The two major problems of 2012

[burtpies]

I think this will happen:
With the return of N. Brown to the side he will go up forward as the 3rd tall with Dawes taking the 2nd ruck role. He has the size not to be pushed around like our skinny ruck options and can play the forward role better than Brown did.

 

[Knightmare]

We need to fast track witts development, so we do have the ruck backup as i have little faith in wood.

With Witts I'd be a little more cautious. You only have to look at those rucks who have played games early on to know how negatively that has hurt their long term AFL careers. Physically, sure he has size. But that doesn't mean he has the durability built up yet and at 209cm even though a year more mature he needs at least 2 development years at VFL level before he is ready for any senior games.

Suggesting Paine as a legitimate option for the year is... I mean, come on. Tarrant is a good suggestion, and may be given the role as part of the broader scope of a utility.

Paine isn't coming from as far back as many think. During the U18 champs in a couple of games played better than Jonathan Patton (eventually dropping his draft stocks late measuring in shorter than expected). Not to say he is the better player, he isn't nearly the monster Patton is but he is ready to play, and with his style of play even if he isn't a top 30 guy on our list he could still potentially play a role and be injected into the team if we so wanted and his VFL form was strong because he fits what our forwardline is about and can play a role appropriate to our needs because he can be used as a marking target while also providing some tackling pressure in the forward half.

I'm more so providing out of the box suggestions to remain innovative and to provoke new thought and Paine very much fits into this box. But it possibly isn't as radical as it sounds (for a key forward selected at pick 50 by a premiership team I admit). Chances are he plays no senior games this year. But I wouldn't entirely discount his chances.

My only issue is gameplan.

I want to see us go back to actually playing our press.

This myth that it's been 'figured out' is horseshit. West Coast used it all year and it worked for them outside a handful of games. We only lost 2 games WITHOUT using it.

It's Buckley's gameplan anyway, I want to see us go back to using it.

I agree that the press is the right gameplan to go with and we have the pieces to play it effectively.

Another idea I'd toy with would be to play 2 extra defenders (eg. Harry + Maxy). Have Maxwell as the loose defender and have Harry charging down the middle and being used as a purely offensive running player.

So with the two less defenders it would mean we play a forward set up of:
F: Chris Dawes
HF: Steele Sidebottom Travis Cloke Alex Fasolo

The reason I would consider this is that if we use the style of play with the quick ball movement we used in the first half of 2011 this is when we were most effective and we'd have our smalls such as Sidebottom and bigs such as Cloke streaming towards goal which was just so much harder to defend. And with Macaffer and possibly Krakouer out for the season this might be a logical way to play our pure best 22 and while a slight alteration to our gameplan I think it could suit out team better.

In terms of gamestyle I love the way we played in the first half of 2011. Our ball movement was so quick and crisp. Really was fantastic football.
If you can combine that to our press and pressure game of 2010 we might just have something.

I don't think they're our two major problems this year, but I thought I might contribute anyway

Basically what we're looking at with the third tall is someone that can negate the influence of Scarlett and Gibson (who'll be released this year with Gilham fit). Caff and Brown did that exceptionally in 2010, but we couldn't do it as well last year. Scarlett dominated our smaller forwards in the air in the GF so we need a way to make him accountable.

With Caff going down my best guess is that Bucks will try to use Goldsack in much the same way Essendon used Welsh last year against the Cats. It'll be a pseudo negating role which Goldsack's up to defensively IMO and if he managed to keep Scarlett quiet I'd be quite happy if he ended up with 5 possessions and 5 tackles! He's never really been given a consistent crack at things so maybe giving him the first half of the season as a guaranteed starter will bring out the best of him in that role.

The Goldsack idea is a really interesting alternative and there is certainly merit in the idea. Typically I like Goldsack more down back, but with the loaded backline this could be his way into the senior side and at his age you have to give him the role that gives him the greatest opportunity to appear in the 1s.

Talking Geelong the one forwardline they have struggled against has been Carlton's midget forwardline. All those smalls zipping around and with the Geelong backline made up of almost all talls this has caused them trouble.

I dont think anybody would argue that a fully fit Jolly is our best ruckman.

The question is how to utilise him properly to extend his career without hyper extending his knee. Thats why I think we should revert to two traditional ruckmen in 2012. Theres nothing radical in suggesting our two best ruckmen should be in the 22. Theres no point going the Leigh Brown option if you dont have a Leigh Brown on your list.

Really good point.

My solution to extending his career is to give him 2-3 rounds rest.

My concern with playing Jolly as the no.2 ruckman is that come finals time when he has been playing as the no.2 ruckman that he won't be able to just play the no.1 role up to the same standard as he typically does. It's like taking Tarrant out of the backline and playing him forward for the year and then come finals time saying "move back to the backline" and expect him to produce to the level he did in 2011. It just doesn't happen that way and adjusting doesn't happen that easily.

 

[Swooop]

I think this will happen:
With the return of N. Brown to the side he will go up forward as the 3rd tall with Dawes taking the 2nd ruck role. He has the size not to be pushed around like our skinny ruck options and can play the forward role better than Brown did.

I'd love to see this trialled -sounds a great idea to me and reckon high chance it might work.

If Brown came off as a forward and if Dawes could be a Leroy ( and I reckon they're not huge or unrealistic 'ifs') we'd be a significantly stronger team IMHO.

Dawes' greatest strength to my thinking is his creativity and the second ruck position, resting forward could see that flourish.

Brwon is big and strong and may well be able to make the transition...pretty sure he'd have played forward at some stage of his career

Another option of course, is that Brown plays back and Reid is trialled forward, if he's anything like his little bro he'd go OK

 

[THATSGOLD]

I'll bring a positive to the thread. Cloke and Dawes will be THAT much better than 2010. Dawes looked amazing saturday night and those two together are virtually unstoppable. Hopefully they play every game.
It will be a small forwards dream to play under these two in 2012. A blair type might find himself down there a fair bit.

 

[Old Spice]

Maccafer had great hands and found space very nicely, rewatch 2010 GF. I don't know that Goldsack has a great mark, rarely viewed.

I'd prefer to keep him in defence and see Tarrant or Reid swing forward when Jolly is not there as the second ruck.

McNamara is pie in the sky stuff at this point, he was all at sea in the VFL. I recall him asking from the boundary line against S'ham where he should position himself and being told to get off in no uncertain terms.

I'd like to see (form permitting) Wood as no. 1 ruck against Geelong, Hawthorn, GC, GWS, Richmond, Adelaide, Port, St Kilda, Melbourne and Dogs, with jolly relieving and up forward. Jolly as no.1 against Carlton, Brisbane, WC, Freo, Essendon, North and Sydney.

'Form permitting' is obviously a huge caveat.

I don't see any reason though why we couldn't experiment with someone like Goldenballs in the centre. We might also utilise in that situation a third man up around the ground as St Kilda did so usefully at times in 2010.

 

[TradeDraft]

Paine isn't coming from as far back as many think. During the U18 champs in a couple of games played better than Jonathan Patton (eventually dropping his draft stocks late measuring in shorter than expected). Not to say he is the better player, he isn't nearly the monster Patton is but he is ready to play, and with his style of play even if he isn't a top 30 guy on our list he could still potentially play a role and be injected into the team if we so wanted and his VFL form was strong because he fits what our forwardline is about and can play a role appropriate to our needs because he can be used as a marking target while also providing some tackling pressure in the forward half.

I'm more so providing out of the box suggestions to remain innovative and to provoke new thought and Paine very much fits into this box. But it possibly isn't as radical as it sounds (for a key forward selected at pick 50 by a premiership team I admit). Chances are he plays no senior games this year. But I wouldn't entirely discount his chances.

Also Snoop said he had a Very Strong Final Series to the Premiers Sandy Dragons.

I say he Starts at VFL Level but it's not out of the Question he could come into the Side from good VFL Form and make a Impact Mid to Late in the AFL Season

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Another option of course, is that Brown plays back and Reid is trialled forward, if he's anything like his little bro he'd go OK

Is your memory really that short?

Reid was a terrible forward.

TERRIBLE.

 

[ash84]

The rest are either not good enough (McNamara and Keefe) or are too young (Witts, Ceglar, Gault etc).

Keefe is not a ruckman so you wouldn't expect him to be good enough.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Is your memory really that short?

Reid was a terrible forward.

TERRIBLE.

Myth.

He was a kid.

 

[Scodog10]

The Goldsack idea is a really interesting alternative and there is certainly merit in the idea. Typically I like Goldsack more down back, but with the loaded backline this could be his way into the senior side and at his age you have to give him the role that gives him the greatest opportunity to appear in the 1s.

Talking Geelong the one forwardline they have struggled against has been Carlton's midget forwardline. All those smalls zipping around and with the Geelong backline made up of almost all talls this has caused them trouble.

TBH I prefer him down back as well, but I just think with Caff going down he's the player best suited as a replacement on our list for the time being (you just cant expect a kid to negate Scarlett late in September). He's in the final year of a contract, has been at the club 6 years and has never really owned a position.

Him being a role player would help us get back to what made us so much less predictable in 2010 when we had guys filling roles with a couple of stars added in for good measure. It goes hand in hand with what I think is our biggest problem heading into the year, which is our lack of scoring power against fellow top 4 teams...

We were fine in 2010 and early 2011, but outside of that we've averaged around 65ppg against the better teams and that just won't get the job done. So we need to find more avenues to goal and Speshal Ed nailed it when discussing ramping up the forward press again. It'll create more opportunities in the forward half for our midfielders which in turn will hopefully mean greater scoring ability!

 

[kevind]

My only issue is gameplan.

I want to see us go back to actually playing our press.

This myth that it's been 'figured out' is horseshit. West Coast used it all year and it worked for them outside a handful of games. We only lost 2 games WITHOUT using it.

It's Buckley's gameplan anyway, I want to see us go back to using it.

NO myth.

There were only 2 sides who figured it out or more accurately, had the skills to exploit it, Geelong and Hawthorn. We only beat Hawthorn when we abandoned the press for man on man football in the last quarter.

They both figured it out slighltly differently but used a similar principle. Geelong found that if they cut out the handball( a major reason that the press was successful against them) and kicked more that resulting marks could not be tackled, rendering the 'press' ineffective.

They also kicked the ball in zig zag fashion in defence but when they pierced through they went long and direct to their forwards. Therefore exploiting the weakness of the press, no cover when a side gets through it.

Hawthorn's idea was to keep possession through short passes. Once again, if the player marks, you cannot tackle them. This method was less effective because they could not move the ball to the forwards as quickly as the Cats due to over possession.

The press is still going to be effective, but against the really skilled sides by foot, it has its weaknesses.

 

[kevind]

Is your memory really that short?

Reid was a terrible forward.

TERRIBLE.

Kicking for goal, yes.

He did however move beautifully as a forward. In a game against Carlton a few years back he led Jarrad Waite on a merry dance. Maybe wishful thinking that his goalkicking yips have disappeared, but as a third tall forward he would be a nightmare match up as he has speed, footy smarts and is much better overhead than Chris Dawes.

 

[No SPIN]

NO myth.

There were only 2 sides who figured it out or more accurately, had the skills to exploit it, Geelong and Hawthorn. We only beat Hawthorn when we abandoned the press for man on man football in the last quarter.

They both figured it out slighltly differently but used a similar principle. Geelong found that if they cut out the handball( a major reason that the press was successful against them) and kicked more that resulting marks could not be tackled, rendering the 'press' ineffective.

They also kicked the ball in zig zag fashion in defence but when they pierced through they went long and direct to their forwards. Therefore exploiting the weakness of the press, no cover when a side gets through it.

Hawthorn's idea was to keep possession through short passes. Once again, if the player marks, you cannot tackle them. This method was less effective because they could not move the ball to the forwards as quickly as the Cats due to over possession.

The press is still going to be effective, but against the really skilled sides by foot, it has its weaknesses.

We perfected the PRESS before the rule change - without 4 on the bench it must have been judged by MM to physically demanding to play the press as in 2010. Therefore I can't see how the 2010 version of the press can ever return unless we go back to 4 on the bench.

 

[TradeDraft]

Kicking for goal, yes.

He did however move beautifully as a forward. In a game against Carlton a few years back he led Jarrad Waite on a merry dance. Maybe wishful thinking that his goalkicking yips have disappeared, but as a third tall forward he would be a nightmare match up as he has speed, footy smarts and is much better overhead than Chris Dawes.

But that would Stuff up our Backline

 

[Knightmare]

Reid probably could play forward now if he wanted.

When he played forward in the early days he had no size (80kg) and had no kicking penetration (couldn't kick over 40m).

So there is a BIG difference between early career Reid and Reid now.

The only scenario I would play Reid as a forward would be if both Cloke + Dawes got injured. His style of play is better suited as a defender with his ball reading ability, to chop off the ball and find that long target down the field.
But I don't doubt that not that he is an established player that he could go forward if requred. As Brian Lake, Nathan Bock, Dustin Fletcher among other key defenders can make the switch and more than hold their own.


With gameplans there are always going to be better and better ways to play against certain styles of play or gameplans and you always need to adjust yours. But you play the stronger game you win. The best approach is always to play the game best suited to the playing group you have. If you play that and execute that you can win.
With a list that has shown that we can play the press effectively why give up on it now?

 

[Old Spice]

But that would Stuff up our Backline

Don't see how when (injuries aside) we have already too many tall defenders. Rambo, Tarrant and add to that Goldy.

What I'd really like to see is the Pies making hay while the sun is still shining. That is, don't wait for injuries to come along and then have your hand forced in blooding players at the top level. The move of Keeffe to the forward line is a case in point. Learning the ropes against a top 8 team like Carlton in a position he didn't play was just a Clarkson / Dawsonesque error. A pointless exercise.

I don't care about pumping bottom teams by 12 goals, I'd prefer to trial 1-3 young players, who have shown some form, against weaker teams to develop them.

It keeps players with niggles fresh, keeps everyone hungry and let's us know if they are up to the level and if they are its a confidence booster.

 

[Ed D]

Reid was never a poor (or short) kick on goal. Everyone keeps saying he was because of that stuffed up kick he had against Carlton which got replayed on The Footy Show. I remember it well. He marked the ball near the boundary on the 50m arch, he went back to take the shot, took a few steps and nearly passed the ball but then chose not to and at the same time the umpire told him to hurry up, so his run up is screwed and doesn't have time to go back so he does his small steps to correct himself and looks like an idiot.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Regarding OP, I really liked what I saw about Shae on Saturday night. But we didn't really see him rucking.

He was playing a fair bit at full back on Izzy, and people could argue that Izzy is crap. But Izzy is a strong powerful body and Shae had his measure.

There was one notable moment when there was a throw-in from the pocket and Izzy tried to lead Shae away from the goal - Shae cottoned on quick and didn't get sucked in. I saw Keefe in a similar situation and he was all lost and we had a goal scored against us because of it.

But I saw another moment when Daisy had the ball, Shae was directly in front of him and all clear for miles - Daisy decided against getting it to Shae, wasted time, turned it over, and we had a goal scored against us. Showed that the confidence in Shae isn't sky high.

 

[Quicky]

I don't mind the idea of playing Reid forward. I actually think he would kill it up there. His kicking issues get way overstated based on a pretty small sample.

The problem I see is who to then play at CHB? I think both Tarrant and Brown are much better suited to FB. You wonder if it is robbing Peter to pay Paul.

I do think we need some options in the event things aren't going to plan. We were pretty limp at times up forward last year so we need some alternatives. I wouldn't mind seeing Reid or Tarrant thrown into the forward mix at times just so the option is there if we need it.

 

[blaze036]

I suspect Tarrant and Brown will miss quiet a few games each in 2012. So many just horses for courses out of the 3, because i dont think too often all 3 will be fully fit. Just based on the fact Tarrents getting old now and had a few niggles lately, and we all now how brown goes with injuries.

 

[Magpies2010]

With Ben Reid maybe Bucks can use him like Adam Hunter at West Coast, ring any bells? That guy was dynamic either forward or back and change the games and kicked the match winner in the 2006 flag. Think about Reid Playing tight in defence and then. Going forward and (hopefully) slotting a couple of majors in the 3rd before heading back to play tight in the 4th.

I wouldn't mind seeing Witts used as a second ruckman, for christs sake he's 208cm tall, wouldn't that make him like the 2nd or 3rd tallest player in the AFL? Give him a go in the ruck and maybe use him as 3rd tall, Cloke kicking from 60 to the top of the square and leave the rest to the 208cm giant. Now I know he's got heaps of work to do Witts but 208cm of brute strength in the ruck in say 5 years, now who wouldn't like the sound of that?

 

[Nicco_jj]

I would definitely prefer jolly forward than wood. L.Brown may not have been fast but he was a presence. Wood looks like a fly could knock him over. Jolly at least can peob take a genuine contested mark.

That being said, I really wouldn't mind seeing nathan brown be 3rd tall in the forward line. That way we can have a forward line player as our sub, and if taz or Reid go down you chuck brown in the back line and the sub goes forward.

Also, if we were playing a loose defender, why not play Nathan, taz and Reid? Have Reid as loose defender with taz playing on buddy and nathan on Hale or roughhead. Or have Nathan and taz just double team buddy and Reid play on hale/roughy...
I think that we could expose hawthorn in that way. It may not work against other teams... But who knows?!

Also, if brown was playing forward and was playing crap and Reid of taz were playing crap in defence we could do a cheeky switcheroo at half time; put taz or reid up forward and brown down back.


But I'm sure Buckley as a much better plan than any of this I have suggested.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

NO myth.

There were only 2 sides who figured it out or more accurately, had the skills to exploit it, Geelong and Hawthorn. We only beat Hawthorn when we abandoned the press for man on man football in the last quarter.

They both figured it out slighltly differently but used a similar principle. Geelong found that if they cut out the handball( a major reason that the press was successful against them) and kicked more that resulting marks could not be tackled, rendering the 'press' ineffective.

They also kicked the ball in zig zag fashion in defence but when they pierced through they went long and direct to their forwards. Therefore exploiting the weakness of the press, no cover when a side gets through it.

Hawthorn's idea was to keep possession through short passes. Once again, if the player marks, you cannot tackle them. This method was less effective because they could not move the ball to the forwards as quickly as the Cats due to over possession.

The press is still going to be effective, but against the really skilled sides by foot, it has its weaknesses.

Go watch the first half of the West Coast Geelong game during the year.

That first half was Prelim 2010 all over again.

The press still works. We just haven't used it in it's 2010 form since the GF 2010.

 

[ksardog]

Leigh Brown was rubbish when it mattered last year. When Jolly was down on fitness we needed him to step up and he couldnt.

In the meantime Cameron Wood, our only form ruckman, was left to wallow in the VFL.

Wood should be our first choice ruckman this year. Jolly is a goalkicker so he can spend a lot of time there. We also have one of Reid/Brown/Tarrant to play the third tall role, along with Goldsack.

The other four are still in development and whilst some will get senior games, Wood and Jolly should be our first choices.

Could not have said it any better re Wood

 

[kevind]

Go watch the first half of the West Coast Geelong game during the year.

That first half was Prelim 2010 all over again.

The press still works. We just haven't used it in it's 2010 form since the GF 2010.

It was basically an irrelevant game.

WCE fell over the line against an injury riddled Carlton in a home final and were belted by Geelong a week later, so their forward press was not that impressive come finals.

If we want to win premierships, maybe the forward press is not going to get us there again????

It certainly didn't help us beat Geelong last year. As I said earlier, sides with good kicking skills worked out how to beat the press. Those 2 sides Hawthorn and Geelong will be formidable this year as well. So I can't see Nathan Buckley sittting down and saying MIcky Malthouse's forward press is exactly what we need.