw and Kerr speaking on trump deal, well when you look at it like that it’s more than the afl has dealt with in like 15 years. But I think he has come into a good situation though with the place nba is at.

Agree nba is reffed way better than afl with the exception of some shitty tech calls.

 

[Ando39]

So we have choose a side? Can’t that side be right and wrong no matter what political side someone falls on shouldn’t we, isn’t it our duty to question whether they are right or wrong?

Like you honestly believe that if any Democrat made the same comments/actions as trump I would support them? Seriously ?

I don’t think I brought up Russians here that was another poster laughing at trumps tweets regarding that matter.

I’m not sure though that I would be bragging about that. If the worst thing is that no American had any involvement it still isn’t a ringing endorsement of trump if Russia thought that getting trump elected would further Russia and be detrimental to America (if that was their motive which I have to say I haven’t followed it the last few weeks closely so I may not know the details closely maybe they had another smaller aim?)

You brought up Russian election meddling to me. I was explaining why that was irrelevant. The first claim made way back in the middle of 2016 as to why Putin may want to back Trump over Clinton (before every Democrat in the country decided on November 10 that the Russians must have stolen the election from them because there's no way they could have possibly lost it themselves) was that he felt Clinton may have had plans to try and get him removed from power, whereas Trump had talked of either leaving them alone, or even in some cases working with them.

As for Clinton and Democrats, she has silenced alleged rape victims. This isnt some hypothetical. She has helped silence women and stop them from having their day in court. Further, this isnt some "oh my how I never" complaint about some terribly gutter level language on a bus while being secretly recorded. This is actual actions involving womens lives being meddled with.

But that's fine you'll shift back to the "oh cant we just call right and wrong out on all sides?" without actually doing it and shift back to Trump being mean.

Anyway I'll leave you alone because we've probably taught each other all we're going to and I spent too long watching Port in 2011/12 to know that going round and round in circles never ends well

 

[Forzaport]

Trump didn’t hit on a woman and get rebuked

"I moved on her and I failed, I admit that". The sky is blue.

It was the manner he spoke about women in that rant that was disgusting and entirely representative of his ideas about women.

I hope you apply the same level of scrutiny to others when the opportunity arises and ignore all the opposing evidence (such as focusing on women in business, women entrepreneurs and women in STEM careers)

He is a part of promoting rape culture no matter how much you wanna deny it.

Show me evidence that is more than stereotypical male boasting and I'll believe you.

He doesn’t get a pass on it because he didn’t think others would hear it.

It didn't sink him for the election and it hasn't dogged him post election because many people are able to see it for what it is, locker room talk that has been wildly overblown by a hostile media. Maybe the media will give it another run now that their Russian narrative has tanked.

Trump isn't anywhere near as bad as he's made out to be. The longer the anti-Trump media continue with false narratives, the harder it will be to defeat him at the polls when it counts, especially if the US economy keeps on keeping on and the Democrats continue to shoot themselves in their collective feet.

 

[StrappingTape]

Trump isn't anywhere near as bad as he's made out to be. The longer the anti-Trump media continue with false narratives, the harder it will be to defeat him at the polls when it counts, especially if the US economy keeps on keeping on and the Democrats continue to shoot themselves in their collective feet.

This, what exactly are they going to throw at him next election? When your entire platform is based on hate and disruption but no actual plans that's a hard sell. I expect them to go the most cynical route possible and put up a minority woman and try and win on identity politics again with no actual plan except no Trump.

 

[Forzaport]

This, what exactly are they going to throw at him next election? When your entire platform is based on hate and disruption but no actual plans that's a hard sell. I expect them to go the most cynical route possible and put up a minority woman and try and win on identity politics again with no actual plan except no Trump.

It's not a stretch to wonder if there will ever be another white male Democrat candidate. That said, had Clinton not rigged the primary, Bernie would have had a fighting chance.

I reckon the most cynical move will be going with a celebrity. Oprah fits the bill but I reckon she's smart enough to wait for Trump to finish up first. If the US economy continues to boom and Trump delivers enough on immigration, health, infrastructure, debt and trade, he'll easily win a second term. On the other hand, if he achieves all that, it may not be a bad idea to bow out after 1 term. He'll be the oldest serving president if he goes for 2 full terms.

 

[TeeKray]

It's not a stretch to wonder if there will ever be another white male Democrat candidate. That said, had Clinton not rigged the primary, Bernie would have had a fighting chance.

I reckon the most cynical move will be going with a celebrity. Oprah fits the bill but I reckon she's smart enough to wait for Trump to finish up first. If the US economy continues to boom and Trump delivers enough on immigration, health, infrastructure, debt and trade, he'll easily win a second term. On the other hand, if he achieves all that, it may not be a bad idea to bow out after 1 term. He'll be the oldest serving president if he goes for 2 full terms.

 

[StrappingTape]

It's not a stretch to wonder if there will ever be another white male Democrat candidate. That said, had Clinton not rigged the primary, Bernie would have had a fighting chance.

I reckon the most cynical move will be going with a celebrity. Oprah fits the bill but I reckon she's smart enough to wait for Trump to finish up first. If the US economy continues to boom and Trump delivers enough on immigration, health, infrastructure, debt and trade, he'll easily win a second term. On the other hand, if he achieves all that, it may not be a bad idea to bow out after 1 term. He'll be the oldest serving president if he goes for 2 full terms.

Bernie's not even a Dem, he's a massive commie independent. It was hilarious to see the state of the Democrats that someone like that even got so close and had to be cheated against to make sure they still nominated their own.

 

[Schulzenfest]

I think Bernie/Clinton/Trump was a bit of a Rock Paper Scissors situation. Clinton beat Bernie, Trump was the perfect candidate to beat Clinton, but Bernie would’ve been the perfect candidate to beat Trump.

 

[StrappingTape]

I think Bernie/Clinton/Trump was a bit of a Rock Paper Scissors situation. Clinton beat Bernie, Trump was the perfect candidate to beat Clinton, but Bernie would’ve been the perfect candidate to beat Trump.

It's all hypothetical but Bernie would have gotten smashed. Take those ideas to the general public and the fact he had zero presence or fight, it'd be like feeding a deer to lions. He won over the Dem's new far left identity politics base but was subsequently walked over even in his own rallies by these people. No fight and trying to take a plan for soft communism to the American electorate lol. Now he's gone back to being an independent flip flopping previously held positions with no media scrutiny at all. Would have been interesting seeing him argue against Russia with his history and those policies of his.

 

[Ando39]

It's all hypothetical but Bernie would have gotten smashed. Take those ideas to the general public and the fact he had zero presence or fight, it'd be like feeding a deer to lions. He won over the Dem's new far left identity politics base but was subsequently walked over even in his own rallies by these people. No fight and trying to take a plan for soft communism to the American electorate lol. Now he's gone back to being an independent flip flopping previously held positions with no media scrutiny at all. Would have been interesting seeing him argue against Russia with his history and those policies of his.

Trump would have had a field day against the self described socialist who is entirely devoid of charisma and refused to attack opponents, owned two vacation homes, and wanted to take away all your money to give it to other people while making millions off of writing a book talking about how millionaires are horrible hoarders of wealth. It might well have been the first 50 state sweep.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Anyone catch the full interview with THE SHARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRK last night. Oz's secret weapon with Trump. Will Malcolm given him an invite to Washington later this week.




Found the full interview

 

[Moo87]

1) The Muslim Ban - It's actually a travel ban for people from countries that are unable to reliably verify the identity of their citizens entering the US. Iraq was removed from the list of banned countries because they agreed to improve their security measures and work with the US State Department. The ban has precisely zero to do with race.

Carn. Donald Trump disagrees.

Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country’s representatives can figure out what is going on.

Source: Press release from the Trump campaign, Dec. 7, 2015

 

[Forzaport]

Carn. Donald Trump disagrees.


Source: Press release from the Trump campaign, Dec. 7, 2015

Islam is open to all races. Educate yourself.

 

[Schulzenfest]

Islam is open to all races. Educate yourself.

You know you’ve lost the bigotry argument when ‘iSLam Is NoT a RacE’ comes out. You don’t get out of bigotry on a technicality just because ‘religionist’ isn’t a word.

 

[Forzaport]

You know you’ve lost the bigotry argument when ‘iSLam Is NoT a RacE’ comes out. You don’t get out of bigotry on a technicality just because ‘religionist’ isn’t a word.

Why are you trying to pivot to a bigotry argument when the topic in question was clearly about race?

If you want to formulate an argument that the travel ban is an example of bigotry as opposed to racism, go right ahead, I'll destroy that one too.

 

[Schulzenfest]

Why are you trying to pivot to a bigotry argument when the topic in question was clearly about race?

If you want to formulate an argument that the travel ban is an example of bigotry as opposed to racism, go right ahead, I'll destroy that one too.

Because ‘Islam is not a race’ is the weakest, laziest response to an argument about someone being a shitty person. Why is being prejudiced against a religion somehow better than being prejudiced against a race?

Trump explicitly stated that he wanted to ban all Muslims from entering the United States. I don’t need to formulate an argument that it’s a bigoted statement. The argument is self-evident.

 

[Forzaport]

Because ‘Islam is not a race’ is the weakest, laziest response to an argument about someone being a shitty person. Why is being prejudiced against a religion somehow better than being prejudiced against a race?

Trump explicitly stated that he wanted to ban all Muslims from entering the United States. I don’t need to formulate an argument that it’s a bigoted statement. The argument is self-evident.

Then you agree that my statement about the travel ban having precisely zero to do with race is correct. QED.

Keep with your strawman though.

 

[TeeKray]

Why is being prejudiced against a religion somehow better than being prejudiced against a race?

Religious vilification has actually become much more socially acceptable in recent times. Witness the treatment of Shaun Hart on this board. I think it's considered a level below racism on the prejudice stakes nowadays.

 

[Moo87]

Islam is open to all races. Educate yourself.

That is true, but discrimination against religion and race often go hand in hand. Not to mention in your post you argued against it being designed as a Muslim ban despite Trump explicitly saying this is what he was aiming for.

I guess you could make a similar argument that “blacks” is not a race when Trump said “I think sometimes a black may think they don’t have an advantage or this and that. I’ve said on one occasion, even about myself, if I were starting off today, I would love to be a well educated black, because I really believe they do have an actual advantage.”

In a similar vein, his comments about one of his former accountants “Black guys counting my money! I hate it. The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes every day. … I think that the guy is lazy. And it’s probably not his fault, because laziness is a trait in blacks. It really is, I believe that. It’s not anything they can control.”

He initially denied the comments, but over a decade later conceded they were “probably true.”

Trump has recently referred to entire African countries, as well as Haiti and El Salvador, as “shitholes”, questioning why the US would want anyone from there.

He also claimed Mexican immigrants to the US “are, in many cases, criminals, drug dealers, rapists, etc.”

In 2016 he claimed a judge was biased against him because of the judges Mexican heritage.

In the 70’s when he was president of his families real estate firm they were sued by the Justice Department (of the Nixon government) for systematically discriminating against African -Americans for rental tenancy. The case was settled.

So there’s multiple corroborated examples spanning decades which many would view as racist, or at least bigoted conments about minorities.

You can argue the details of each comment, that he was misunderstood etc, but at the end of the day I’d say being associated with racial discrimination and discrimation against other minorities paints enough of a picture.