Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 5 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[VitalDread]

Anyone know if JOD will be promoted to main list, or is he staying Cat B? I'm assuming CAT B players get paid a similar base wage to your standard rookies?

Moved up to the main list

 

[doggiesin08]

I haven't seen anyone saying Bedendo is a star. What he is, though, is a super athletic young player who was developing at a rapid rate. In a couple years he went from raw VFL prospect who could barely touch the footy to a wing who built up to a few 20+ disposal, seriously impactful games, which culminated in two AFL games where he was not out of place. Since then he has had a wretched run with injuries that were not previously a factor. He's only played a few VFL games here and there since then. We know from track and coach reports that he was absolutely flying this preseason, similar to Arty.

I don’t know if he makes it, and we haven't seen close to a finished product, but I think your argument here is a strawman. The argument to keep him is that he has a number of attributes that the team needs, and was on a sharp development path. You don't simply give up on players like that after an 18 month sequence of injuries.

Roarke is a whole other kettle of fish. He's an AFL standard player who has proven over NINE years that he cannot get on the park.

Agree with all of this, also need to remember as well as being very raw when he came in he’d also missed his entire U18 year due to VIC lockdowns (like Jamarra).

Then in his second year as you say he was super promising in the VFL and didn’t look out of place at AFL level. I really wish he stayed in the team last year versus giving those games to Hannan.

 

[doggies ftw]

Perhaps we re-rookie Bedendo, but I'd seriously keep Roarke ahead of him.

Opinions and all but that’s a seriously bad call

 

[Mojorisin]

While we are on the topic of the potential to re-rookie players.
I think it's an absolute farce that the rookie draft has turned into just a mechanism to move players off of a primary list. It completely goes against why it was brought in to begin with.
I think it is either time to get rid of it completely (just have rookies as what are now cat B) or to bring in a rule that you cannot re-draft a player you have delisted within a 6 month period (leaving the door open for the mid-season draft).

If the rookie draft stayed I'd also make the minimum 3 national draft picks not include rookie promotions, creating more organic list turn over.

 

[_Cerberus_]

Just glad we are not one of the dumpster teams down the bottom. The massive wank fest between North and Eagles fans in the Pick One thread makes me want to bang my head open against something. Hope Reid decides to not play footy no more and screw both of them. Plus the other fan bases desperate to trade up. Or Eagles fans thinking Pick One is worth 4 first rounders / North should cough up all their picks (should they get a good hand) to move up ONE spot, massively against all historic trends.

Reid is good, but he isn't the greatest draftee ever. He won't even be the best player in this draft come five years.

North fans will be cheering on their team tanking the rest of the season, and for Fremantle to choke against the Eagles. What kind of mentality is that? Maybe the media should be asking if North did tank vs the Eagles, the so called worst team in the last few decades. Instead of the Eagles for a 1 point loss to the Bombers in which they rallied from 5 goals down?

Didn't realize North fans were so entitled. They want top band compensation for a slow injury prone defender? Whom they rate, but won't sign? They want exclusive access to Sanders who apparently used to be in their academy, until he wasn't, and then they realized he is actually good. So they go begging on their knees to the AFL to bend the rules for them so they put him directly on their list. Plus they want a high end priority sympathy pick for being poorly ran for years. So they can have Picks 2, 3, 4 and Sanders. Which they want apparently throw away on MIDS, whom they already have heaps of. That some can't even get a game right now, whilst ignoring their dire KPP stocks. Don't they have the most high end picks on their list in the entire league? Yet still asking for handouts? Yeah nah! Maybe learn to manage and develop the list properly.

Why should other clubs get punished for another clubs poor list management?

 

[_Cerberus_]

While we are on the topic of the potential to re-rookie players.
I think it's an absolute farce that the rookie draft has turned into just a mechanism to move players off of a primary list. It completely goes against why it was brought in to begin with.
I think it is either time to get rid of it completely (just have rookies as what are now cat B) or to bring in a rule that you cannot re-draft a player you have delisted within a 6 month period (leaving the door open for the mid-season draft).

If the rookie draft stayed I'd also make the minimum 3 national draft picks not include rookie promotions, creating more organic list turn over.

They should rename it, the Salary Dump List.

 

[VitalDread]

While we are on the topic of the potential to re-rookie players.
I think it's an absolute farce that the rookie draft has turned into just a mechanism to move players off of a primary list. It completely goes against why it was brought in to begin with.
I think it is either time to get rid of it completely (just have rookies as what are now cat B) or to bring in a rule that you cannot re-draft a player you have delisted within a 6 month period (leaving the door open for the mid-season draft).

If the rookie draft stayed I'd also make the minimum 3 national draft picks not include rookie promotions, creating more organic list turn over.

When they changed to ruling from having to promote mid season/injury replacement to straight away playing
They should have abolished the rookie list

The only reason it exists is so you can offer a lower contract to players, but they could re-structure the main draft payments to having picks after 60 act as rookie salary

 

[Mofra]

Opinions and all but that’s a seriously bad call

I'd say a seriously bad call is even questioning that.

Roarke has played far more good football at both levels. Given a clean pre season each, Roarke would be far more ready to step in round 1 next year if needed.

 

[Mofra]

I haven't seen anyone saying Bedendo is a star. What he is, though, is a super athletic young player who was developing at a rapid rate. In a couple years he went from raw VFL prospect who could barely touch the footy to a wing who built up to a few 20+ disposal, seriously impactful games, which culminated in two AFL games where he was not out of place. Since then he has had a wretched run with injuries that were not previously a factor. He's only played a few VFL games here and there since then. We know from track and coach reports that he was absolutely flying this preseason, similar to Arty.

I don’t know if he makes it, and we haven't seen close to a finished product, but I think your argument here is a strawman. The argument to keep him is that he has a number of attributes that the team needs, and was on a sharp development path. You don't simply give up on players like that after an 18 month sequence of injuries.

Roarke is a whole other kettle of fish. He's an AFL standard player who has proven over NINE years that he cannot get on the park.

Nobody has said others are calling him a 'star' either, so you're actually starting your post with a strawman.

What attributes do we need? Most have identified a small forward, a wing, a KPD & an intercept defender, and ideally a small defender to replace Duryea.

Since then we've brought in players to try and address those needs.
Arty has moved forward to a pressure type and shows promise. We drafted Clarke who is showing signs.

We signed both Baker and Poulter. Baker showed a bit before fading, Poulter showed signs as well. They're both behind Williams as a first choice wing.

Then we drafted Buss & signed JOD. We also took Gallagher and although we said he looks a likely BP type he seems to be playing a few different spots.

I'm not canning the kid, but he's played two senior games of AFL football and some of the talk here seems to infer he's just about best 22 when fit. I think he's a fair way off and we'd do well to temper expectations a bit.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

I despise the way that Ginnivan goes about it. He's a cheating, diving tip-rat, hated by 97.64% of the Australian populace. But if there's anything to this trade talk, then he'd be our cheating, diving tip-rat hated by 97.64% of the Australian populace. And I'd be ok with that.

As for Bedendo. I'd rather put 10 years of development and hopium into him than the club has put into some of the other players currently on the list.

The ceiling on most of those guys is obvious. Id much rather roll the dice on a list spot on a guy with Bedendos injury history than just about anybody outside of the established best 22. We need more guys with his athletic profile on the list. Not fewer.

FMD. If the likes of 31 year old Tom Campbell

29

Tom Campbell

Age

34

Ht

201cm

Wt

108kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.1

2star

K

4.2

2star

HB

4.8

3star

CL

1.6

4star

HO

17.0

5star

D

5.0

1star

K

3.0

1star

HB

2.0

1star

CL

1.0

3star

HO

2.0

5star

D

7.2

2star

K

4.2

2star

HB

3.0

3star

CL

1.2

4star

HO

13.2

5star

can still eek out a career on an AFL list then there has to be a place for a 21 year old 191cm with sky high potential. If there isn't then this game is truly ****ed!

 

[Bulldog rick]

I hope we keep both roarke and bedendo. Rourke gives his all and is just a great role player and bedendo was showing great form in the pre season. Injury sucks. I would keep them for another year at least. There are others I would cut before these two.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Nobody has said others are calling him a 'star' either, so you're actually starting your post with a strawman.

What attributes do we need? Most have identified a small forward, a wing, a KPD & an intercept defender, and ideally a small defender to replace Duryea.

Since then we've brought in players to try and address those needs.
Arty has moved forward to a pressure type and shows promise. We drafted Clarke who is showing signs.

We signed both Baker and Poulter. Baker showed a bit before fading, Poulter showed signs as well. They're both behind Williams as a first choice wing.

Then we drafted Buss & signed JOD. We also took Gallagher and although we said he looks a likely BP type he seems to be playing a few different spots.

I'm not canning the kid, but he's played two senior games of AFL football and some of the talk here seems to infer he's just about best 22 when fit. I think he's a fair way off and we'd do well to temper expectations a bit.

Haha, fair comment. My point is that your post implied that people are saying he should be kept because he's a very good player - i.e., he's a myth, he gets better the more he doesn't play. His actual performance isn't why people think he should be retained, it's that he has the potential and the development path to support that he might be able to reach it.

To be honest, I'm not sure entirely how the players listed here are related to Bedendo's fate?

When I say attributes, I'm talking in terms of play style / athletic ability, not position. The attributes we need are speed and skill through the middle of the ground. This immediately takes out most of those you talk about - Clarke is not quick (also less proven and less accomplished at VFL level than Bedendo - an unfair comparison due to length of time on the list, but if you're going to compare Bedendo to Roarke...), Buss plays down back, Baker isn't skillful, and Gallagher could be much worse than Bedendo for all we know. JOD could be a contributor but also might settle elsewhere through necessity.

Poulter and Williams are holding down the fort at the moment, but it isn't exactly an area of advantage for us. Of course we should be looking to improve those positions (not to mention, you can't just have two wings on the list). That might be Bedendo, it might not - but I'm loathe to ditch a 21 year old whose form was on a very upward trajectory from a low base with attributes and that plays in a position of relative weakness for us.

At the end of the day, we can't make list decisions around potential - but potential + a strong developmental trajectory in a raw, young, 190cm+ player with speed and skill? You absolutely don't sneeze at that.

 

[Nat Fyfe]

It’s throwing him into the open draft where yes someone else can take him before our rookie pick plus also as Mojo pointed out it means he becomes a free agent every single time he’s out of contract.

Considering there’s about 15 blokes we could delist before him unless we’re planning on turning over 12+ list spots it would be a s**t decision

Who are these 15? I could pick maybe 8 or 9

 

[Mofra]

Haha, fair comment. My point is that your post implied that people are saying he should be kept because he's a very good player - i.e., he's a myth, he gets better the more he doesn't play. His actual performance isn't why people think he should be retained, it's that he has the potential and the development path to support that he might be able to reach it.

To be honest, I'm not sure entirely how the players listed here are related to Bedendo's fate?

When I say attributes, I'm talking in terms of play style / athletic ability, not position. The attributes we need are speed and skill through the middle of the ground. This immediately takes out most of those you talk about - Clarke is not quick (also less proven and less accomplished at VFL level than Bedendo - an unfair comparison due to length of time on the list, but if you're going to compare Bedendo to Roarke...), Buss plays down back, Baker isn't skillful, and Gallagher could be much worse than Bedendo for all we know. JOD could be a contributor but also might settle elsewhere through necessity.

Poulter and Williams are holding down the fort at the moment, but it isn't exactly an area of advantage for us. Of course we should be looking to improve those positions (not to mention, you can't just have two wings on the list). That might be Bedendo, it might not - but I'm loathe to ditch a 21 year old whose form was on a very upward trajectory from a low base with attributes and that plays in a position of relative weakness for us.

At the end of the day, we can't make list decisions around potential - but potential + a strong developmental trajectory in a raw, young, 190cm+ player with speed and skill? You absolutely don't sneeze at that.

They're all fair points.

I still see him as a kid who needs a lot to go right to make it, and I still think our expectations of him are pretty high to be borderline unfair.

There's every chance he takes a while to get going next year after this year being a write off. AFL player history is littered with exceptional athletes who never became regular players.

 

[geoffjennings79]

Just glad we are not one of the dumpster teams down the bottom. The massive wank fest between North and Eagles fans in the Pick One thread makes me want to bang my head open against something. Hope Reid decides to not play footy no more and screw both of them. Plus the other fan bases desperate to trade up. Or Eagles fans thinking Pick One is worth 4 first rounders / North should cough up all their picks (should they get a good hand) to move up ONE spot, massively against all historic trends.

Reid is good, but he isn't the greatest draftee ever. Won't even be the best player in this draft come five years.

North fans will be cheering on their team tanking the rest of the season, and for Fremantle to choke against the Eagles.

Didn't realize North fans were a bunch of entitled muppets. They want top band compensation for a slow injury prone defender. They want exclusive access to Sanders who apparently used to be in their academy, until he wasn't, and then they realized he is actually good, so they go begging on their knees to the AFL to bend the rules for them so they put him directly on their list. Plus they want a high end priority sympathy pick for being poorly ran for years. So they can have Picks 2, 3, 4 and Sanders. Which they want to piss away on MIDS, whom they already have heaps of that some can't even get agame, whilst ignoring their dire KPP stocks. Don't they have the most high end picks on their list? Still asking for handouts? Yeah nah! Maybe learn to manage and develop the list properly.

Why should other clubs get punished for another clubs poor list management?

All good points, but I'm keen to read Leon 's objective view!

 

[Sentinel]

While we are on the topic of the potential to re-rookie players.
I think it's an absolute farce that the rookie draft has turned into just a mechanism to move players off of a primary list. It completely goes against why it was brought in to begin with.
I think it is either time to get rid of it completely (just have rookies as what are now cat B) or to bring in a rule that you cannot re-draft a player you have delisted within a 6 month period (leaving the door open for the mid-season draft).

If the rookie draft stayed I'd also make the minimum 3 national draft picks not include rookie promotions, creating more organic list turn over.

I don't understand why the Category A rookie list it exists any more. It was originally a tool to select and develop project type players who weren't eligible for senior selection without being upgraded following a long term injury/retirement etc without taking up a list position.

Unless I'm missing something, under current rules how is it different (for all intents and purposes) to an expanded senior list?

And if we're scrapping the rookie draft, get rid of the preseason draft at the same time.

 

[Leon]

All good points, but I'm keen to read Leon 's objective view!

I’ll give you my objective view, once I have removed my jaw from the floor after reading Cerberus saying they didn’t know Norf fans were entitled muppets.


Cerberus!


How could you not know this?


Everyone owes Norf something as literally every single person or entity in history has victimised them at some point.


Just ask their fans, they’ll tell you.

 

[Freezin]

Will Sutherland would be wonderful.

Cam Green would be handy as well.

 

[geoffjennings79]

Chris Hemsworth is a young 39, and approx 190.

Can we rookie him and throw him in occasionally to mainly distract the opposition? Not sure he'd qualify as Cat B, or Academy(!) perhaps?!

 

[dogwatch]

I'd say a seriously bad call is even questioning that.

Roarke has played far more good football at both levels. Given a clean pre season each, Roarke would be far more ready to step in round 1 next year if needed.

Can I invoke the Mexican girl?

 

[Mofra]

Chris Hemsworth is a young 39, and approx 190.

Can we rookie him and throw him in occasionally to mainly distract the opposition? Not sure he'd qualify as Cat B, or Academy(!) perhaps?!

He has a lot of Marvel experience

 

[dogwatch]

I’ll give you my objective view, once I have removed my jaw from the floor after reading Cerberus saying they didn’t know Norf fans were entitled muppets.


Cerberus!


How could you not know this?


Everyone owes Norf something as literally every single person or entity in history has victimised them at some point.


Just ask their fans, they’ll tell you.

BF Rule #5:
Fans of all clubs (apart from the one you support) are entitled muppets.

 

[doggies ftw]

I'd say a seriously bad call is even questioning that.

Roarke has played far more good football at both levels. Given a clean pre season each, Roarke would be far more ready to step in round 1 next year if needed.

Because building a list is purely about whose more ready to step in round 1 next year, I guess that’s why we should prioritise O’Brien over Buss and Lobb over Darcy then.

Rourke is 27 years old, has played less than 50 games has had 2x ACLs, is coming off a very serious foot injury which is way more likely to cause future problems than a groin. Aaand is just a battler VFL level player anyway.

What tf am I reading

 

[Euku]

Roarke is done Hannan done O'Brien done hopefully McComb done Maclean done bedendo maybe this is the minimum list clean we need

go dogs

Come on another flag woohoo woof

 

[mattwa]

I'd be def keeping bedendo. McNeil can make way for him for sure. Arty and Clarke are better options now at that pressure fwd anyway