This false dawn is gonna hurt the most

[tunksy]

The thud will be heard in Brazil.

I sure hope Benny is already on the blower to Paul Roos.

yep starting to be inclined this way too, lyon would've been fantastic. midfield not deep enough, isnt defensive enough. forward setup clumsy.

 

[Mr Magic]

yep starting to be inclined this way too, lyon would've been fantastic. midfield not deep enough, isnt defensive enough. forward setup clumsy.

Lyon would destroy us. In 3-4 years Essendon will be a cross between the saints now and North and we should be like Gold Coast charging up but far more advanced banging down the premiership door


btw, lets see how he goes at Freo, St Kilda was a failure

 

[Rayzorwire]

Did we get beaten by GWS or Melb did we?

Nope, we got beaten by a side we've won two of our last three games against who are in a world of trouble with the drugs investigation, playing a horribly ugly, gutless brand of football which yielded us nine goals for an entire game.

Our coach has admitted he doesn't know why we couldn't get into the game, get anything working for us or why we scored so lowly. Outcoached, plain and simple. Back to the review again and try to work out what actually happened. Unless Hardwick can master time travel and start going back to game day after he's worked out what went wrong by the following Tuesday, we're clearly in deep shit and signed on to it for this season and the next.

Of course people feel peeved, t_o_o, opposition coaches are playing us like a fiddle, it was a pathetic performance on too many levels not to feel gutted by it.

 

[sante]

Why Santa, fair dinkum mate, sometimes this board would rival the Nazi propaganda machine in WW2.

2 years ago would you really have expected the bombers to be able to have such a comfortable win against us at this stage. Same with Geelong and Collingwood.

If we don't pull our fingers out the expansion teams are coming mate.

Yes. Be realistic we still have a lot of youngsters out there who aren't near their prime. Bombers entire team is.

 

[Mr Magic]

Nope, we got beaten by a side we've won two of our last three games against who are in a world of trouble with the drugs investigation, playing a horribly ugly, gutless brand of football which yielded us nine goals for an entire game.

Our coach has admitted he doesn't know why we couldn't get into the game, get anything working for us or why we scored so lowly. Outcoached, plain and simple. Back to the review again and try to work out what actually happened. Unless Hardwick can master time travel and start going back to game day after he's worked out what went wrong by the following Tuesday, we're clearly in deep shit and signed on to it for this season and the next.

Of course people feel peeved, t_o_o, opposition coaches are playing us like a fiddle, it was a pathetic performance on too many levels not to feel gutted by it.

IMO Hardwicks D-day is next year. We are still in development, that is the bottom line, anything else is dreamland, but their are other teams ahead of us in development and list advancement that are simply stronger more mature than us like North and Essendon atm.

Us making the 8 in 2014 is a more appropriate test IMO given the age profile of our list but that isn't a certainty given our list is not pure gold, the draw, and other mature teams are fairly strong and revitalised like Geelong etc...

We need to go youth and recruit well to succeed. Eg. it will be the likes of Vlastuin , Ellis, McIntosh etc.. that propell us forward along our usual suspects to make us a stronger outfit!!


I think Dimma has done well for us to compete as strong as we have!!

Look at the North v Adelaide match , that is a maturing team on the rise against a team like Adelaide plateauing!!. North are about 1-2 years ahead of us IMO but do not have the class of some of the players we have that teams need to clinch a GF victory!!

 

[RichoLedio]

Lyon would destroy us. In 3-4 years Essendon will be a cross between the saints now and North and we should be like Gold Coast charging up but far more advanced banging down the premiership door


btw, lets see how he goes at Freo, St Kilda was a failure

A grand total of about 14 points between St Kilda being a fail and being one of the most successful teams of the millenium, pretty fine line

 

[Mr Magic]

A grand total of about 14 points between St Kilda being a fail and being one of the most successful teams of the millenium, pretty fine line

St Kilda , OMG, where not one of the most successful teams.

Are you confused with a team called Geelong??

 

[RichoLedio]

St Kilda , OMG, where not one of the most successful teams.

Are you confused with a team called Geelong??

Im saying if they had won their two grand finals which they were only a combined 14 points off of they would be rated as one of the top teams this millennium, 14 points is a fine line between failure and success for Lyon

 

[Dusty Cotch]

Just prepare yourselves.

Look at the the ladder, look at the draw, look at the way we have performed in bigger games this year.

We won even threaten finals - let alone play in them.

We should be further advanced than this

In 4 weeks we will be 8 -5. And well on our way to playing finals.

 

[Bojangles17]

Stupid thread when you consider our best players are under 23, not 33

 

[nobulltiger]

The team and coaches will re group and get things back on track, we have injuries unbalancing the team but we can still fight it out to clinch a top 8 birth to tick off the goal for this year, regardless of whether we challenge then or not. Progress is a process.

 

[RECORDS!]

Stupid thread when you consider our best players are under 23, not 33

Bo we were older than Ess on Sat night. Clutching at positivity straws.

 

[Frank Grimes]

At the moment we are bottom 8 bullies. We are better than the bottom sides and should be able to beat them. We just can't seem to beat sides which are about where we are or above us. We will need to win a few those games in order to take the next step and play finals.

The problem is that a fair portion of our playing group has gone backwards this year. If this is not addressed then it could potentially become a false dawn.

 

[docko911]

This is the problem!

We played a shit brand against Essendon, our ruckman has reverted to his previous shitness and the only decent recruitment we have done seems to be completely established players or first round draft picks.

We are following the cycle we always follow. Regardless of what anyone else thinks it always comes to a time in recent history where a Richmond coach seeks results over long term development. We now have a list that is no better than the year before with 6 new players playing who are all in some form list cloggers. While this is not entirely true it is pretty close.

Look at it this way:
- While Chaplin has been sensational for us he is 27 and we have 2 KPD Astbury and Griffiths at prime age rotting in the VFL. As a result in around 3 years we probably have none of these KPD's unless Astbury or Griffiths move up forward or we get injuries but their development is still being halted.
- Petterd playing resulted in Batchelor missing a few games. Batchelor is 10x the defender Petterd is and has better skills (for those who don't agree open your eyes) but if Petterd gets fit does Batchelor miss out again. Already lost some development for a hack who couldn't get a game at Melbourne FFS.
- Knights played really well but everyone knows he is injury prone now he probably won't play another game for us and he will be worse than he was. Him playing and taking a spot on our list has stopped the development and/or ability to pick up a young player with potential.
- A.Edwards what is he even doing on our list he is a one dimensional player who kicks goals handed to him on a platter. He is 29 and if we were to play him when Jack or McGuane or both got injured we'd be completely ****ed. He also has off field issues I mean I would have preferred to use the late pick on some 21 year old state league player like say Jack Hannath or we could have got Kommer a player who fits into our forward needs...
- Orren Stephenson ok I almost completely agree with this pickup as a genuine backup ruckman while we develop a young ruckman but hold on a second the main ruckman we are developing is tom derickx who is 25 and shithouse. Surely we could have gone for a young ruckman somewhere, McBean I don't believe is one either (although he'll probably be able to do anything).
- That leaves us with Sam Lonergan who once again is not the best player in the world and was in worse form than a young Matthew Arnot but got the nod ahead of him. Why? when another young bloke Vlastuin came in and dominated do we not try Arnot and see if he can't dominate.

That's 6 blokes, 5 if you don't count Stephenson list clogging. We aren't in a premiership year, we haven't even played finals and we are still trying to win with old players with no potential. We are going backwards while teams around us are going forwards and our best players are getting worse with poor coaching.

I also believe Houli and Grigg could be list clogging especially Grigg because he is just pure disposal shitness and slow. Houli is preventing Dea from developing even though he is good he just lacks something I think will keep him out of a team that would contend. Plus we have continued to persist with guys like Nahas, Jackson, White and McGuane. While I have stood up for McGuane, and Jackson has been better this year they really aren't the future of this football club.

IMO we haven't really done a whole lot of recruiting since Hardwick came into the club. We have only drafted these players in AFL and preseason drafts;

2009 - Dustin Martin (best 22), Benjamin Griffiths (reserve), David Astbury (reserve), Matthew Dea (reserve), Troy Taylor (fail), Jeromey Webberley (fail), Ben Nason (fail), Dylan Grimes (best 22)
*Trade in Mitch Farmer (fail)
2010 - Reece Conca (best 22), Jake Batchelor (best 22 IMO), Brad Helbig (reserve), Dean Macdonald (fail), Tom Derickx (listed failure), Bachar Houli (best 22 but only for now).
*Trade in Shaun Grigg (playing best 22 but doesn't deserve to be there)
2011 - Brandon Ellis (best 22), Todd Elton (reserve), Matthew Arnot (reserve), Brett O'Hanlon (reserve).
*Trade Steven Morris (best 22), Ivan Maric (thought he was best 22 but he is reverting back to spudness.
2012 - Nick Vlastuin (best 22), Kamdyn McIntosh (reserve), Liam McBean (reserve), Matthew McDonough (reserve).
*Trade in Aaron Edwards (reserve, old and a complete waste)
Free Agents - Troy Chaplin (good but only has 3-4 years left), Chris Knights (good but can't stay healthy).
*Rookies - Stephenson (Mature Backup ruckman), Lonergan and Petterd (backups but playing instead of rookies).

In terms of the draft we have managed to:
- Pick up 7 players currently in our best 22 including 4 first round picks, a second round pick, a rookie draft pick and a recycled player who could be pushed out.
- Pick up 10 players currently playing VFL with half with little AFL experience.
- Pick up 5 failures

We have not drafted one rookie who is AFL capable, except for this year with the players who are recycled and not really the future.

It's a bit poor to think in 4 years we have only drafted 5.5 players on average and have only found 7 players legitimately capable of playing AFL. Add Morris to that list and we average 2 best 22 players per year. We'll have a complete team in 11 years but that excludes quality backups.

I know this is a lot of bagging but the reality stinks, even when we have meant to be focusing on recruiting and rebuilding we have failed compared to many other clubs. We need to start again by adding 6+ players per year to our list until it is strong to player 35 with only 5 or so players in early development and some rookies.

 

[Tigers_fan24]

Look at the draw and we can win 8 of the next 10. We've lost to 4 of the best teams in the comp. we have beaten the team we were mean to beat and if we continue we can make the 8. Beat the eagles next week who are poor at the moment, and we head into he bye at 6-4. Then we play Adelaide, dogs and saints. Can eaisy be 9-4 and firmly entrenched In the 8. Then north and gc. If we are gonna play finals we'll win those games. The. Freo, Sydney, hawks brisbane, Carl, GWS and dons.

When you look and see that 13-14 wins gets you in 8, there are plenty of wins waiting.

Eagles? poor? they just smashed GWS by 100. I'd like to see us do that

 

[nobulltiger]

This is the problem!

We played a shit brand against Essendon, our ruckman has reverted to his previous shitness and the only decent recruitment we have done seems to be completely established players or first round draft picks.

We are following the cycle we always follow. Regardless of what anyone else thinks it always comes to a time in recent history where a Richmond coach seeks results over long term development. We now have a list that is no better than the year before with 6 new players playing who are all in some form list cloggers. While this is not entirely true it is pretty close.

Look at it this way:
- While Chaplin has been sensational for us he is 27 and we have 2 KPD Astbury and Griffiths at prime age rotting in the VFL. As a result in around 3 years we probably have none of these KPD's unless Astbury or Griffiths move up forward or we get injuries but their development is still being halted.
- Petterd playing resulted in Batchelor missing a few games. Batchelor is 10x the defender Petterd is and has better skills (for those who don't agree open your eyes) but if Petterd gets fit does Batchelor miss out again. Already lost some development for a hack who couldn't get a game at Melbourne FFS.
- Knights played really well but everyone knows he is injury prone now he probably won't play another game for us and he will be worse than he was. Him playing and taking a spot on our list has stopped the development and/or ability to pick up a young player with potential.
- A.Edwards what is he even doing on our list he is a one dimensional player who kicks goals handed to him on a platter. He is 29 and if we were to play him when Jack or McGuane or both got injured we'd be completely screwed. He also has off field issues I mean I would have preferred to use the late pick on some 21 year old state league player like say Jack Hannath or we could have got Kommer a player who fits into our forward needs...
- Orren Stephenson ok I almost completely agree with this pickup as a genuine backup ruckman while we develop a young ruckman but hold on a second the main ruckman we are developing is tom derickx who is 25 and shithouse. Surely we could have gone for a young ruckman somewhere, McBean I don't believe is one either (although he'll probably be able to do anything).
- That leaves us with Sam Lonergan who once again is not the best player in the world and was in worse form than a young Matthew Arnot but got the nod ahead of him. Why? when another young bloke Vlastuin came in and dominated do we not try Arnot and see if he can't dominate.

That's 6 blokes, 5 if you don't count Stephenson list clogging. We aren't in a premiership year, we haven't even played finals and we are still trying to win with old players with no potential. We are going backwards while teams around us are going forwards and our best players are getting worse with poor coaching.

I also believe Houli and Grigg could be list clogging especially Grigg because he is just pure disposal shitness and slow. Houli is preventing Dea from developing even though he is good he just lacks something I think will keep him out of a team that would contend. Plus we have continued to persist with guys like Nahas, Jackson, White and McGuane. While I have stood up for McGuane, and Jackson has been better this year they really aren't the future of this football club.

IMO we haven't really done a whole lot of recruiting since Hardwick came into the club. We have only drafted these players in AFL and preseason drafts;

2009 - Dustin Martin (best 22), Benjamin Griffiths (reserve), David Astbury (reserve), Matthew Dea (reserve), Troy Taylor (fail), Jeromey Webberley (fail), Ben Nason (fail), Dylan Grimes (best 22)
*Trade in Mitch Farmer (fail)
2010 - Reece Conca (best 22), Jake Batchelor (best 22 IMO), Brad Helbig (reserve), Dean Macdonald (fail), Tom Derickx (listed failure), Bachar Houli (best 22 but only for now).
*Trade in Shaun Grigg (playing best 22 but doesn't deserve to be there)
2011 - Brandon Ellis (best 22), Todd Elton (reserve), Matthew Arnot (reserve), Brett O'Hanlon (reserve).
*Trade Steven Morris (best 22), Ivan Maric (thought he was best 22 but he is reverting back to spudness.
2012 - Nick Vlastuin (best 22), Kamdyn McIntosh (reserve), Liam McBean (reserve), Matthew McDonough (reserve).
*Trade in Aaron Edwards (reserve, old and a complete waste)
Free Agents - Troy Chaplin (good but only has 3-4 years left), Chris Knights (good but can't stay healthy).
*Rookies - Stephenson (Mature Backup ruckman), Lonergan and Petterd (backups but playing instead of rookies).

In terms of the draft we have managed to:
- Pick up 7 players currently in our best 22 including 4 first round picks, a second round pick, a rookie draft pick and a recycled player who could be pushed out.
- Pick up 10 players currently playing VFL with half with little AFL experience.
- Pick up 5 failures

We have not drafted one rookie who is AFL capable, except for this year with the players who are recycled and not really the future.

It's a bit poor to think in 4 years we have only drafted 5.5 players on average and have only found 7 players legitimately capable of playing AFL. Add Morris to that list and we average 2 best 22 players per year. We'll have a complete team in 11 years but that excludes quality backups.

I know this is a lot of bagging but the reality stinks, even when we have meant to be focusing on recruiting and rebuilding we have failed compared to many other clubs. We need to start again by adding 6+ players per year to our list until it is strong to player 35 with only 5 or so players in early development and some rookies.

Yes we did play a shit brand of footy against essendon.

I think Petterd and Batchelor are equal, I couldn't say one is better than the other. Both are of best 22 for us I think. Petterd was played out of position for a very long time at Melbourne, he was finding form again in his natural position until injury got him. I don't think he is a list clogger and batchelor will be better for it having him on our list competing for the same spot.

A bit harsh on Knights, he is a gun and is similar to Foley being injury prone, it was hit and miss risk that could of payed off big time. I wouldn't say it was a mistake to recruit him at all.

A bit early on A. Edwards, give the guy a chance could produce 2 years of good footy for us yet. I don't see why people here complain about his style of play, we are screaming out for jack to go on a lead, here is someone that will. Will most likely see next week vs West Coast.

Agree with Stephenson now I've seen him play a couple games, was negative at first. You may have the same reaction after seeing A edwards get a couple games.

Agree about the Lonergan selection, it's sending the wrong message to players and goes against simple logic.

The hard calls need to be made, drop a grigg or someone these are wake up calls for players and they can come back in great form. No one should be immune to being ommited, doesn't matter if you're cotch, riewoldt or deledio. Could be all the difference.

 

[Rayzorwire]

Ripper post Docko, nailed a lot of good points there.

 

[docko911]

Would you trade Deledio for a Premiership?

 

[Parquet Court]

Thought we might have been able to skip a couple of years with the young crop of talent we have. Unfortunately, brett deledio wont be apart of our next push for a premiership, it will be when Cotchin. And co are around the late 20s.

We went for a punt by getting Chaplin, knights and co and it sort of has paid off, we are 5-4, although soon to. Be 5-5. Haven't been in the negative in terms of win loss this year but I don't think we will crack a finals spot, have 9th written all of et this season

 

[tigs2010]

Would you trade Deledio for a Premiership?

Serious question or not?

 

[Bazzar]

This is the problem!

We played a shit brand against Essendon, our ruckman has reverted to his previous shitness and the only decent recruitment we have done seems to be completely established players or first round draft picks.

We are following the cycle we always follow. Regardless of what anyone else thinks it always comes to a time in recent history where a Richmond coach seeks results over long term development. We now have a list that is no better than the year before with 6 new players playing who are all in some form list cloggers. While this is not entirely true it is pretty close.

Look at it this way:
- While Chaplin has been sensational for us he is 27 and we have 2 KPD Astbury and Griffiths at prime age rotting in the VFL. As a result in around 3 years we probably have none of these KPD's unless Astbury or Griffiths move up forward or we get injuries but their development is still being halted.
- Petterd playing resulted in Batchelor missing a few games. Batchelor is 10x the defender Petterd is and has better skills (for those who don't agree open your eyes) but if Petterd gets fit does Batchelor miss out again. Already lost some development for a hack who couldn't get a game at Melbourne FFS.
- Knights played really well but everyone knows he is injury prone now he probably won't play another game for us and he will be worse than he was. Him playing and taking a spot on our list has stopped the development and/or ability to pick up a young player with potential.
- A.Edwards what is he even doing on our list he is a one dimensional player who kicks goals handed to him on a platter. He is 29 and if we were to play him when Jack or McGuane or both got injured we'd be completely screwed. He also has off field issues I mean I would have preferred to use the late pick on some 21 year old state league player like say Jack Hannath or we could have got Kommer a player who fits into our forward needs...
- Orren Stephenson ok I almost completely agree with this pickup as a genuine backup ruckman while we develop a young ruckman but hold on a second the main ruckman we are developing is tom derickx who is 25 and shithouse. Surely we could have gone for a young ruckman somewhere, McBean I don't believe is one either (although he'll probably be able to do anything).
- That leaves us with Sam Lonergan who once again is not the best player in the world and was in worse form than a young Matthew Arnot but got the nod ahead of him. Why? when another young bloke Vlastuin came in and dominated do we not try Arnot and see if he can't dominate.

That's 6 blokes, 5 if you don't count Stephenson list clogging. We aren't in a premiership year, we haven't even played finals and we are still trying to win with old players with no potential. We are going backwards while teams around us are going forwards and our best players are getting worse with poor coaching.

I also believe Houli and Grigg could be list clogging especially Grigg because he is just pure disposal shitness and slow. Houli is preventing Dea from developing even though he is good he just lacks something I think will keep him out of a team that would contend. Plus we have continued to persist with guys like Nahas, Jackson, White and McGuane. While I have stood up for McGuane, and Jackson has been better this year they really aren't the future of this football club.

IMO we haven't really done a whole lot of recruiting since Hardwick came into the club. We have only drafted these players in AFL and preseason drafts;

2009 - Dustin Martin (best 22), Benjamin Griffiths (reserve), David Astbury (reserve), Matthew Dea (reserve), Troy Taylor (fail), Jeromey Webberley (fail), Ben Nason (fail), Dylan Grimes (best 22)
*Trade in Mitch Farmer (fail)
2010 - Reece Conca (best 22), Jake Batchelor (best 22 IMO), Brad Helbig (reserve), Dean Macdonald (fail), Tom Derickx (listed failure), Bachar Houli (best 22 but only for now).
*Trade in Shaun Grigg (playing best 22 but doesn't deserve to be there)
2011 - Brandon Ellis (best 22), Todd Elton (reserve), Matthew Arnot (reserve), Brett O'Hanlon (reserve).
*Trade Steven Morris (best 22), Ivan Maric (thought he was best 22 but he is reverting back to spudness.
2012 - Nick Vlastuin (best 22), Kamdyn McIntosh (reserve), Liam McBean (reserve), Matthew McDonough (reserve).
*Trade in Aaron Edwards (reserve, old and a complete waste)
Free Agents - Troy Chaplin (good but only has 3-4 years left), Chris Knights (good but can't stay healthy).
*Rookies - Stephenson (Mature Backup ruckman), Lonergan and Petterd (backups but playing instead of rookies).

In terms of the draft we have managed to:
- Pick up 7 players currently in our best 22 including 4 first round picks, a second round pick, a rookie draft pick and a recycled player who could be pushed out.
- Pick up 10 players currently playing VFL with half with little AFL experience.
- Pick up 5 failures

We have not drafted one rookie who is AFL capable, except for this year with the players who are recycled and not really the future.

It's a bit poor to think in 4 years we have only drafted 5.5 players on average and have only found 7 players legitimately capable of playing AFL. Add Morris to that list and we average 2 best 22 players per year. We'll have a complete team in 11 years but that excludes quality backups.

I know this is a lot of bagging but the reality stinks, even when we have meant to be focusing on recruiting and rebuilding we have failed compared to many other clubs. We need to start again by adding 6+ players per year to our list until it is strong to player 35 with only 5 or so players in early development and some rookies.

A lot of effort for little substance. Still trying to work out what you were trying to say.

 

[docko911]

Serious question or not?

It was a response to ComoTigers post which now appears after mine....

Serious question though if we believe our current list is 3-5 years away from taking the next step are we better off trading the only player over 25 with currency for some decent young picks. Now I would be talking at least pick 1-3 or 2 picks 4-15 or better. The only reason would be to simply have young talent coming into the team that would be starting to hit their straps come 5 years from now instead of having an aging Brett Deledio. I personally would have trouble doing it but it could seriously be the difference between winning a flag or not considering Gold Coast and GWS.

 

[tigs2010]

It was a response to ComoTigers post which now appears after mine....

Serious question though if we believe our current list is 3-5 years away from taking the next step are we better off trading the only player over 25 with currency for some decent young picks. Now I would be talking at least pick 1-3 or 2 picks 4-15 or better. The only reason would be to simply have young talent coming into the team that would be starting to hit their straps come 5 years from now instead of having an aging Brett Deledio. I personally would have trouble doing it but it could seriously be the difference between winning a flag or not considering Gold Coast and GWS.

If it guaranteed a flag I'd do it. But then again I wanted to trade him for O'Meara and a top 5 pick. And O'Meara is a ****ing beast. Wingard was one we could have gotten with that pick 5.

 

[docko911]

A lot of effort for little substance. Still trying to work out what you were trying to say.

Plenty of substance... You just need to read between the lines a little better.

But I'll give you a hint

In 3 and a half years Hardwick has failed to develop a single player.

Our best 22 is a combination of these existing players:
Chris Newman, Brett Deledio, Trent Cotchin, Alex Rance, Jack Riewoldt, Shane Edwards, Jake King, Nathan Foley, Tyrone Vickery, Shane Tuck, Luke McGuane, Robin Nahas, Matt White and Daniel Jackson were all at Richmond before he arrived.

These top draft picks:
Martin, Conca, Batchelor, Ellis, Vlastuin
+ Grimes lucky preseason pickup.
These experienced recruits:
Houli, Grigg, Maric, Chaplin, Knights, Petterd, Stephenson, Lonergan.

The rest of the players appear to be doing the opposite of developing.

To only have one late pick or rookie pickup over the past 4 drafts in our best 22 is pretty poor development.

 

[Danog]

We played very poorly against Essendon, but get a grip.

Look at the teams ahead of us on the ladder, who will be competing with us for that 7th or 8th spot.

Adelaide:

Lost to Port Adelaide (who we beat)
Lost to Carlton (who we beat)

Carlton:

Lost to us
Lost to St Kilda (who we beat)

West Coast:

Lost to Carlton (who we beat)
Lost to Port (who we beat)

That's a couple of "8-point" games that they've lost already. Which "8-point" games have we lost so far, where we faced teams that are likely to be 7th or 8th? The answer is, we haven't. We beat Carlton, and are playing West Coast and Adelaide in our next two games.

Make no mistake. These are the season-defining games. If we lose both of those, THEN we have something to really complain about.