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The Vent Thread

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pax, now you've just gone and confused me. That's just not fair. :( Not that hard mind you. :p

I thought KK would have been #2 (or 3?) hand?

AA, AK suited, KK?
 

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http://kevingong.com/Math/KKPreflop.html

Suggests calling with pot-odds of 1.54 holding KK v unknown. Struggles against AA obviously, and KK.

*newsflash* Was this your point re auto-calling Pax? That it would only be done (correctly) if a player had AA or KK? Hence I was at best a coin toss?

Reading through it, sounds a LOT tighter than the games I'm usually part of. I've seen plenty of all-ins on AK off (and much, much worse).

Wouldn't players playing 'looser' increase the likelihood of them going all-in with poorer hands? (and hence better odds of calling).

Someone who plays more than me (and obviously at much higher levels) would generally see much better, stronger (possibly even consistent) play - so the results would follow the maths more closely you would think.

Is that a fair comment? Or am I way off-track?
 
mdc said:
AK off-suit is ahead as well, because it can make two flushes. Like, say, you have A diamonds, K clubs, you can win with both a diamond flush and a club flush. So that beats KK as well.
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Actually any hand containing an ace is ahead of KK, cos obv if an ace flops then KK has only two outs.
 
Simon_Nesbit said:
Suggests 9/9 is better than A/K.

Is this because it's looking in hands in isolation (ie against every possible hand), rather than in the hands a 'typical' player would play?
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Sorry, I just assumed that when you asked how many hands beat KK preflop you couldn't possibly have been serious. There are six possible pairs of aces, and these are the only hands which are in front of KK preflop. But isn't that kind of obvious? I mean if you have to ask that question, you probably need to ask how much money you are going to lose playing poker. It's not as if you just started playing yesterdsay, is it? Alternatively go buy a book like Small Stakes Holdem, read it really thoroughly and come back to us.

Preflop probabilities are not totally straightforward, because it depends how many opponents see the flop. Any pair is a slight favourite heads up over any two overcards (e.g 22 vs AK) - the probabilities vary from about 50.5-49.5 to 55-45.

The reason AK is generally regarded as stronger than 22, is that there is a roughly 33% chance of pairing the ace or king on the flop and about 49% of doing so by the river making for a pretty strong top pair top kicker hand. This means that AK plays pretty well in multi-way pots since it will pull ahead of most hands on a favourable flop and can be dumped otherwise. Small pairs do not play well multi-way, except for the possibility of hitting a set on the flop (i.e you need to get in cheap enough preflop in the hope of winning a big stack postflop). Large pairs are strong because they have showdown value even if they don't hit the flop.

That's all I'm going to say on this. You really need to go away and read a book or two.
 
Phew. I thought I'd completely missed the plot. Thanks Pax. Ricket's threw me with his comment.

Lets all point and laugh at SN. :o

(normal venting service can now resume). :D
 
mdc said:
AK off-suit is ahead as well, because it can make two flushes. Like, say, you have A diamonds, K clubs, you can win with both a diamond flush and a club flush. So that beats KK as well.
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Don't forget all the split pots between KK and any other pocket pair, as they all have only two outs to hit a set.
 

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The reason I consider AK a better hand then pocket pair (except for AA and KK of course) is that against any pocket pair from 22 to QQ the AK has a 45% chance of winning. Also raising with 99 and seeing a few higher cards on the flop you are never confident.
 
SolidTiger said:
The reason I consider AK a better hand then pocket pair (except for AA and KK of course) is that against any pocket pair from 22 to QQ the AK has a 45% chance of winning. Also raising with 99 and seeing a few higher cards on the flop you are never confident.
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It goes both ways though. If you raise AK and the flop comes 8 high, you don't know where you stand. If the villain has 99 or 87 you are behind but he could easily have KQ or AJ.
 
paxmaniac said:
It goes both ways though. If you raise AK and the flop comes 8 high, you don't know where you stand. If the villain has 99 or 87 you are behind but he could easily have KQ or AJ.
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That is why if I don't hit with the flop I tend to put a feeler bet out with AK. If they call or raise I know they have something good on the flop. Also if they have a mid pocket pair in their hand with a few over cards on the board they would likely to fold once you bet even if I didn't hit myself.

I don't just bet to win the pot I also bet to get information.
 
SolidTiger said:
That is why if I don't hit with the flop I tend to put a feeler bet out with AK. If they call or raise I know they have something good on the flop. Also if they have a mid pocket pair in their hand with a few over cards on the board they would likely to fold once you bet even if I didn't hit myself.

I don't just bet to win the pot I also bet to get information.
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It's a very similar situation with medium pockets and an overcard (or two) on board. You obviously have to bet most of the time, and may need to slow down if you don't take it down. Out of position, both hands are very hard to play. In position is much easier because you can often check behind on the turn and call some river bets.

By the way, smart players will be floating or raising your "feeler" bet with a very wide range of hands including made hands, draws and complete bluffs. You don't "know they have something good" necessarily if they call or raise.
 

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paxmaniac said:
It's a very similar situation with medium pockets and an overcard (or two) on board. You obviously have to bet most of the time, and may need to slow down if you don't take it down. Out of position, both hands are very hard to play. In position is much easier because you can often check behind on the turn and call some river bets.

By the way, smart players will be floating or raising your "feeler" bet with a very wide range of hands including made hands, draws and complete bluffs. You don't "know they have something good" necessarily if they call or raise.
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You are correct. For the feeler bets I always bet the same as if I always hit something. That way it will leave my opponent guessing.
 
I deal left handed, but i'm right handed :p.

As it is there are quite a lot of things i'll do left handed, probably cos i was born left handed but my parents didnt want such scum in our house so they changed me :)
 
Ricketts said:
I deal left handed, but i'm right handed :p.

As it is there are quite a lot of things i'll do left handed, probably cos i was born left handed but my parents didnt want such scum in our house so they changed me :)
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What if I were to tell you that Jimmy was left handed...
 
This is a big reflection on my playing I think.

Small cash table (2c/5c) I go All-in with pocket Aces. (I'm short-stacked - I always am, but it's about 8x blind after a bet/call beforehand)

I get called by what I consider a 'good' player - (I've come accross him a couple of times, he's always way up in the daily winnings, etc).

He turns over 9/10 off.

Whilst he had me easily covered chips wise, I can't see any way you'd call any sort of bet with that hand. I hadn't been stealing many pots (maybe 2 or 3 in 30 minutes play), and it was only my second all-in of the session.

Of course two 10s came up on the board, and he won ending my night, but would anyone else have called that?
 

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