The war against renewable energy

[Power Raid]

Further evidence of Tesla being a marketing wet dream as opposed to a quality company.

As for the issues in QLD, a paywall blocks my access to your article. But in Vic all solar installations are required to be signed off by an inspector before they are energised. QLD does not have this rule.

It's not fool proof in Vic either, a lot of inspectors will just pull up to the property, give a quick glance, and then collect their $200 fee without doing all necessary testing.

But hey, any electrical work involves a fire risk if the components are faulty or the installation workmanship is not sound.

The EV will be a wonderful thing but Tesla probably won't be around in a decade. They are a con merchants company.

Guess how many batteries they have made? Zip, none, zilch.


The batteries they sold SA were car batteries, that were bought by Telsa from Panasonic, for cars Telsa were unable to build. They will never be able to compete with established manufacturers, china and india if all they can do is assemble.

 

[FireKrakouer]

The EV will be a wonderful thing but Tesla probably won't be around in a decade. They are a con merchants company.

Guess how many batteries they have made? Zip, none, zilch.


The batteries they sold SA were car batteries, that were bought by Telsa from Panasonic, for cars Telsa were unable to build. They will never be able to compete with established manufacturers, china and india if all they can do is assemble.

Yup. They build up support from social media and the public, get massive government cash thrown at them, then supply a product that is either built by someone else, or is s**t (sometimes both).

But this is common practise. There are very few genuine backup battery manufacturers out there. I have sold many "SolaX" batteries that are actually rebranded LG ones. They are sold cheaper than LG as the enclosure does not have the same IP rating (ie it is less water/dust resistant).

There's still a very niche lithium market.

 

[Generalissimo]

That's a bit misleading given that Panasonic actually produces cells for Tesla on-site at Tesla's Gigafactory1. It's not as though they just put in orders with Panasonic and have them ship the cells in from Japan.

 

[Kwality]

In the real world, looking for a lower power bill, understanding rooftop solar:
There’s a lot of fear-mongering about how the rise of renewables threatens our power grids, but a real problem getting real attention from the industry is how voltage rises on our mostly old and inflexible infrastructure stops customers from getting the most out of their solar PV installations.

Anyone who’s trained in this stuff already knows this of course, but I’d guess most consumers don’t realise the relationship between the voltage at the inverter and the voltage on the grid is very important. When things go wrong, the customer gets a bill showing far less electricity shipped to the grid than they expected, and someone – a solar installer, an electricity retailer, or a network – gets an angry phone call.

Grid Voltage Rise Is Getting Worse And That's A Problem For Solar Owners

Discover what voltage rise is, why it happens, why it causes problems for solar power system owners and what some networks are doing to address it.

www.solarquotes.com.au

 

[Kwality]

so many ill informed posters in this thread. Great that I have found it. Thanks for the laughs.

Its a bit hard for the lay person to take the spin off both sides of the PR campaigns, the political types, the enthusiasts that occupy the noise around the issues. Must be great to be able to see thru it, many think they know, do you?

 

[FireKrakouer]

In the real world, looking for a lower power bill, understanding rooftop solar:
There’s a lot of fear-mongering about how the rise of renewables threatens our power grids, but a real problem getting real attention from the industry is how voltage rises on our mostly old and inflexible infrastructure stops customers from getting the most out of their solar PV installations.

Anyone who’s trained in this stuff already knows this of course, but I’d guess most consumers don’t realise the relationship between the voltage at the inverter and the voltage on the grid is very important. When things go wrong, the customer gets a bill showing far less electricity shipped to the grid than they expected, and someone – a solar installer, an electricity retailer, or a network – gets an angry phone call.

Grid Voltage Rise Is Getting Worse And That's A Problem For Solar Owners

Discover what voltage rise is, why it happens, why it causes problems for solar power system owners and what some networks are doing to address it.

www.solarquotes.com.au

Voltage rise is a major issue moving forward. It can be largely resolved with transformer upgrades, but these cost a fortune and neither the distributor companies nor the government are putting their hands up to pay.

Areas like Phillip Island, that are essentially on an "extension cord" from the main grid, suffer in particular. When it is bright during the day, thousands of solar inverters on Phillip Island and the surrounding area start pushing the grid voltage higher. This can occasionally cause it to exceed 255V, at which point all inverters shut down automatically and no more solar power is produced. It could effect other electronic devices too.

The catch 22 is that if Ausnet tap their transformers to a lower voltage, then they get the opposite problem at night with devices failing from under-voltage as there is no rise caused by solar.

Not unfixable, but just another one of those issues/costs many aren't aware of.

 

[Kwality]

Voltage rise is a major issue moving forward. It can be largely resolved with transformer upgrades, but these cost a fortune and neither the distributor companies nor the government are putting their hands up to pay.

Areas like Phillip Island, that are essentially on an "extension cord" from the main grid, suffer in particular. When it is bright during the day, thousands of solar inverters on Phillip Island and the surrounding area start pushing the grid voltage higher. This can occasionally cause it to exceed 255V, at which point all inverters shut down automatically and no more solar power is produced. It could effect other electronic devices too.

The catch 22 is that if Ausnet tap their transformers to a lower voltage, then they get the opposite problem at night with devices failing from under-voltage as there is no rise caused by solar.

Not unfixable, but just another one of those issues/costs many aren't aware of.

Too many people only interested in pushing their own barrow.
Its cheaper, its bull dust says I paying the latest power bill & thats a comment on the industry not the power source.

 

[Frank Bunn]

The EV will be a wonderful thing but Tesla probably won't be around in a decade. They are a con merchants company.

Guess how many batteries they have made? Zip, none, zilch.

The batteries they sold SA were car batteries, that were bought by Telsa from Panasonic, for cars Telsa were unable to build. They will never be able to compete with established manufacturers, china and india if all they can do is assemble.

By the time you include mining and processing the lithium, cobalt, and manganese used for battery production a Tesla Model 3 releases between 156 and 181 grams of CO2 per km.

A Mercedes C220d sedan releases about 141 grams of carbon dioxide per km driven, including the carbon emitted to drill, refine, and transport its fuel.

 

[Power Raid]

That's a bit misleading given that Panasonic actually produces cells for Tesla on-site at Tesla's Gigafactory1. It's not as though they just put in orders with Panasonic and have them ship the cells in from Japan.

LG getting a gig now

 

[Generalissimo]

Again, probably going to be produced on site at Gigafactory 3 in China.

And it looks very much as though Tesla will begin their own production in the not-too-distant future.

Tesla all but confirms it's going to make own battery cells with new Maxwell tech

Elon Musk hinted, or really all but confirmed, that Tesla is getting into producing its own battery cells using its...

electrek.co

 

[FireKrakouer]

By the time you include mining and processing the lithium, cobalt, and manganese used for battery production a Tesla Model 3 releases between 156 and 181 grams of CO2 per km.

A Mercedes C220d sedan releases about 141 grams of carbon dioxide per km driven, including the carbon emitted to drill, refine, and transport its fuel.

A very valid point, and shows how important it is for people to do their homework before making purchases.

However, the counter-argument is that when people buy Teslas or other EVs, they are investing money into the industry, which can be used by companies like Tesla for R and D to produce greener and more efficient technologies.

Battery tech is the future, be it for smart devices, household backup, vehicles etc.

 

[DieLard]

A very valid point, and shows how important it is for people to do their homework before making purchases.

However, the counter-argument is that when people buy Teslas or other EVs, they are investing money into the industry, which can be used by companies like Tesla for R and D to produce greener and more efficient technologies.

Battery tech is the future, be it for smart devices, household backup, vehicles etc.

Good point that lot of people miss, same as production of wind turbines and the years spent to match the reduction of the co2 needed to produce

 

[SizeMatters]

Its a bit hard for the lay person to take the spin off both sides of the PR campaigns, the political types, the enthusiasts that occupy the noise around the issues. Must be great to be able to see thru it, many think they know, do you?

Yes.

 

[Frank Bunn]

A very valid point, and shows how important it is for people to do their homework before making purchases.

However, the counter-argument is that when people buy Teslas or other EVs, they are investing money into the industry, which can be used by companies like Tesla for R and D to produce greener and more efficient technologies.

Battery tech is the future, be it for smart devices, household backup, vehicles etc.

It's not clear that electric cars will be the way forward when they face huge practicality issues, and total emissions are greater than petrol and diesel vehicles.

The UK Science and Technology Select Committee found that “In the long-term, widespread personal vehicle ownership does not appear to be compatible with significant decarbonisation".

It's another example where this religious-like obsession with decreasing carbon dioxide from the environment will only be possible by - either radical new fuel sources such as nuclear - or dramatically lowering our standards of living to somewhere like the middle ages.

 

[FireKrakouer]

It's not clear that electric cars will be the way forward when they face huge practicality issues, and total emissions are greater than petrol and diesel vehicles.

The UK Science and Technology Select Committee found that “In the long-term, widespread personal vehicle ownership does not appear to be compatible with significant decarbonisation".

It's another example where this religious-like obsession with decreasing carbon dioxide from the environment will only be possible by - either radical new fuel sources such as nuclear - or dramatically lowering our standards of living to somewhere like the middle ages.

Early solar panels took more carbon to produce than what they would ever offset. Modern panels pay back their carbon debt within 1.5 years, and have warranties for 25 years+. Similar occurred with wind turbines. Similar will also occur with EVs.

What are the "huge practicality issues"?

I know very little about hydrogen technology or any other potential competitors to EVs. But I imagine they have practicality issues also.

Some of the new experimental battery chemistries (non-lithium) sound very promising. Higher energy density, 3-minute charging etc. Battery tech has improved so much just in the past 5 years (and come down so far in cost) and this trend will improve IMO.

 

[Generalissimo]

There's some interesting stuff being done with Perovskite solar cells. They're still a little way away from being commercially feasible, but I'm more confident about them in the medium term than I was six months ago.

Can surface treatments enable commercial perovskite solar cells? – Physics World

Progress towards tackling the instability of perovskites fuels hope for their future commercialization

physicsworld.com

 

[Kwality]

Modern panels pay back their carbon debt within 1.5 years, and have warranties for 25 years+

Not across the carbon debt but the $ investment might turn out to be for nought?

Some reports seem to suggest 25 months is a big ask:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-27/

australias-obsession-with-cheap-solar-derailing-market-insiders/11139856

Its not just Aussies being tight arssed:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-

walmart-tesla-solar-lawsuit-factbox/factbox-walmart-and-tesla-fought-in-private-long-before-solar-lawsuit-idUSKCN1VC1EH

 

[FireKrakouer]

Not across the carbon debt but the $ investment might turn out to be for nought?

Some reports seem to suggest 25 months is a big ask:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-27/

australias-obsession-with-cheap-solar-derailing-market-insiders/11139856

Its not just Aussies being tight arssed:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-

walmart-tesla-solar-lawsuit-factbox/factbox-walmart-and-tesla-fought-in-private-long-before-solar-lawsuit-idUSKCN1VC1EH

Your links haven't formatted and I can't access the articles through them on mobile. But if there is any suggestion that residential solar is not worthwhile economically in Australia, that is complete rubbish (assuming one has ample unshaded roof space facing the necessary direction).

There are s**t companies around, including Tesla. That does not mean the industry or technology in question is a dud.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

Your links haven't formatted and I can't access the articles through them on mobile. But if there is any suggestion that residential solar is not worthwhile economically in Australia, that is complete rubbish (assuming one has ample unshaded roof space facing the necessary direction).

There are s**t companies around, including Tesla. That does not mean the industry or technology in question is a dud.

It's sad you even have to say this. I mean, what the * else do you do with your roof?

 

[Kwality]

Your links haven't formatted and I can't access the articles through them on mobile. But if there is any suggestion that residential solar is not worthwhile economically in Australia, that is complete rubbish (assuming one has ample unshaded roof space facing the necessary direction).

There are s**t companies around, including Tesla. That does not mean the industry or technology in question is a dud.

More like a 'be careful' message - deal with reputable people , not canning anything.

 

[Power Raid]

A very valid point, and shows how important it is for people to do their homework before making purchases.

However, the counter-argument is that when people buy Teslas or other EVs, they are investing money into the industry, which can be used by companies like Tesla for R and D to produce greener and more efficient technologies.

Battery tech is the future, be it for smart devices, household backup, vehicles etc.

Part of the challenge is the battery but a big challenge is the energy source. This part of the problem has been solved and will only get better in time.

Diesel has 50% of the CO2 per kwhr of the German grid. Solve this issue and the EV goes from a good idea to a positive solution to CO2.

 

[Frank Bunn]

What are the "huge practicality issues"?

There's very few public charging points and it takes some time to charge. You can't just replace petrol stations with charging points. It only takes a minute or two to fill your petrol tank but it takes at least 20 minutes to half charge a Tesla and over an hour if you want a full charge. Teslas are very expensive. A more affordable car such as a Nissan Leaf can only go 130 km on a full charge and even less with the air conditioning or heat turned on. These cars are practical for commuting, but useless for long drives. Public charging stations would have to be 50 to 100 bays deep instead of between 4 and 12.

Home charging could be the answer for some but not all. They are expensive and many people don't have access to off street parking and just have to grab the nearest spot to where they live.

Where is the massive increase in demand for electricity for vehicles going to come from? China leads the way with EVs but two-thirds of Chinese electricity is produced from coal. That means shifting from a petrol or diesel car to an EV simply adds to coal demand. It would be the same in Australia.

At the moment it's a pipe dream.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

There's very few public charging points and it takes some time to charge. You can't just replace petrol stations with charging points. It only takes a minute or two to fill your petrol tank but it takes at least 20 minutes to half charge a Tesla and over an hour if you want a full charge. Teslas are very expensive. A more affordable car such as a Nissan Leaf can only go 130 km on a full charge and even less with the air conditioning or heat turned on. These cars are practical for commuting, but useless for long drives. Public charging stations would have to be 50 to 100 bays deep instead of between 4 and 12.

Home charging could be the answer for some but not all. They are expensive and many people don't have access to off street parking and just have to grab the nearest spot to where they live.

Where is the massive increase in demand for electricity for vehicles going to come from? China leads the way with EVs but two-thirds of Chinese electricity is produced from coal. That means shifting from a petrol or diesel car to an EV simply adds to coal demand. It would be the same in Australia.

At the moment it's a pipe dream.

I love this part of the debate on electric cars. I didn't realise that so many people parked on the street and drove from Melbourne to Sydney every weekend.

I mean *, I hate Tesla's as much as anybody because they're boring, glorified golf carts that suck all the fun out of driving unless you're a bench racing thrillrider, but they would fit the purpose of 80% of people's daily commutes. So would the leaf and it's a lot cheaper too.

 

[Generalissimo]

Nuclear power not the answer as renewables continue to boom, report finds

Australia's continuing renewable energy boom means the development of nuclear power is not a viable option, a new report from public policy think-tank the Australia Institute concludes.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Sainteric]

Pumped hydro storage can be done with existing dams and utilising old mine sites,it can also be done by building storage reservoirs on hill tops and pumping and releasing sea water.
No new rivers need to be damned
Pumped hydro is only 1 storage solution for renewables,solar thermal, battery and Hydrogen are a few other ones

None of its big enough in Tassie and where it is it would destroy rivers