Time to get tuff!!

[BlueGibbs2011]

Taking an unbiased (almost hard view), which Carlton players truly have the class to play in our next premiership team? Having looked at our 1995 team, we carried 4 average players. The rest were very good if not stars of the game. Those four ok type players were Hogg, Clape, Pearce and Whitehead. They might have had a decent 1995 but overall were serviceable players. If we take a line through that team and other premiership sides since, then we can afford to carry 4-5 ok players. The rest need to be considered very good if not stars of the game.


Players I'm confident can or will be able to hold a premiership slot in 2-4 years time:

• Walker (star)
• Murphy (star)
• Gibbs (on pedigree & faith - should be a star)
• Judd (star, the moon, the whole universe )
• Fisher (very good)
• Betts (very good)
• Fevola (star)
• Thornton (very good)
• Waite (very good)
• Scotland (very good)
• Stevens (very good)
• Carrazzo (very good)
• Kreuzer (on pedigree & faith - should be a star)

Players I'm not so sure about. Remember, taking a hard line here.

• Houlahan (good...might be too harsh, prob can take one of the last spots on a prem team list.)
• K Simpson (good...lots of fans for this player yet when i do the true test and line him up against other premiership midfields, he doesnt get a guernsey, so harsh i know. I know people will have different opinions here, happy to accept them)
• R Hadley (good...this year will decide)
• S O'hAilpin (still needs to take the next step. Has done all he can so far development-wise.)

Players who are too young or have not had much AFL exposure to judge. That and the fact they are not backed up by being a No1 draft pick (pedigree) as with Gibbs, Murphy and Kruezer.

• S Hampson (hopeful he can make it but unproven)
• Grigg
• Austin
• Bower
• A O'hAilpin
• Jackson
• Jamison (hopeful he can make it but unproven)
• Browne
• Armfield
• Pfeiffer
• Edwards
• Benjamin
• Hartlett
• Anderson

Players I'm thinking aren't making the grade...that is making the grade of a premiership side, e.g. Bentick can make our side now but I doubt he would make Geelong's or WCE's premiership side - time to get tough!

• Russell
• Bentick
• Saddington
• Hackland
• Blackwell
• Cloke
• Bannister
• Wiggins

Above means we have 13 def premiership class players now. Between now and around 2009-2012, we need to find 3-5 more taking into account you can have some average/good players (around 4). Hopefully the 3rd list above of unproven Carlton players will provide 3+ more very good if not star players. That and the draft! Didnt include the rookies except Jamison as they are mostly long shots.

 

[walshy93]

Taking an unbiased (almost hard view), which Carlton players truly have the class to play in our next premiership team? Having looked at our 1995 team, we carried 4 average players. The rest were very good if not stars of the game. Those four ok type players were Hogg, Clape, Pearce and Whitehead. They might have had a decent 1995 but overall were serviceable players. If we take a line through that team and other premiership sides since, then we can afford to carry 4-5 ok players. The rest need to be considered very good if not stars of the game.


Players I'm confident can or will be able to hold a premiership slot in 2-4 years time:

• Walker (star)
• Murphy (star)
• Gibbs (on pedigree & faith - should be a star)
• Judd (star, the moon, the whole universe )
• Fisher (very good)
• Betts (very good)
• Fevola (star)
• Thornton (very good)
• Waite (very good)
• Scotland (very good)
• Stevens (very good)
• Carrazzo (very good)
• Kreuzer (on pedigree & faith - should be a star)

Players I'm not so sure about. Remember, taking a hard line here.

• Houlahan (good...might be too harsh, prob can take one of the last spots on a prem team list.)
• K Simpson (good...lots of fans for this player yet when i do the true test and line him up against other premiership midfields, he doesnt get a guernsey, so harsh i know. I know people will have different opinions here, happy to accept them)
• R Hadley (good...this year will decide)
• S O'hAilpin (still needs to take the next step. Has done all he can so far development-wise.)

Players who are too young or have not had much AFL exposure to judge. That and the fact they are not backed up by being a No1 draft pick (pedigree) as with Gibbs, Murphy and Kruezer.

• S Hampson (hopeful he can make it but unproven)
• Grigg
• Austin
• Bower
• A O'hAilpin
• Jackson
• Jamison (hopeful he can make it but unproven)
• Browne
• Armfield
• Pfeiffer
• Edwards
• Benjamin
• Hartlett
• Anderson

Players I'm thinking aren't making the grade...that is making the grade of a premiership side, e.g. Bentick can make our side now but I doubt he would make Geelong's or WCE's premiership side - time to get tough!

• Russell
• Bentick
• Saddington
• Hackland
• Blackwell
• Cloke
• Bannister
• Wiggins

Above means we have 13 def premiership class players now. Between now and around 2009-2012, we need to find 3-5 more taking into account you can have some average/good players (around 4). Hopefully the 3rd list above of unproven Carlton players will provide 3+ more very good if not star players. That and the draft! Didnt include the rookies except Jamison as they are mostly long shots.

Good post , however I wouldn't think Thornton would be in that top list, he is too small and has been rolled by opponents many times. Houlihan has been much underated, and he would almost certainly be in that top list playing on the HFF

 

[Dima]

I would argue that Russell gets one more year before we can definitely say that he doesn't make the grade. Also I would think that Houlihan makes the very good grade as well. The rest of your selections seem reasonable.

 

[thylacine60]

Tough on Simmo and Cloke otherwise nice thoughtful effort. Well done.

 

[Beloved]

Tough on Simmo and Cloke otherwise nice thoughtful effort. Well done.

Stole my comment about Simmo. I beleive he will play a very vital role in Carlton's history, somewhere along the line, wether it be he kicks the goal to put us in the finals, etc.

 

[BlueGibbs2011]

Tough on Simmo and Cloke otherwise nice thoughtful effort. Well done.

You may be right with Simmo but predominantly he is a midfielder and falls behind Judd, Stevens, Murphy, Carazzo, Walker, Gibbs (in 1-2 years) for guys runinng through the midfield. So yes, maybe he could be in a premiership squad but he has to be holding on to the last spot.

 

[BlueGibbs2011]

I would argue that Russell gets one more year before we can definitely say that he doesn't make the grade. Also I would think that Houlihan makes the very good grade as well. The rest of your selections seem reasonable.

Yeah, i might have Russell wrong. And you can expect him to fire up given it's his contract renewal year. Nothing like renewal to strengthen the backbone! He has the skills for sure, just needs the hard edge and application. For mine, this will prob be his best year.

 

[audas]

The houlihan comments are waaaaay off the mark sorry.

Again, kade has been doing it for longer than carrazzo, one break out season and ooohh ahhhhh!, 2006 we were calling for this guy to be dropped, was worse than Bentick.

Thornton IS an average player.


Your comments on Pearce are also wide. this guy was great. Bad knees.

 

[mike ockerts]

Taking an unbiased (almost hard view), which Carlton players truly have the class to play in our next premiership team? Having looked at our 1995 team, we carried 4 average players. The rest were very good if not stars of the game. Those four ok type players were Hogg, Clape, Pearce and Whitehead. They might have had a decent 1995 but overall were serviceable players. If we take a line through that team and other premiership sides since, then we can afford to carry 4-5 ok players. The rest need to be considered very good if not stars of the game.


Players I'm confident can or will be able to hold a premiership slot in 2-4 years time:

• Walker (star)
• Murphy (star)
• Gibbs (on pedigree & faith - should be a star)
• Judd (star, the moon, the whole universe )
• Fisher (very good)
• Betts (very good)
• Fevola (star)
• Thornton (very good)
• Waite (very good)
• Scotland (very good)
• Stevens (very good)
• Carrazzo (very good)
• Kreuzer (on pedigree & faith - should be a star)

Players I'm not so sure about. Remember, taking a hard line here.

• Houlahan (good...might be too harsh, prob can take one of the last spots on a prem team list.)
• K Simpson (good...lots of fans for this player yet when i do the true test and line him up against other premiership midfields, he doesnt get a guernsey, so harsh i know. I know people will have different opinions here, happy to accept them)
• R Hadley (good...this year will decide)
• S O'hAilpin (still needs to take the next step. Has done all he can so far development-wise.)

Players who are too young or have not had much AFL exposure to judge. That and the fact they are not backed up by being a No1 draft pick (pedigree) as with Gibbs, Murphy and Kruezer.

• S Hampson (hopeful he can make it but unproven)
• Grigg
• Austin
• Bower
• A O'hAilpin
• Jackson
• Jamison (hopeful he can make it but unproven)
• Browne
• Armfield
• Pfeiffer
• Edwards
• Benjamin
• Hartlett
• Anderson

Players I'm thinking aren't making the grade...that is making the grade of a premiership side, e.g. Bentick can make our side now but I doubt he would make Geelong's or WCE's premiership side - time to get tough!

• Russell
• Bentick
• Saddington
• Hackland
• Blackwell
• Cloke
• Bannister
• Wiggins

Above means we have 13 def premiership class players now. Between now and around 2009-2012, we need to find 3-5 more taking into account you can have some average/good players (around 4). Hopefully the 3rd list above of unproven Carlton players will provide 3+ more very good if not star players. That and the draft! Didnt include the rookies except Jamison as they are mostly long shots.

abit harsh on cam there i think, if he can stay injury free and show the same intensity he did before he got injured last year, then i think he can play a roll

 

[Kramer1]

I agree to a point, but I think the 1995 was a great example of a champion team rather than a team of champions.

It was the balance of the team that made it great.

We had one of the best balanced backlines to ever grace a field. The best full back going, good rebounders in Ang and Andy McKay, two solid talls in Deany and Michael Sexton.

The midfield had some cream in Diesel and Bradley, with a couple of in and under hard nuts in Ratten and Brown. Throw in a bit of youthful dash in Kouta and Campo.

Forward line built around Sticks, with honest contributors in Mil, Ricey and Earl. We just seemed to have all bases covered. I don't think their were any superstars outside of Diesel, Sticks, SOS and Bradley.

Hard to compare modern day given the youth of the team, but I think consistency is the key for me. I can't remember guys like Sexton, Dean, Hanna or McKay having too many bad games. None of them were flashy, but all delivered in their own way. The group we have now has plenty of flash and dash, but they need to harden the **** up before they can think about flags.

I seem to have rambled a bit, but thankyou for bringing up the 95 team...I hadn't thought about them in at least two weeks

 

[Dogmat]

You may be right with Simmo but predominantly he is a midfielder and falls behind Judd, Stevens, Murphy, Carazzo, Walker, Gibbs (in 1-2 years) for guys runinng through the midfield. So yes, maybe he could be in a premiership squad but he has to be holding on to the last spot.

Have been one of Simpson's biggest critics over the days ... but I'd take him over Carazzo, Walker and Gibbs at the moment in the midfield. Has shown plenty of growth the past couple seasons and his performance as captain over the last few games was one of very few highlights

I agree with you C Cloke call ... I think he is just there to fill a void until Kruezer and Hampson are ready

Houlahan is not the player who will make the difference when you are sturggling, but would be a better player in a top side given he can finish off their hard work with his polish. So at the moment, not a fan, but maybe in a better Carlton side he could contribute a little more

Thornton average at best ... this shows up how many good defenders short we are

Funny you don't include Hadlee in the top list given he has already lifted a premiership cup

 

[douls]

[*]K Simpson (good...lots of fans for this player yet when i do the true test and line him up against other premiership midfields, he doesnt get a guernsey, so harsh i know. I know people will have different opinions here, happy to accept them)

He does play on the wing, so maybe look at it that way and he's a damn good running long kicking player

 

[BlueGibbs2011]

Lots of comments on Simmo and Houlahan - all fine by me. People see different things in different players.

I think the key thing is that this is just another angle/insight in to the fact that Carlton's premiership window is still some way off. I know most of the knowledgeable people on here still think we're 2 years away from a realistic chance. I agree with that, just wanted to pont out we are short players of the right quality.

I can't remember guys like Sexton, Dean, Hanna or McKay having too many bad games.

.
This is why i added the category very good player. These guys over 5-10 years would have to be rated very good players (not stars).

The houlihan comments are waaaaay off the mark sorry.

Again, kade has been doing it for longer than carrazzo, one break out season and ooohh ahhhhh!, 2006 we were calling for this guy to be dropped, was worse than Bentick.

Thornton IS an average player.

Your comments on Pearce are also wide. this guy was great. Bad knees.

Perspective for sure. You're right, Kade has done it longer than 1 Carazzo season. Tho from another perspective, Carazzo's best this year was better than Simmo's best in the last 3 years.

I agree about Thornton, he is currently an average to good player. But perspective...He has been mostly playing on the key back when he should be third tall dfender.

Houlahan I said prob could make the team if you read closely. You cannot say that is way off the mark. He is only a good player. No independent supporter would rate him very good or a star!

 

[BlueGibbs2011]

Funny you don't include Hadlee in the top list given he has already lifted a premiership cup

Damn good point there. Gulp! Maybe I could fall back on one of my first points. You can carry 4 or so average to good players. We had Hogg in 1995, Brisbane had Hadlee. Tho I give the edge to Hadlee over Hogg.

Do you know how well Hadlee went in his premoership year? how many possies...an what was his contribution like? I saw the games but cant remember his contribution (not deriding, just Brisbane had so many other stars.)

 

[Pie_squasher]

Great effort BG2011 - on the whole I agree with most of what you've written.

Houlihan is a contentious issue but the simple fact is the guy has enormous potential but has delivered very little in the last few years. I am sure a large % of this was down to the Pagan factor and wrong positioning but I feel it is a fair comment next to him.

Simpson for me would be in the top group - feel he has shown enough and great leadership skills when required.

One thing's for sure - there are lot of people on this site that undervalue the contribution that Carazzo brings to this team. IMO he is the one of the most important players in the team - ultraconsistent - and works his ass off. Personally I feel he merits top 3 midfielder/onballer (especially after last year) - Judd, Stevens, Carazzo. He has also worked hard on his disposal which was one of his weak points - can't ask for anymore than that. Just hope he has another blinder this year!!!!

 

[blues4flag]

I'd definitely have Simpson in that top group before Carrots. I agree with Cloke though - just can't see him being at the club long term.

 

[Pie_squasher]

The houlihan comments are waaaaay off the mark sorry.

Again, kade has been doing it for longer than carrazzo, one break out season and ooohh ahhhhh!, 2006 we were calling for this guy to be dropped, was worse than Bentick.

Thornton IS an average player.


Your comments on Pearce are also wide. this guy was great. Bad knees.

The Houlihan comments are fair!!!

Carazzo is a gun - been very consistent.

Thornton is a very important player but needs support

Pearce was the equivaemnt of a one-hit wonder. He was hopeless over his head but excelled on the lead, at ground level and was quick. Team around him made him look a lot better than what he was.

 

[thylacine60]

The houlihan comments are waaaaay off the mark sorry.

Again, kade has been doing it for longer than carrazzo, one break out season and ooohh ahhhhh!, 2006 we were calling for this guy to be dropped, was worse than Bentick.

Thornton IS an average player.


Your comments on Pearce are also wide. this guy was great. Bad knees.

And bad ponytail. Did he ever stop fiddling with it?

 

[blue gunslinger]

Betts - had a lot of potential and has not lived up to MY expecations but am confident he will turn it around this year (or his carreer may be in trouble) - don't take this personally eddiebetts fans!
Simmo- I think you under value him! Firstly think he stepped in as captain extremely well in very tough situation to do so. And even with the added burden played very well
Cloke- Before his injury I thought he was fitting in very well considering he had just joined us and with a lot of pressure with the family name , Pies influence and subsequent transfer. If he can stay on the park he will be a great asset up forward, in the middle and out back!

 

[BlueGibbs2011]

Simmo- I think you under value him! Firstly think he stepped in as captain extremely well in very tough situation to do so. And even with the added burden played very well

I'm seeing a lot of love for Simmo right now. Is there anyone out there,....anyone who thinks Simmo is just ok/good? Or does everyone think he is a gun!

If there are no naysayers i'll have to update him into premiership quality. I can take it, I've been wrong plenty of times before. But i'll bookmark this page and come back in twelve months. See where he is at!

 

[blue gunslinger]

I'm seeing a lot of love for Simmo right now. Is there anyone out there,....anyone who thinks Simmo is just ok/good? Or does everyone think he is a gun!

If there are no naysayers i'll have to update him into premiership quality. I can take it, I've been wrong plenty of times before. But i'll bookmark this page and come back in twelve months. See where he is at!

I think he is a valuable person on a team without much leadership. I think he is one of the more skilled players, with better smarts than most!
Our list is young and he did very well last year as captain.
A gun is Judd. Simmo is not going to be Judd. But he offers a lot and delivers more than lets you down. Perhaps in twelve months more players on our list have come on as we hope. If so great for the team. Just not sure why you are sharpening the knives for a bloke who put in last year!

 

[BlueGibbs2011]

Just not sure why you are sharpening the knives for a bloke who put in last year!

Wasn't looking at it like that Gunslinger but point taken. Not even close to sharpening knives.

Happy for him to be in Carlton's side until retirement but just of the opinion that he is short of the mark.

For captainy and loyalty stuff then he is in my top 3.

 

[blues4flag]

Wasn't looking at it like that Gunslinger but point taken. Not even close to sharpening knives.

Happy for him to be in Carlton's side until retirement but just of the opinion that he is short of the mark.

For captainy and loyalty stuff then he is in my top 3.

He's got courage, and as far as running with the ball, he's the best in the team. He can blaze away at times, but often he'll run 30+ metres and deliver into the forward line - as shown by him having the 2nd most bounces in the competition. His possessions are much more valuable IMO than someone like a Carrazzo who goes sideways too often for my liking.

 

[I_was_there_in_87]

I think a lot of people were impressed with simmo when he became captain for a while, me included. In a couple of games it appeared he was the only one really trying. I don't think he will be a superstar, but i do think he will be a solid, consistent performer with a little bit of that integral "attitude" that we have been missing. I don't think he would look out of place in a premiership side.

I am a bit surprised more people haven't spoken about eddie betts. I still think he is a long way from showing the sort of consistent output needed to survive in a great side. His best games, actually make that his best quarters are brilliant, but just goes missing far too often. Maybe more time in the miidfield which he seemed to get at the end of the year will help that. I like his efforts most of the time, i just think he needs to add consistency if he is to stay in a great side, otherwise i think he might find himself in and out of the side a lot.

 

[Quid]

If Walker is a star... Surely Waite and stevens are!!!
Walker is very good when he's on his game, but until his disposal and consistency improve he is not yet a star!