Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 2 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[Senor Ed]

Imagine if we could have had forwards like Dahlhaus and Stringer.

Wouldn’t need to chase them

Yep true, 2 goal a season small forwards don't grow on trees.

 

[Mattdougie]

Yep true, 2 goal a season small forwards don't grow on trees.

Two more than we have already and maybe just maybe we should play someone who had ELITE stats as a small forward as a small forward!

Yep always the player never the club, who do you all blame when we finished bottom 4 in 2019? All the naughty little boys are gone

 

[Senor Ed]

Two more than we have already and maybe just maybe we should play someone who had ELITE stats as a small forward as a small forward!

Yep always the player never the club, who do you all blame when we finished bottom 4 in 2019? All the naughty little boys are gone

I'll blame the can bar at the Geelong Road end.

 

[lachy]

Two more than we have already and maybe just maybe we should play someone who had ELITE stats as a small forward as a small forward!

Yep always the player never the club, who do you all blame when we finished bottom 4 in 2019? All the naughty little boys are gone

And MD for you it is always the club or coaches never the players

 

[Dogs Rule]

Yep true, 2 goal a season small forwards don't grow on trees.

It was one goal wasn't it?

Get out. No place for facts here.

 

[Mattdougie]

And MD for you it is always the club or coaches never the players

Most of the time it’s the organisation that is the reason for fault. Do you know that an inability to control ones employees(that had previously excelled) is a failure of an organisation? Once is an oulayer, 4-5 people becomes an inside issue.

You do also know moving your employees to roles that hinder their performance is also a failure of planning and structure?

But nope our club has none of these issues now we kicked the only two problems out of the club, that’s why we have flown from 1st to 13th(14th) and still going backwards.

I’ve blamed the club since October 16 because it’s their fault we have gone backwards and continue to do so. Thinking two blokes could destroy a flag team is pathetic and even if it’s true how weak are the rest of the players and coaches to let that happen?

Let’s just hope we draft some players that don’t get upset when someone says a naughty word to them

 

[Mattdougie]

I'll blame the can bar at the Geelong Road end.

Well it was always a weak point so you probably have some merit there.

 

[JJHunter]

Two more than we have already and maybe just maybe we should play someone who had ELITE stats as a small forward as a small forward!

Yep always the player never the club, who do you all blame when we finished bottom 4 in 2019? All the naughty little boys are gone

Bootsma texted a fan girl a d*%K pic - and was terminated immediately
What Stringer did was that and even more in his time and had multiple warnings.
Just simply need to get over the fact he isnt with us anymore and simply cant keep blaming the club.
Yeh he can play footy when all switched on and yeh he is probably exactly what we need up forward.
But lets not pretend he was treated badly by being moved on.

And the club were clearly still happy to have Dalh around just at their price.
You can argue we low balled Dalhaus with a 3 year deal if you want - but it wasnt about getting rid of a naughty boy as you suggest

 

[Senor Ed]

It was one goal wasn't it?

Get out. No place for facts here.

Just one more fact please.

Dahlhaus has kicked 24 goals in the past 3 seasons. Average of 8 goals per season.

 

[Golden_6]

Two more than we have already and maybe just maybe we should play someone who had ELITE stats as a small forward as a small forward!

Yep always the player never the club, who do you all blame when we finished bottom 4 in 2019? All the naughty little boys are gone

Luke Dahlhaus was a great player in 2015 and 2016 but he has been nowhere near an elite small forward at any stage in his career. He's always played his best football in the midfield. In fact, he played considerably more time forward this year and stunk it up.

 

[lachy]

Most of the time it’s the organisation that is the reason for fault. Do you know that an inability to control ones employees(that had previously excelled) is a failure of an organisation? Once is an oulayer, 4-5 people becomes an inside issue.

You do also know moving your employees to roles that hinder their performance is also a failure of planning and structure?

But nope our club has none of these issues now we kicked the only two problems out of the club, that’s why we have flown from 1st to 13th(14th) and still going backwards.

I’ve blamed the club since October 16 because it’s their fault we have gone backwards and continue to do so. Thinking two blokes could destroy a flag team is pathetic and even if it’s true how weak are the rest of the players and coaches to let that happen?

Let’s just hope we draft some players that don’t get upset when someone says a naughty word to them

It's fine that its your opinion MD but it does not make it right.

There are faults in all businesses. Whether my own business, the ones I sit on the boards of or the ones I advise there is a simple fact for businesses to grow and develop they will make multiple decisions and only 20% actually work. The other 80% do not work. This does not mean the business has failed, it just means that strategy failed and what you do is learn from it and make adjustments from those learning for the next group of decisions.

You seem to have this idea that if something is not working straight away the club is at fault and is doing something wrong. There have been many things that have worked for the club since 2016 as well as many strategic decisions that may come to fruition in the next 5, 10 or many more years to come.

Employees who have bad attitudes and are bad influences in any business can bring a business down and inhibit good employees from blossoming and contribution to the business. Keeping them when after bringing this unacceptable behaviour to their attention and there is no change is bad management. Often it can be individuals, but sometimes it is groups.

Other than Jake, the rest have under performed for a couple of years. They were offered contracts commensurate to their performance, significantly more than the majority of those who support the club btw, and they chose to move on to greener pastures. Not paying for non delivery is actually good management so I am unsure how this is actually bad management by the club.

To coach a successful team, one that makes finals every year and wins every now and then, at any level requires players that not only can perform but can perform their role as part of a team. Unless the team is exceptional in talent due to buying in players with an unending money supply that other clubs don't have, the team that has players working together will always beat that where ego's and lack of preparation off field if their abilities are even close to even.

You are entitled to your narrative MD, and there are times I do agree, it is just on this I do disagree

 

[Norm De Guerre]

Bringing up Dahlhaus and Stringers name ad nauseam is just another in a long line of MD straw-man arguments in his ongoing quest to tell everybody that the club is a rabble and that he is indeed the one sane man in a room full of lunatics. That fact that Dahlhaus's name is brought into an argument about our paucity of goal kickers only proves this point.

That Dahlhaus' best season as a permanent forward was 23 goals and was 5 seasons ago is somehow irrelevant to the time that he has spent as he transitioned more into a permanent mid in the years since. Its not like the modern game doesn't allow mid-fielders to go or rest forward and statistically last year he was by far our worst mid when it came to hitting the scoreboard and in fact players like Williams, Richards and JJ all playing predominantly off half-back all kicked more once again proves the point. He may have some value as a pressure forward or indeed mid, however a goal scorer he isn't and you just shouldn't pay good money over an extended period for a pressure forward. The club got maximum value out of a player of his skill set who was clearly falling down the pecking order of our mid-field rotations and cashed out and shipped him when they saw an opportunity. His departure is not as is argued the sign of a internal failure to corral a recalcitrant player(s), but one of maximising an opportunity as it presented itself. I wish the club did more of this and all indications are that Power will do exactly that.

 

[BRWB]

It's fine that its your opinion MD but it does not make it right.

There are faults in all businesses. Whether my own business, the ones I sit on the boards of or the ones I advise there is a simple fact for businesses to grow and develop they will make multiple decisions and only 20% actually work. The other 80% do not work. This does not mean the business has failed, it just means that strategy failed and what you do is learn from it and make adjustments from those learning for the next group of decisions.

You seem to have this idea that if something is not working straight away the club is at fault and is doing something wrong. There have been many things that have worked for the club since 2016 as well as many strategic decisions that may come to fruition in the next 5, 10 or many more years to come.

Employees who have bad attitudes and are bad influences in any business can bring a business down and inhibit good employees from blossoming and contribution to the business. Keeping them when after bringing this unacceptable behaviour to their attention and there is no change is bad management. Often it can be individuals, but sometimes it is groups.

Other than Jake, the rest have under performed for a couple of years. They were offered contracts commensurate to their performance, significantly more than the majority of those who support the club btw, and they chose to move on to greener pastures. Not paying for non delivery is actually good management so I am unsure how this is actually bad management by the club.

To coach a successful team, one that makes finals every year and wins every now and then, at any level requires players that not only can perform but can perform their role as part of a team. Unless the team is exceptional in talent due to buying in players with an unending money supply that other clubs don't have, the team that has players working together will always beat that where ego's and lack of preparation off field if their abilities are even close to even.

You are entitled to your narrative MD, and there are times I do agree, it is just on this I do disagree

Makes sense. As a business person you will know this, and as a footy fan even more so. You can't sack all the players or staff, at some point a critical mass is reached of people/staff underperforming and management is moved on. That is the way it goes.

A flag with a young injured list in 16 and finals missed in the following two yrs suggests massive underperformance.

While individuals can keep being singled out and moved (or like Adams ask to go), at some point accountability for underperformance needs to be pointed at club management

Why is management seemingly unable to create an environment that consistently maximizes performance?

Once enough people move on, once enough people refuse point blank to come to the club, once enough people continually underperform, management must be looked at.

Why for instance are medical and conditioning people not being brutalized for allowing three bone stress injuries and recurrent hamstrings to occur on their watch this yr, on top of the previous two seasons of shit?

Why aren't we able to recruit A geade players when our list build screams out for it?

Why are we overpaying some extreme non performers? Why haven't their contracts been re negotiated? At the same time why are we appparently lowballing heart and soul players like Wallis, Dahl and Libba ? Why haven't we got the best out of these players and some at least appear demotivated?

Why is a prime KP player like Adams wanting out of a two yr contract?

A lot of questions lachy and at some point management need to be held accountable rather than blaming a seemingly ever increasing number of individual players.

 

[Mattdougie]

Luke Dahlhaus was a great player in 2015 and 2016 but he has been nowhere near an elite small forward at any stage in his career. He's always played his best football in the midfield. In fact, he played considerably more time forward this year and stunk it up.

Look at his stats for his first 3 years

 

[glenashley]

And his only decent game this season was against Geelong..... Job interview perhaps??

Luke Dahlhaus was a great player in 2015 and 2016 but he has been nowhere near an elite small forward at any stage in his career. He's always played his best football in the midfield. In fact, he played considerably more time forward this year and stunk it up.

 

[Mattdougie]

Just one more fact please.

Dahlhaus has kicked 24 goals in the past 3 seasons. Average of 8 goals per season.

EXACTLY MY POINT

 

[Mattdougie]

Bootsma texted a fan girl a d*%K pic - and was terminated immediately
What Stringer did was that and even more in his time and had multiple warnings.
Just simply need to get over the fact he isnt with us anymore and simply cant keep blaming the club.
Yeh he can play footy when all switched on and yeh he is probably exactly what we need up forward.
But lets not pretend he was treated badly by being moved on.

And the club were clearly still happy to have Dalh around just at their price.
You can argue we low balled Dalhaus with a 3 year deal if you want - but it wasnt about getting rid of a naughty boy as you suggest

Lol you actually still think Dahl left coz we low balled him this year.

Anyway it doesn’t matter I just want the club to get back to what they did in 2016 and stop balling individuals for the clubs fault. Then we will start winning games and we can all be happy

 

[Del165892]

Dahlhauss will win the coleman

 

[GetDimmaBack]

Two more than we have already and maybe just maybe we should play someone who had ELITE stats as a small forward as a small forward!

Yep always the player never the club, who do you all blame when we finished bottom 4 in 2019? All the naughty little boys are gone

Couldn't get Dahlhaus or Stringer anyway - we're not a destination club, we're sh#t. lol.

 

[Mofra]

While individuals can keep being singled out and moved (or like Adams ask to go), at some point accountability for underperformance needs to be pointed at club management

Why is management seemingly unable to create an environment that consistently maximizes performance?

...

A lot of questions lachy and at some point management need to be held accountable rather than blaming a seemingly ever increasing number of individual players.

Fair comments and questions, but haven't we already moved a significant number of staff on (and some have left via their own volition)?

Baines and Power are two significant new faces within the club's management structure, and there has been a review of the club's medical staff (worryingly, the person many seem to have issues with is still there and I have kept hearing worrying signs as recently as Tueday two days ago).

 

[Bemoreboyddog]

Makes sense. As a business person you will know this, and as a footy fan even more so. You can't sack all the players or staff, at some point a critical mass is reached of people/staff underperforming and management is moved on. That is the way it goes.

A flag with a young injured list in 16 and finals missed in the following two yrs suggests massive underperformance.

While individuals can keep being singled out and moved (or like Adams ask to go), at some point accountability for underperformance needs to be pointed at club management

Why is management seemingly unable to create an environment that consistently maximizes performance?

Once enough people move on, once enough people refuse point blank to come to the club, once enough people continually underperform, management must be looked at.

Why for instance are medical and conditioning people not being brutalized for allowing three bone stress injuries and recurrent hamstrings to occur on their watch this yr, on top of the previous two seasons of shit?

Why aren't we able to recruit A geade players when our list build screams out for it?

Why are we overpaying some extreme non performers? Why haven't their contracts been re negotiated? At the same time why are we appparently lowballing heart and soul players like Wallis, Dahl and Libba ? Why haven't we got the best out of these players and some at least appear demotivated?

Why is a prime KP player like Adams wanting out of a two yr contract?

A lot of questions lachy and at some point management need to be held accountable rather than blaming a seemingly ever increasing number of individual players.

If I could like this more than once I would.

 

[Senor Ed]

Makes sense. As a business person you will know this, and as a footy fan even more so. You can't sack all the players or staff, at some point a critical mass is reached of people/staff underperforming and management is moved on. That is the way it goes.

A flag with a young injured list in 16 and finals missed in the following two yrs suggests massive underperformance.

While individuals can keep being singled out and moved (or like Adams ask to go), at some point accountability for underperformance needs to be pointed at club management

Why is management seemingly unable to create an environment that consistently maximizes performance?

Once enough people move on, once enough people refuse point blank to come to the club, once enough people continually underperform, management must be looked at.

Why for instance are medical and conditioning people not being brutalized for allowing three bone stress injuries and recurrent hamstrings to occur on their watch this yr, on top of the previous two seasons of shit?

Why aren't we able to recruit A geade players when our list build screams out for it?

Why are we overpaying some extreme non performers? Why haven't their contracts been re negotiated? At the same time why are we appparently lowballing heart and soul players like Wallis, Dahl and Libba ? Why haven't we got the best out of these players and some at least appear demotivated?

Why is a prime KP player like Adams wanting out of a two yr contract?

A lot of questions lachy and at some point management need to be held accountable rather than blaming a seemingly ever increasing number of individual players.

This is my take - will try answer all these questions:

1. There was a meeting in the week after the GF win with senior football staff, that the current list in 2016 would not be able to perform at a level high enough for sustainable success & therefore the club would plan for the future. This meeting was attended by Bevo, Chris Grant, McCartney, Dalrymple et al. The GF win consisted of veterans (who would not be at the club in the medium term) and young kids who seemingly performed out of their skins.

2. Medical staff - this puzzles me. We've had some freak unavoidable injuries over the last few years. In terms of bone stress injuries, a lot of these seem to appear out of nowhere and are managable but from memory our soft tissue injuries havent been minor ones. When we do a hamstring, we seem to rip them off the bone ready for Xmas.

3. We arent able to recruit A grade players because we are not an attractive club to go to. There is always negative news about us (whether true or not), historically we are not successful, and are not a very commercially viable place for players to boost their profiles. We're no big club.

4. We are paying overs for a few players. T Boyd definitely. Why can't we renegotiate? Becuase why should the players. Im sure BRWB, if your employer asked you to take a paycut or change the terms of your employment for the worse, you wouldnt agree. Remember the outrage when fairwork contracts came in? Would i like to renegotiate Boyds contract? Yes. Would i do that same contract again? In a heartbeat.

Of those three players, I'd say Mitch was the only heart and soul player. Has always busted his gut and bleeds for the dogs. You talk about the club overpaying players, yet you want to pay more for Wallis as he is 'heart and soul'? Where has he finished in the clubs B and F during his whole career? Has he ever finished top 10? His career was on the crossroads earlier in the year and good on him on earning his new contract and turning it around. His game obviously has flaws but i am rapt he has decided to stay.

Dahl - hasnt strung together good games in 2 years. His close friendship with Libba doesn't really spell good things for me.

Libba - he's an issue. Could be anything. Would rather be an off-centre attention seeker than a dedicated footballer. He may train the house down but what he does off the field is impacting what he does on the field, then he'd be winning every single b and f. And he wouldnt be in a contract impasse with ANY club. There wasn't any takers for him during the trade period. Football is not his priority.

4. Adams from all reports was a loner at the club. Different cat with not many mates other than T Campbell. Also hasn't exactly played a large number of games. Talented as **** and built like a statue. Unfortunately the statue is made from papier mache.

 

[Senor Ed]

Fair comments and questions, but haven't we already moved a significant number of staff on (and some have left via their own volition)?

Baines and Power are two significant new faces within the club's management structure, and there has been a review of the club's medical staff (worryingly, the person many seem to have issues with is still there and I have kept hearing worrying signs as recently as Tueday two days ago).

Whats the go with the medical staff?

 

[Mofra]

Whats the go with the medical staff?

Allegations of mismanagement, and some peopel being very difficult to work for.

Interestingly each club is extremely different in their approach. The chat on Tuesday (an industry professional, he's close with the Hawthorn Football Club and keeps in contact with their staff and an ex-Bulldogs staff member and a Brisbane staffer) highlighted just how different the clubs are. From what I can gather (including other chats):

- North have a pretty good record with injuries and they do very little weights, overwhelming focus on body weight and functional movement.
- Brisbane on the other hand are one of the more weight-heavy clubs and also have an excellent injury record
- The Hawks have almost a 'choose your own adventure' type set up were they have a variety of professionals available (osteos, physios, chiros, myops, etc) and players go to the person they feel works best for them. People are a big fan of this approach.
- Our VU staff are excellent, we actually re-taught Wood how to run over the 2015 pre-season. The year he won the B&F.

I can't go into too much Bulldog detail here though.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

1. There was a meeting in the week after the GF win with senior football staff, that the current list in 2016 would not be able to perform at a level high enough for sustainable success & therefore the club would plan for the future. This meeting was attended by Bevo, Chris Grant, McCartney, Dalrymple et al. The GF win consisted of veterans (who would not be at the club in the medium term) and young kids who seemingly performed out of their skins.

In addition to this, there's probably the view that the tactical side of football that we won in 2016 couldn't be repeated. We had historic highs of contested possession differential and the banning of the 3rd man up and crackdown on our semi-legal handballs probably meant we couldn't continue it. With contested possessions differential that high, it wasn't reflective of being an underlying more skilful team, we just had a team that was magically "amped" for finals and the season and got to contests and played tough for each other with a perfect storm. Won us a flag, as a fan will be eternally grateful, but it's unrealistic to expect that to continue and it's hardly a tactic that you want to base your long-term success on.

Have we made the right decisions since? I don't always think so. Are there still signs for concern on the season? Yes, especially as a lot of our good performances this season were merely in Melbourne at our home ground, and I won't believe that we'll be able to challenge for a flag until we win away from home in a big game (think Sydney 2015 as a symbolic victory).

But I also think there's a lack of optimistic about how the fact we were nowhere near as bad as the Gold Coasts and Carltons of the league despite having a younger and less experienced team than them, and it wasn't us winning games because of a disproportionate number of older players carrying us up - our top 10 in the best and fairest was pretty much the youngest non-expansion of the last decade. We could theoretically hold the players we played in 2018 constant, and just through age-based improvement, that'll be a finals team in the years to come - not many teams can say that, and a path toward finals for them requires list management and coaching that exceeds the league's "average" quality of doing so. That itself is cause for optimism.