No Oppo Supporters The Umpiring thread.

[sportsmaniac89]

I think this is a great idea for a thread and I also believe this should be a No Opposition Supporters thread for the simple reason that we don't need morons from other teams especially Eagles supporters (apologies to the decent Eagles fans that have posted here).

As to the topic at hand, I have been saying since 2014 that Leigh Fisher should not be umpiring Freo games whatsoever. Delisted twice by Ross Lyon, it's human nature to have some resentment in that regard unless it is suggested that Fisher has been brainwashed to forget his playing career. Given there is no brainwashing technology that can do that as yet, this has the perceptions of conflict of interest. Fisher's performances in Freo games suggests that he still has resentment so to be quite frank and honest, he should not be umpiring Freo games.

With regards to the umpiring as a collective last night, it's the same issues that I have been unhappy with for the last 10 years minimum.

To pick out a couple of examples

Sam Mitchell's one-handed throw - right in front of the umpire and not called. Why? That was as clear as day and night.

Marking contests - slight taps to the head.....free kick West Coast for marking interference. Freo players get hit in the head, no free kick.

Holding the ball (more specifically the Fyfe one) - The ball was actually pinged to him and he had no prior opportunity but let's ping him anywhere. What that also doesn't excuse is the reason for no prior is that he is being held and grappled even before he gets the ball (which last I checked is free kick for holding the man)

Different interpretations for teams respective 50m arc - The Eagles got at least 7 shots at goal from free kicks/50m penalties last night. A slight hold and down they went like a sack of potatoes. For a Freo player to get a free kick inside 50, we have to suffer potentially life threatening decapitation and even then, there is a reluctance to give us a free kick.

50m penalities. That 50m penalty for going over the mark (can't remember who it was) was so wrong last night. He moved side to side and was actually behind the mark at the time so being pinged for that was an absolute indictment (of course it gave the Eagles a goal).

Overall, the umpiring was a diabolical disgrace but the additional problem is this:

Because you have sooks like Alan Richardson and the Victorian media going that the Perth teams get looked after substantially at home, you have the umpires now trying to prove that isn't the case. The problem is that West Coast get looked after at home; Freo on the other hand have been shafted with the last two weeks being a lesson in shafting that will never be forgotten.

Round 5 vs North - North got 7 goals (out of 9) from umpiring interference, Freo got 2.
Round 6 vs Eagles - Eagles got at least 5 goals (out of 16) from umpiring interference, Freo got 0.

At the end of the day, we as a club have to rise above the substandard umpiring that we routinely cop but at the same time, we as a club have to stand up and go public against these repeated injustices. The problem is, no-one will do that and that actually disappoints me the most. Stand up for the club publicly for once. It would show that we won't take this nonsense any longer.

 

[downthecorridor]

How do you prove that it's nothing to do with AFL corruption or predetermined outcomes in games? Who is making sure that the game is fair?

I like the umpires adviser. He gets on to chat about a few decisions every week and I have no doubts about his integrity. I have known three WAFL umpires quite well and I have no doubts as to their integrity.

But I think the systems that the AFL have set in place do not protect the integrity of the game sufficiently.

The statistical analysis that I linked on page 1 should have sent alarm bells ringing across the industry. West Coast get a consistent and unfair advantage at home. We all know about Leigh Fisher's record umpiring Ross Lyon coached games. How come the AFL allow him to umpire Fremantle games? I know the umpires coaches concentrate on making sure they don't give incorrect frees, but there appears to be little or no emphasis on the number of missed frees.

I think the answer is to spend more money on the umpiring department. Make it a full time occupation that pays as well as the average AFL player. Use data to improve the rate of correct decision making and do what you can to encourage good umpires to make a career out of umpiring. And avoid any hint of bias by keeping them from umpiring games with a perceived conflict of interest.

Clem I think your last point is absolutely valid and something I've been saying before and especially since the AFL signed the $2.5 billion tv deal in 2015.

How can the AFL and the clubs be spending tens of millions on facilities, technology, GWS/gold coast/women's league etc. And not have fulltime professional umpires?

Why would any of us expect an increase in standards and consistency when umpires need to have a second career to support their umpiring career? Why can't the AFL pay say 20 umpires a full time salary of between $70k to $200k for the best ones? Say $5m including salaries travel etc. AFL is one of the toughest sports to umpire in the world and the game is so hugely influenced by probably 200 to 300 hundred decisions a game of which 100 are highly subjective?

It's simply a joke and would be laughed at by any officials of any other professional competition in the world. Until this is fixed, I think complaining about the current standard of umpiring is unwarranted and unfair.

 

[Clems Knee]

It's simply a joke and would be laughed at by any officials of any other professional competition in the world. Until this is fixed, I think complaining about the current standard of umpiring is unwarranted and unfair.

I would say the only way to get a career structure for umpires is to complain about the current standard of umpiring.
I would also say that when I watch the replays, the umpires usually get more right than I do at the game, and I don't think I'm the most one eyed of supporters.
But sometimes there are games when the errors are obvious and the umpires are clearly having a poor game. And there are times like the first quarter at the derby when the errors are all in one direction.

Finally, I would say that other professional competitions in the world have similar or bigger problems than the AFL, but I don't give a stuff about them.

 

[Nolo180]

From memory statistically we get a rougher trot from L. Farmer than the rest so it could of been worse lol. But who would u drop out of Margetts, Dagliesh & Fisher to squeeze him in? Maybe make Margetts the emergency. I think he has actually mellowed the last couple of years and doesnt give us the whole shaft anymore...

 

[youmewe]

...
How can the AFL and the clubs be spending tens of millions on facilities, technology, GWS/gold coast/women's league etc. And not have fulltime professional umpires?

Why would any of us expect an increase in standards and consistency when umpires need to have a second career to support their umpiring career? Why can't the AFL pay say 20 umpires a full time salary of between $70k to $200k for the best ones? Say $5m including salaries travel etc. AFL is one of the toughest sports to umpire in the world and the game is so hugely influenced by probably 200 to 300 hundred decisions a game of which 100 are highly subjective?

It's simply a joke and would be laughed at by any officials of any other professional competition in the world. Until this is fixed, I think complaining about the current standard of umpiring is unwarranted and unfair.

What if I told you some umpires are already earning $150+k per annum?
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/pay-rise-for-afl-umpires-20121207-2b0qg.html

 

[ydraw]

Na I haven't. I personally think that was the worst I've seen. Wasn't so much the free kicks that we're paid, but the ones that weren't. Jack Darling had 3 shots at goal at half time and all of them were from Free Kicks, they get given shots on goal for absolutely nothing.The umpiring wasn't the reason we lost the game, but it certainly played a part.

The umpiring was the reason the game was over at 1/4 time. A fairly umpired game, we might still have been in with a chance. But the umpires put the result beyond doubt.

The difference between the teams at 1/4 time was 3-4 goals, but the actual scoreline was 7 goals, due to the umpiring. 3-4 goals is a deficit you could come back from. 7 goals is game over.

 

[Clems Knee]

What if I told you some umpires are already earning $150+k per annum?
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/pay-rise-for-afl-umpires-20121207-2b0qg.html

Thanks for the link.

$150,000 sounds like a lot, but that's with all bonuses for being one of three umpires who officiates in all finals including the Grand Final.
This is footy, where teenagers get $100 000 before they have shown anything. The industry is dependent on having good umpires just as much as it is good players.

I think there should be a two tier career structure: $80,000 + game payments for part time umpires prepared to train after work and educate themselves and $150,000 + game payments for full time umpires prepared to commit to a full time career in umpiring, with more time spent on honing their craft and helping to educate part time and lower level umpires. This would encourage a career path for umpires.

 

[Rob]

This one comes to mind. Eddie was commentating and counting every free kick as it was 13-0 at one stage and 24-6 at 3/4 time.

I raise you 3 years ago in Geelong. We got deadset fisted.

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/2014/080920140809.html

Stevic and Pannell, funnily enough.

 

[wayToGo_]

I did find the tweet they quoted in the Sunday Times today quite funny:


What is it with famous Fremantle surnames being associated with West Coast supporters? Is Margett's wife's surname Fyfe?

 

[youmewe]

I did find the tweet they quoted in the Sunday Times today quite funny:


What is it with famous Fremantle surnames being associated with West Coast supporters? Is Margett's wife's surname Fyfe?

I'm not sure if you were joking, but as a matter of fact it is. Catrina Fyfe.
http://www.communitynews.com.au/the...ts-takes-charge-of-stepdaughters-junior-game/

 

[PurpleEyes]

According to my data regarding umpires of (more than 5) Freo games since the start of 2013 season;
(NB: Free Kicks attributed to each umpire are total game free kicks.)

Freo's worst umpires;
#9 Stevic: 14 Games, 13 negative (ie. more frees against than for). A total Free Kick differential tally for those 14 games of -83.
#18 Chamberlain: 9 Games, 8 negative, total FK Diff -53.
#3 Fisher: 11 Games, 8 negative, total FK Diff -48.
#26 Dalgleish: 26 Games, 16 negative, total FK Diff -46.
#8 Rosebury: 16 Games, 13 negative, total FK Diff -28.
#30 McInerney: 13 Games, 10 negative, total FK Diff -25.
#1 Donlon: 7 Games, 6 negative, total FK Diff -21.

Freo's best umpires;
#16 Hosking: 8 Games, 6 positive (ie. more Frees for than against), total FK Diff +37.
#15 Nicholls: 7 Games, 5 positive, total FK Diff +18.
#23 Findlay: 10 Games, 6 positive, total FK Diff +12.

 

[ImperialPurple]

I have long said that Stevic is the worst against us.

And just the mere fact that there is such a discrepancy suggests that something has to be done to either a) eliminate the bias certain umpires show towards / against particular teams, or b) make the bloody game easier to officiate so that there are fewer subjective rules open to interpretation.

(Option c is to petition the AFL to have this umpire Hosking every game... so long as they don't balance that out with Stevic, Razor Ray or Fisher).

 

[mightymouse75]

All valid points. But we have talking about this crap for years. Nothing gets done.

 

[Purple Jesus]

I did find the tweet they quoted in the Sunday Times today quite funny:


What is it with famous Fremantle surnames being associated with West Coast supporters? Is Margett's wife's surname Fyfe?

Funnily enough, she teaches most of the journos and young TV/radio people you'll see on air in Perth.

 

[Proud SJW]

Umpiring inconsistency is no doubt a blight on the game. It is partly influenced by incompetence/lack of professionalism and training, and partly influenced by what are no doubt instructions given to watch out for certain players or certain teams that are doing x.y.z. It has nothing to do with AFL corruption or predetermined outcomes in games.
It's embarrassing how many people we have on here that believe the latter nonetheless. A couple of them are complete crackpots that I am not allowed to call out because I get infraction points for doing so. But most of you are otherwise sane people - I don't get it.

The AFL has taken measures to ensure the umpires are protected, and consistently refuse to even acknowledge a problem exists - the reasons for that, I've discussed before, but in a nutshell it would be due to a large extent to there not being many umpires available to officiate high-level games.

They are a rare species, in effect. And therefore protected. The AFL would not want to discourage people from wanting to become umpires. You'll see the same thing in any authoritative body; police, army, political parties, religious groups, whoever - no one wants to throw their own to the dogs.
The AFL is a business concern, and relies almost completely upon entertainment and reputation to make money. Any stain upon that reputation will hinder that to one degree or another, and they'll make the best effort they can to ensure their reputation isn't sullied. That includes gagging club officials or players from making any comments on the situation.

The problem with the AFL, though, is that there doesn't appear to be any action being taken behind the scenes, either - start fining an umpire his match fees for "improper conduct", and you'd see a result fairly quickly. They're willing to do that with club officials, coaches, players, pretty much anyone - but never the umpires.

Given the lack of action, or even to acknowledge the issues the data clearly show, the AFL is complicit by default. That's the "conspiracy" that most people are probably commenting on.

The other thing to consider that your average sports fan is an average Joe who'd rarely be described as a big thinker. He'll only pay attention when it involves his own club, usually... and that leaves the fans of 17 other clubs who either don't give a damn, or (as we see so often) make a huge joke of giving the opposition shit about it. It's not happening to them, so they don't care - or actively enjoy it.
For every one fan who posts here with the data showing there is a problem, there are a hundred more who think no more of it after a quick conversation around the water-cooler... which is promptly forgotten 10 minutes later.

The AFL has tacit support from it's own fans in making it a non-issue. And it knows that. It's a business. It is very much aware of its customers, and how they think - or rather, don't think. The AFL knows the people who make money for it as well as the supermarket who puts the milk right down the very back of the store.

About the only thing which is going to prompt any action is active, co-operative attention being given to the problem. Which wont happen, because AFL fans are, in the main, very much like those few eagles fans who've come in here and elsewhere for no other reason than to have a laugh at someone else's expense. It's an appalling attitude, but it's also as common as sand.

The AFL doesn't need to do a damned thing, and it knows it.

 

[StingBitten]

Okay so there have been some melts over the umpiring in the review threads, particularly after the first quarter of the Derby and the first half of the Fremantle v North Melbourne game.

Righteo has suggested that there be a separate thread on umpiring decisions and bias so the review threads don't get clogged up with them.


So here goes.


I think the AFL has a problem with the quality of its umpiring. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

They do all they can to limit the commentary on umpires, by fining coaches and players who say anything and by the accreditation system for the media. And they do this because umpires are essential to the competition and they need to be protected, and because all fans, coaches and players look at the game with a partisan eye.

But by stopping any discussion, the AFL is turning a blind eye to the problems that have developed in umpiring.


Here are the problems as I see it:


1. Allowing Umpires with clear conflicts of interest

2. Possibility of gambling syndicates fixing matches through umpiring bias

3. Umpires making too many (honest) mistakes -

a) not being good by paying free kicks incorrectly, or​

b) missing free kicks that should have been paid.​

4. Difficulty in introducing new interpretations and rules.


I think that 4) is the only problem being dealt with loudly in the media. And it's the only one that settles down with time. 3a) gets talked about a bit, but the rest are ignored.


I'll ask two questions. If an umpire was involved in match fixing for a gambling syndicate, what would it look like? If an umpire was biased because of his past allegiances, what would it look like?

I think it would like the first quarter of the derby, or the first half of the North Melbourne game.

I wish you had been my teacher, Clems.

 

[Scham]

From memory statistically we get a rougher trot from L. Farmer than the rest so it could of been worse lol. But who would u drop out of Margetts, Dagliesh & Fisher to squeeze him in? Maybe make Margetts the emergency. I think he has actually mellowed the last couple of years and doesnt give us the whole shaft anymore...

Margetts was very good (by his standards) in the Bulldogs game a few weeks ago, but against his beloved team it's a different story.

 

[Freo88]

Majority of umpires don't want to go full time/professional as they earn more in their part time jobs than they do umpiring. You'd be surprised the amount of business acumen amongst the umpiring fraternity. Some umpires are very well off working in such industry's as investment banking.

 

[sportsmaniac89]

Best.thread.ever.

If you've come here to laugh and mock like several of your "friends" have already, go back to your team's board.

 

[Harry Reems]

Best.thread.ever.

Biggest.Flog.Ever

 

[ilikepotatoes]

There were some shocking calls in the game but the Fyfe holding the ball was 100% correct. Didn't make an effort to dispose of the ball and tried to fend off 3 tacklers.

The Yeo non holding the ball, Kennedy ducking x2, the free against Fyfe for high contact after Kersten's second goal, the non free kick to Crozier for holding and the 50 against Spurr were absolutely shocking decisions off the top of my head.

Non the less our kick it to McGovern first half meant we weren't a chance for a win regardless.

It's irrelevant but I genuinely believe players who duck like Kennedy did should be reported. They are putting their lives at risk; really silly play that could break a neck. Be bloody unfair for the tackler to have to live with that.

 

[KO_KO]

As an Eagles supporter, that 1st half was embarrassing. At least 4 goals from the umps. Couldn't believe the non htb decision on Kennedy.

 

[Freo Dr]

Ilikepotaoes sums it up. I was ok with basically all of the free kicks paid against us (although various were overly technical and not 100% about the lee spurr 50m penalty) BUT it was the non decisions the other way that irked me the most as this it made it hugely inconsistent.

AFL has just got a massive boost in funding form TV rights, would like to see that money put into increasing the pool and quality of umpires. Conbsider getting umpires to not umpire in their home state for teams they supported as kids. Maybe another option would be video review - when blatantly obvious non-decisions are made (maybe because the umpire is blind sided) the video ref can call down to stop play and award the free. Do not want it happening often but just get rid of the shockers like the non free kick for HTB on Yeo at least.

 

[Clems Knee]

Ilikepotaoes sums it up. I was ok with basically all of the free kicks paid against us (although various were overly technical and not 100% about the lee spurr 50m penalty) BUT it was the non decisions the other way that irked me the most as this it made it hugely inconsistent.

AFL has just got a massive boost in funding form TV rights, would like to see that money put into increasing the pool and quality of umpires. Conbsider getting umpires to not umpire in their home state for teams they supported as kids. Maybe another option would be video review - when blatantly obvious non-decisions are made (maybe because the umpire is blind sided) the video ref can call down to stop play and award the free. Do not want it happening often but just get rid of the shockers like the non free kick for HTB on Yeo at least.

I agree with the non decisions being the biggest problem.
I also agree with some of the measures to boost umpire quality - interstate games, avoid potential conflicts of interest, extra money...

I dont like the idea of video reviews of decisions. They are likely to slow down the game until it looks like American Football, and we are still relying on an impartial video ref. Video reviews of points and goals are okay because the game has already stopped at that stage. But if you are talking about a fourth umpire looking on the screen - well if he can be as quick as the other umpires, that is fine.

 

[PurpleEyes]

I don't see Video reviews for decisions as a working solution.

Have you ever watched Whistle Blowers on the AFL where the umpires are questioned on some of their more dubious decisions? Very rarely will they acknowledge that they got a decision incorrect. And when they do, it seems to be more of a political apology most often given for the larger Vic supporter based club decisions. They can do this, because many of our football decisions are somewhat subjective and our laws of football sometimes lack detail. eg. what is prior opportunity? How many seconds is it?

I don't see the AFL changing and scrutinising umpiring in any real manner when they are quite happy with the way it is.
I reckon they like knowing they can use it to help give the competition a push in the direction they want it to go. Whether that is by changing rules and interpretations to speed the game up or by appointing certain umpires in the finals to assist the Bulldogs win a premiership in 2016 or to ensure that the Eagles who are so closely aligned to the Western Australia media money are looked after a little extra.

As a supporter of Freo, I will just continue to call a spade a spade when I see it. I don't really care if I'm labelled a sore loser whiner or a conspiracy theorist because those posts come from people that haven't spent even a tenth of the time I have on analysing replays, decisions and historical free kick data. Nor do they realise that I was most vocal about the umpiring in 2015 when Freo were winning games. In 2015, in the first six rounds of the season, I was quite amazed with just how good Freo was getting it from the umpires (especially the R2 GE win and R6 ES wins). But then with a 6-0 win loss record, there was a dramatic change. For the rest of the season, Freo appeared to be on the receiving end of some horrible umpiring. Now with the data I have, I'm very confident that the umpires were requested to make it hard for Freo. At the time, the AFL media was all over Freo regarding how Ross Lyon's coaching style was bad for the game and how Freo couldn't win the premiership without scoring 100points+. And for the record, from R7 to the end of the 2015 season, Freo played 18 games and won the Free Kick tally in only 2 of those (BL & GWS at Subi) 286 Frees For vs 363 Frees Against.