The war against renewable energy

[Pessimistic]

Also down to the house or business premises.

Use solar to keep the house cool or warm during the day, then when everyone arrives home at 6pm, no need for a huge surge on the grid. Using the interior atmosphere as your battery

Not to mention post pandemic a lot of people are spending more daytime at home

I looked at pre and post pandemic, our electricity use hardly changed despite still mainly wfh. It was the gas for heating which went up rapidly

Haven’t gone solar yet. Probably will when replacing gas heating with reverse cycle. But I have FOBR fear of being ripped.

 

[swingdog]

Also down to the house or business premises.

Use solar to keep the house cool or warm during the day, then when everyone arrives home at 6pm, no need for a huge surge on the grid. Using the interior atmosphere as your battery

Not to mention post pandemic a lot of people are spending more daytime at home

I looked at pre and post pandemic, our electricity use hardly changed despite still mainly wfh. It was the gas for heating which went up rapidly

Haven’t gone solar yet. Probably will when replacing gas heating with reverse cycle. But I have FOBR fear of being ripped.

Are you in Melbourne? Let me know when you do, have had some good dealings with some and avoided the cowboys (though the latter are fewer as the industry has matured).

 

[Baltimore Jack]

So this is now the head in the sand stage of climate denial?

They genuinely amaze me and most of them are hypocrites as they rush to buy EV's and install solar roof top panels

 

[sonofafrank]

I don't think you have any idea how the investment analysis field works.

Of course there will be winners and losers; the devil is in the detail, and plenty of fools people rushing in to snap up shares in anything with the word "green" in front of it will most likely get badly burnt.

But if the weight of the overall market, long term, is moving out of fossil fuels and into renewables - which it is, well only a fool would call that "snake oil".

Says the bloke thinking thinking green technology works and is about the environment!
It’s about making money and putting the term green in front of it apparently makes it green!
That’s it dude

 

[sonofafrank]

I'd be less cynical with anti renewable energy claims if they didn't all seem to come from the same people who until embarrassingly recent times would tell us climate change didn't exist or wasn't a problem.

The renewables are failing! Period!
To even think renewables solar, wind etc is about the environment is laughable considering the amount of land destroyed to gather the material required to build and maintain the product and where the product is dumped after its short life span.

To think it’s the best technology available to be used is even more an example how little any one even understands renewables despite pointing the fingers attempting to act intelligent and mock others

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Says the bloke thinking thinking green technology works and is about the environment!
It’s about making money and putting the term green in front of it apparently makes it green!
That’s it dude

I don't think you understood a single word of my post.

Of course there is an element of popular sentiment at play. Some of the people now rushing in to buy up green stocks would be the same idiots who rushed into crypto.

But the reason the broader market is switching out of fossil fuels and into renewables is because that is the long term reality, not merely of the market, but of the world.

If you can't get your head around the two terms I italicised, there's no point even discussing with you. Bye.

 

[sonofafrank]

My point is we wouldn’t need Capitalism if we were all sustainable… all self sufficient, there would be nothing to trade.
I’m not arguing what is better.
The present system relies on manipulating scarcity and creating peoples needs.
Ultimately capitalism is doomed … unless we can successfully move the system to other planets .

Our current planet is infinite.
Capitalism relies on continued growth.

And you’d consider your self a leftist and

no

but I am developing and commercialising a technology with nuclear engineers, to process minerals using extremely high tesla magnets. Some really strange and wonderful things happen. We operate at circa 10 times industry standards with the target to go closer 100x.

we have already produced 99.9999% HPA and 99.999% HPQ but aim to enrich strategic and critical minerals without nasty chemicals.

Imagine Olympic Dam being cleaned up, all that red mud from bauxite, coal waste and even solar panels. Fingers crossed.

If there is money to be made yes. If not it would be ignored like all the toxic waste from renewables

 

[Gough]

So now we have the green energy isn't really green stage of climate denial. You guys really have had more positions than a cheap whore on this issue for over the last twenty years.

 

[sonofafrank]

So now we have the green energy isn't really green stage of climate denial. You guys really have had more positions than a cheap whore on this issue for over the last twenty years.

All you have is childish little names.
We are speaking about the basics of renewables technology here not the climate.

The base materials required to manufacture solar, wind turbines or batteries. The need to dig them from the ground on a mass scale, you’d think damage the environment as well on a large scale?

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Subsidies to the Fossil Fuel Industry in 2020-2021 = $11.6 Billion

They are making record profits and are still draining money from the public purse

 

[swingdog]

Useful summary of the arguments around gas, especially the trope that if we don't supply it someone else will supply dirty coal:

Facts must rise above the gas if Australia is to deal with the climate crisis | Adam Morton

In a political system long captured by fossil fuel interests, there is a disconnect between the arguments and the evidence

www.theguardian.com

 

[dockerfemme]

Useful summary of the arguments around gas, especially the trope that if we don't supply it someone else will supply dirty coal:

Facts must rise above the gas if Australia is to deal with the climate crisis | Adam Morton

In a political system long captured by fossil fuel interests, there is a disconnect between the arguments and the evidence

www.theguardian.com

The increased prices for fossil fuels brought on by reduced production and the Ukraine Russia war is making everything expensive, energy obviously in all its forms, food and other things. This, in turn, makes it more expensive to do the necessary work to reduce emissions. There has also been short term closures of high energy use factories etc in Australia, Europe and the UK when they cannot afford to operate.

I think the chances of significant civil unrest in Europe and the UK are high due to the above, and the same thing in Australia could follow. There will also be local unrest due to people not wanting transmission towers etc.

I think all this could significantly undermine advancement on emissions reduction and needs to be considered and managed. The world needs to ensure there is sufficient fossil fuels to keep things operating acceptably, while working on emissions reduction.

 

[sonofafrank]

The increased prices for fossil fuels brought on by reduced production and the Ukraine Russia war is making everything expensive, energy obviously in all its forms, food and other things. This, in turn, makes it more expensive to do the necessary work to reduce emissions. There has also been short term closures of high energy use factories etc in Australia, Europe and the UK when they cannot afford to operate.

I think the chances of significant civil unrest in Europe and the UK are high due to the above, and the same thing in Australia could follow. There will also be local unrest due to people not wanting transmission towers etc.

I think all this could significantly undermine advancement on emissions reduction and needs to be considered and managed. The world needs to ensure there is sufficient fossil fuels to keep things operating acceptably, while working on emissions reduction.

The sky rocketing energy prices have been happening long before the Russia Ukrainian war.
It’s due to renewables not being up to standed! Period!
simple happening in Australia, Europe, UK etc

 

[swingdog]

Interesting shift in the home solar market with consumers reportedly wanting larger and larger systems, to reduce their grid dependence and as part of anticipated demand from EVs and home electrification.

I wonder about the grid dependence argument in some states such as Tasmania (already 100% renewables) and South Australia (going to hit it by 2025). Maybe rooftop solar growth rates will slow in those areas?

"Cover the whole roof:" Home solar systems are getting much bigger, here's why - One Step Off The Grid

Rooftop solar systems are getting bigger, shifting the average system size from 6.6kW to north of 8kW for Australian households. What's behind the trend?

onestepoffthegrid.com.au

 

[Carringbush2010]

All you have is childish little names.
We are speaking about the basics of renewables technology here not the climate.

The base materials required to manufacture solar, wind turbines or batteries. The need to dig them from the ground on a mass scale, you’d think damage the environment as well on a large scale?

Yes we've already established that we need to dig to source the material, like every other manufactured thing, like the computer or phone you're keying words on.

All emission intensive, however the difference is that resourcing materials for renewable energy vs non renewable energy.

'Hmm, not sure which one to choose' - Well it's a no brainer, you'd pick the renewables for obvious reasons.

Yes there's question marks on do we have enough material to scale and how emission intensive is it to resource it all, if we have it all.

What we do know, is that it's resourcing for something that can be used over and over instead of just once like coal. Realities like this are driving the market toward renewable energy.

Your rhetoric does sound like 'it's not worth doin coz ya still gotta dig it up, and it's emission intensive and we don't have enough' - well it's worth doin the diggin coz we're diggin anyway so may as well dig for energy that is reused more than just once.

 

[Kwality]

Useful summary of the arguments around gas, especially the trope that if we don't supply it someone else will supply dirty coal:

Facts must rise above the gas if Australia is to deal with the climate crisis | Adam Morton

In a political system long captured by fossil fuel interests, there is a disconnect between the arguments and the evidence

www.theguardian.com

CHINA:
China dominates the production of many critical minerals vital for the green revolution. The BP Statistical Review of World Energy shows it was the main driver of solar and wind capacity growth in 2021 (36 per cent and 40 per cent, respectively.) However, fossil fuels accounted for 82 per cent of primary energy use globally and China remains the biggest global emitter by far. It emits more greenhouse gas than the entire developed world, according to research by Rhodium Group.

China is the world’s biggest producer and consumer of coal. It is responsible for roughly a third of global emissions. It uses five times as much coal as India and six times that of the US. Global Energy Monitor reported that in 2021, more than half of the world’s newly commissioned coal activity occurred in China.

The BP Statistical Review of World Energy shows China and India accounted for more than 70 per cent of the growth in coal demand in 2021 and much of the increase in production, which was mostly used domestically. The International Energy Agency states coal demand in China increased by 4.6 per cent last year to reach an all-time high of 4230 Mt.

And there is little sign China is committed to reducing emissions. China Dialogue reported on National Bureau of Statistics figures showing that this year, it mined 2.19 billion tonnes of coal between January and June, an increase of 11 per cent year on year.

The IEA reported in March that while CO2 emissions on a per capita basis fell to an average of 8.2 tonnes in advanced economies, it was 8.4 tonnes in China.

There is good reason for China to shun emissions targets that would require it to give up coal. The energy produced is cheap, reliable and plentiful. China has 1118 coal-fired power stations in operation according to data compiled by Global Energy Monitor. The US has 225. Australia has only 19, but if you hooked on the Greens’ hysteria, you would think we were burning up the planet.

Reliable domestic coal supply gives China the great advantage of energy independence. Its ready access to fuel reserves and nuclear energy powers its rise as a formidable military force.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/democracies-green-new-deals-help-fuel-beijing-belligerence/news-story/61ab02e2f9858b8af6b3366ddfbc762d

 

[Carringbush2010]

Interesting shift in the home solar market with consumers reportedly wanting larger and larger systems, to reduce their grid dependence and as part of anticipated demand from EVs and home electrification.

I wonder about the grid dependence argument in some states such as Tasmania (already 100% renewables) and South Australia (going to hit it by 2025). Maybe rooftop solar growth rates will slow in those areas?

"Cover the whole roof:" Home solar systems are getting much bigger, here's why - One Step Off The Grid

Rooftop solar systems are getting bigger, shifting the average system size from 6.6kW to north of 8kW for Australian households. What's behind the trend?

onestepoffthegrid.com.au

Yep this is the way it's gonna go, you watch energy companies branching out as private and commercial customer solar panel installers (if not already), in a few years when the whole globe will head this way - we'll find out if we have enough to scale (for the planet) and how much *more emission intensive it will be, if it all.

*It'll force resource companies into resourcing materials for renewables, and we'll see a shift of what is being resourced.

The problem Aus has is that customers like China and India are and will into the future likely source fossil fuels for their coal and gas fired plants (if that is correct idk). We'll continue to be seen as a climate pariah just coz we export it.

However, as there are many nuclear sites around the world that may be restarted (idk) and some in the process of being built, we're likely to be a major merchant of uranium and thorium. In short a likely increase of nuclear material exporting, but of course this'll be tumbleweeds coz it's exporting for renewable energy i:e not news.

 

[Carringbush2010]

CHINA:
China dominates the production of many critical minerals vital for the green revolution. The BP Statistical Review of World Energy shows it was the main driver of solar and wind capacity growth in 2021 (36 per cent and 40 per cent, respectively.) However, fossil fuels accounted for 82 per cent of primary energy use globally and China remains the biggest global emitter by far. It emits more greenhouse gas than the entire developed world, according to research by Rhodium Group.

China is the world’s biggest producer and consumer of coal. It is responsible for roughly a third of global emissions. It uses five times as much coal as India and six times that of the US. Global Energy Monitor reported that in 2021, more than half of the world’s newly commissioned coal activity occurred in China.

The BP Statistical Review of World Energy shows China and India accounted for more than 70 per cent of the growth in coal demand in 2021 and much of the increase in production, which was mostly used domestically. The International Energy Agency states coal demand in China increased by 4.6 per cent last year to reach an all-time high of 4230 Mt.

And there is little sign China is committed to reducing emissions. China Dialogue reported on National Bureau of Statistics figures showing that this year, it mined 2.19 billion tonnes of coal between January and June, an increase of 11 per cent year on year.

The IEA reported in March that while CO2 emissions on a per capita basis fell to an average of 8.2 tonnes in advanced economies, it was 8.4 tonnes in China.

There is good reason for China to shun emissions targets that would require it to give up coal. The energy produced is cheap, reliable and plentiful. China has 1118 coal-fired power stations in operation according to data compiled by Global Energy Monitor. The US has 225. Australia has only 19, but if you hooked on the Greens’ hysteria, you would think we were burning up the planet.

Reliable domestic coal supply gives China the great advantage of energy independence. Its ready access to fuel reserves and nuclear energy powers its rise as a formidable military force.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/democracies-green-new-deals-help-fuel-beijing-belligerence/news-story/61ab02e2f9858b8af6b3366ddfbc762d

Coz it's the Australian, this will be considered moot.

 

[Kwality]

Coz it's the Australian, this will be considered moot.

Certainly by those in denial that without China, Russia & India, the whole basis of dealing with the climate catastrophe is moot, in fact more like a fraud.

The numbers around coal fired power stations are inconvenient, thus ignored.
The numbers around our coal exports are inconvenient, thus ignored.

 

[Footonddit]

Coz it's the Australian, this will be considered moot.

I especially like how they tacked on nuclear at the end there. Nothing against nuclear but it's amusing how Dutton and co lineup perfectly with the garbage Murdoch editorialize about.

Certainly by those in denial that without China, Russia & India, the whole basis of dealing with the climate catastrophe is moot, in fact more like a fraud.

The numbers around coal fired power stations are inconvenient, thus ignored.
The numbers around our coal exports are inconvenient, thus ignored.

Agree about nothing meaningful happening whilst China/Russia/India/US continue to pollute but the benefit of renewables is cheap energy. Also you really should add the US to the three other countries you rag about when criticizing climate inaction otherwise it comes across as biased.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Certainly by those in denial that without China, Russia & India, the whole basis of dealing with the climate catastrophe is moot, in fact more like a fraud.

The numbers around coal fired power stations are inconvenient, thus ignored.
The numbers around our coal exports are inconvenient, thus ignored.

Don't disagree, however, in oz, we're goin the way of the solar panel and wind farm - that's the way the market is shifting.

And because the big polluters aren't goin to do the righty doesn't mean we should not either, the market will shift in this country regardless. Not coz 'it's the righty' it's coz the market is shifting that way.

I've seen something somewhere linked that we do have enough resource here is oz to satisfy the local market i:e we can transition >here< to make the change. I expect the next few years we'll see accelerated transmission >here<. And that doesn't matter coz the market is gonna level out from fossil to renewable.

Again, all that is moot as the big polluters won't do zip, as climate change is not just a local problem.

Sure, there'll casualties of the workforce, I expect that to be minimum. If companies that now produce energy from fossil are smart they'll already be looking at transitioning their workforce to renewable produced skills.

Again, we'll continue to export coal and gas to those who wanna buy it, the big polluters. By the same token we'll probably export nuclear fuels like uranium and thorium as the demand will rise, not to mention other resources to manufacture renewables.

 

[sonofafrank]

Yes we've already established that we need to dig to source the material, like every other manufactured thing, like the computer or phone you're keying words on.

All emission intensive, however the difference is that resourcing materials for renewable energy vs non renewable energy.

'Hmm, not sure which one to choose' - Well it's a no brainer, you'd pick the renewables for obvious reasons.

Yes there's question marks on do we have enough material to scale and how emission intensive is it to resource it all, if we have it all.

What we do know, is that it's resourcing for something that can be used over and over instead of just once like coal. Realities like this are driving the market toward renewable energy.

Your rhetoric does sound like 'it's not worth doin coz ya still gotta dig it up, and it's emission intensive and we don't have enough' - well it's worth doin the diggin coz we're diggin anyway so may as well dig for energy that is reused more than just once.

A major material required to make solar and turbines is coal you know? Coal next to oil is one of the most versatile product used in society to manufacture things!


So on top of that the endless mass distruction of land and Pollution of water ways and land isn’t classed as a large contributor to damaging the environment?

China, Russia, SE Asia so on are building hundreds of coal fired power plants as we speak whilst renewables are failing, Europe, UK, USA & Australia, sky rocketing bills and failing to Lee up with demand

And no renewables do not get recycled. The toxic materials cannot be recycled and end up in lane fill

Solar panels only have a lifespan of 10-25 years. So what happens to them once they expire?

Solar panels are considered to be an environmentally friendly way to make electricity. But most only last a decade and then end up in landfill, despite being recyclable.

www.abc.net.au

Gizmodo | The Future Is Here

Dive into cutting-edge tech, reviews and the latest trends with the expert team at Gizmodo. Your ultimate source for all things tech.

www.gizmodo.com.au

 

[sonofafrank]

Subsidies to the Fossil Fuel Industry in 2020-2021 = $11.6 Billion

They are making record profits and are still draining money from the public purse

Based on figures from where?

You do understand the basics of business, assert, plant etc?

from a home handyman, pot plant, to mine site, any business gets to depreciate things off tax

Then they can always set up off shore business! That the Hawke and Keating government established

 

[Kwality]

I especially like how they tacked on nuclear at the end there. Nothing against nuclear but it's amusing how Dutton and co lineup perfectly with the garbage Murdoch editorialize about.



Agree about nothing meaningful happening whilst China/Russia/India/US continue to pollute but the benefit of renewables is cheap energy. Also you really should add the US to the three other countries you rag about when criticizing climate inaction otherwise it comes across as biased.

All the #s/%s chucked about that equal a climate catastrophe are nonsense, yet we are saving the world according to some.

When the end is nigh, some slip off & pray, others kid themselves ...

 

[Kwality]

Don't disagree, however, in oz, we're goin the way of the solar panel and wind farm - that's the way the market is shifting.

And because the big polluters aren't goin to do the righty doesn't mean we should not either, the market will shift in this country regardless. Not coz 'it's the righty' it's coz the market is shifting that way.

I've seen something somewhere linked that we do have enough resource here is oz to satisfy the local market i:e we can transition >here< to make the change. I expect the next few years we'll see accelerated transmission >here<. And that doesn't matter coz the market is gonna level out from fossil to renewable.

Again, all that is moot as the big polluters won't do zip, as climate change is not just a local problem.

Sure, there'll casualties of the workforce, I expect that to be minimum. If companies that now produce energy from fossil are smart they'll already be looking at transitioning their workforce to renewable produced skills.

Again, we'll continue to export coal and gas to those who wanna buy it, the big polluters. By the same token we'll probably export nuclear fuels like uranium and thorium as the demand will rise, not to mention other resources to manufacture renewables.

The problem for renewables is it can not demostrate 24/7 reliable power needed for industry/jobs & lifestyle. Plenty of white board action & words.