Training Training Thread

[kazzooka]

I expect Burton will be very much work in progress in 2016 as JOR was in 2015, both based on serious injuries/issues with their body.

Lovell is the one from this year's draftees I expect will get more game time than the others. But even he will be competing with Langers, Hartung, Howe, JOR, etc who did not make the GF team.

Does anyone know if Burton did the time trial? If so how he went?

Anyone notice any changes to players body size? Hilly seems to have bigger arms going by the video and hodgey looks to have dropped the 1kg a year that he said he's been doing the last few years.

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

Does anyone know if Burton did the time trial? If so how he went?

Anyone notice any changes to players body size? Hilly seems to have bigger arms going by the video and hodgey looks to have dropped the 1kg a year that he said he's been doing the last few years.

The photos I saw it looked like most players were the same size. Litherland possibly a little bigger. Was hoping TOB would have stacked on some weight but he didn't look like it. Shem is still huge.

Isn't this first venture back to training about not stacking on the pounds and then they all get their modified programmes and in Feb we get to marvel at the new builds a las Schoey a few years back?

 

[Agent Smith]

Does anyone know if Burton did the time trial? If so how he went?

Anyone notice any changes to players body size? Hilly seems to have bigger arms going by the video and hodgey looks to have dropped the 1kg a year that he said he's been doing the last few years.

I think Lovell did but not Burton.

 

[Brishawk]

I was hoping hartung might have put on some weight to allow him to compete for contested ball and be a better tackler. Well done to him regardless as smith is an extremely good runner and takes some beating.

 

[Suntory Boss Coffee]

I was hoping hartung might have put on some weight to allow him to compete for contested ball and be a better tackler. Well done to him regardless as smith is an extremely good runner and takes some beating.

Strength > weight

 

[PunkyHawkster]

Anyone know where to find times for the 2.2km time trial?

 

[Bumpswithagrin]

Anyone know where to find times for the 2.2km time trial?

I don't think they ever actually publish the exact times.

 

[Brishawk]

Strength > weight

missed the point. He was already at the top end of afl fitness. Why try and be even fitter when your primary weakness is weakness?

 

[Bumpswithagrin]

missed the point. He was already at the top end of afl fitness. Why try and be even fitter when your primary weakness is weakness?

He wanted to beat Issie in the time trial

 

[kirbatron]

Billy is probably fitter & stronger than this time last year

 

[MoustachioNuts]

I was hoping hartung might have put on some weight to allow him to compete for contested ball and be a better tackler. Well done to him regardless as smith is an extremely good runner and takes some beating.

Johnny the Platten was a good one and small one, no?
Maybe for Billy, he should make longer hair instead of being fat in the summer for putin on extra kilograms.

 

[Del33640]

missed the point. He was already at the top end of afl fitness. Why try and be even fitter when your primary weakness is weakness?

Strength is just that, you don't need size to be stronger.

The link between bulk and strength is a big furphy - having beach muscles doesn't equate to more strength, it just means you can bicep curl a heavier weight. The way the whole kinetic chain of muscle in the body works in cohesion is far, far, far more important than how much you can bench, curl etc.

That's why players lose mobility when they stack it on in the gym. I don't know how long before it will happen, if it hasn't already, but the type of stuff mobility experts such as Ido Portal have built cult followings promoting will change the whole dynamic of the way clubs approach strength training. There will always be an element of weight lifting to AFL strength and conditioning, but training to be strong and fast isn't the same as training for size.

 

[Main Man]

missed the point. He was already at the top end of afl fitness. Why try and be even fitter when your primary weakness is weakness?

I believe you missed his point, which was that you can become stronger without gaining weight, he never mentioned fitness.

Majority of weight training they would do these days is based on developing core/overall strength without gaining too much weight.

Key position players would be slightly different but running players very much so.

Look at Hodge and Lewis, they have lost weight over recent years but hasn't impacted their strength.

 

[Brishawk]

Johnny the Platten was a good one and small one, no?
Maybe for Billy, he should make longer hair instead of being fat in the summer for putin on extra kilograms.

True. Longer hair would help

 

[Prudster]

I believe you missed his point, which was that you can become stronger without gaining weight, he never mentioned fitness.

Majority of weight training they would do these days is based on developing core/overall strength without gaining too much weight.

Key position players would be slightly different but running players very much so.

Look at Hodge and Lewis, they have lost weight over recent years but hasn't impacted their strength.

That's possibly a bit misleading. While you can gain some strength without gaining weight, there are limitations to how far you can go, and for most people, they would need to put on a fair amount of muscle mass in order to be at the necessary strength levels to compete in elite sport. For guys like Hartung, Hill or Smith, they will likely always struggle in the strength stakes, simply because for their roles it is more advantageous to keep the speed and mobility over putting on more weight to add strength. If these guys could get themselves to the strength levels of the strongest AFL players without putting on weight, they would, but the reality is that this isn't really possible, and so a trade off is made.

Do you have any more details on Hodge and Lewis? I know they lost weight, but i haven't seen anything to say they didn't lose strength. Both were probably above average for midfielders in terms of strength, so any weight loss, and subsequent strength losses, are simply not that obvious on a football field, but their numbers in the gym have likely dropped. Neither are particularly relevant to a guy like Hartung though, because he would need to pack on a fair amount of weight and strength to be at the same level as them.

 

[Brishawk]

Strength is just that, you don't need size to be stronger.

The link between bulk and strength is a big furphy - having beach muscles doesn't equate to more strength, it just means you can bicep curl a heavier weight. The way the whole kinetic chain of muscle in the body works in cohesion is far, far, far more important than how much you can bench, curl etc.

That's why players lose mobility when they stack it on in the gym. I don't know how long before it will happen, if it hasn't already, but the type of stuff mobility experts such as Ido Portal have built cult followings promoting will change the whole dynamic of the way clubs approach strength training. There will always be an element of weight lifting to AFL strength and conditioning, but training to be strong and fast isn't the same as training for size.

I believe you missed his point, which was that you can become stronger without gaining weight, he never mentioned fitness.

Majority of weight training they would do these days is based on developing core/overall strength without gaining too much weight.

Key position players would be slightly different but running players very much so.

Look at Hodge and Lewis, they have lost weight over recent years but hasn't impacted their strength.

I'm not disputing the primacy of strength over weight. And I certainly hope that billy is stronger. But there is no point celebrating a marginal improvement in running ability in Hartung. It might not present any actual improvement in match day performance. THAT IS THE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE

The guy on the far left has the body of a player that can win his own ball. The guy second from the left doesn't. Look at Lovell's chest, hips, gluts and thighs. If someone tries to move Lovell off the ball they need to move his body mass AND fight against his strength.

You can see Lovell's body looks a lot like Gray's.

Same with Neale.

This is not to say Hartung should go out and win his own ball as number 1 priority. But he doesn't have Hill's agility to compensate for his lack of size so needs to improve his body shape so he isn't a liability. His photos don't indicate his has built up strength in the hips/gluts/thighs which is where he needs it the most. Happy to wait until the season starts to pass full judgment here but the point is that making his strength marginally better isn't of value as opposed to focusing improving his primary weakness which is his core body strength.

PS - You don't know that Hodge and Lewis have not lost strength. Hodge probably peaked for strngth in 2009 when they increased his weight through a deliberate strength program. That didn't make him a better player of course but saying he hasn't lost strength through weight loss isn't really accurate.

 

[Main Man]

That's possibly a bit misleading. While you can gain some strength without gaining weight, there are limitations to how far you can go, and for most people, they would need to put on a fair amount of muscle mass in order to be at the necessary strength levels to compete in elite sport. For guys like Hartung, Hill or Smith, they will likely always struggle in the strength stakes, simply because for their roles it is more advantageous to keep the speed and mobility over putting on more weight to add strength. If these guys could get themselves to the strength levels of the strongest AFL players without putting on weight, they would, but the reality is that this isn't really possible, and so a trade off is made.

Do you have any more details on Hodge and Lewis? I know they lost weight, but i haven't seen anything to say they didn't lose strength. Both were probably above average for midfielders in terms of strength, so any weight loss, and subsequent strength losses, are simply not that obvious on a football field, but their numbers in the gym have likely dropped. Neither are particularly relevant to a guy like Hartung though, because he would need to pack on a fair amount of weight and strength to be at the same level as them.

Not really misleading, Hartung would be able to get his strength levels up to the required standard (for his role in the team) whilst putting on minimal weight, in fact you can lose weight and gain strength.

Regardless I don't get the obsession with bulking up outside players whose role in the team is to be most effective on the outside.

 

[Main Man]

I'm not disputing the primacy of strength over weight. And I certainly hope that billy is stronger. But there is no point celebrating a marginal improvement in running ability in Hartung. It might not present any actual improvement in match day performance. THAT IS THE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE

The guy on the far left has the body of a player that can win his own ball. The guy second from the left doesn't. Look at Lovell's chest, hips, gluts and thighs. If someone tries to move Lovell off the ball they need to move his body mass AND fight against his strength.

You can see Lovell's body looks a lot like Gray's.

Same with Neale.

This is not to say Hartung should go out and win his own ball as number 1 priority. But he doesn't have Hill's agility to compensate for his lack of size so needs to improve his body shape so he isn't a liability. His photos don't indicate his has built up strength in the hips/gluts/thighs which is where he needs it the most. Happy to wait until the season starts to pass full judgment here but the point is that making his strength marginally better isn't of value as opposed to focusing improving his primary weakness which is his core body strength.

PS - You don't know that Hodge and Lewis have not lost strength. Hodge probably peaked for strngth in 2009 when they increased his weight through a deliberate strength program. That didn't make him a better player of course but saying he hasn't lost strength through weight loss isn't really accurate.

I'm pretty certain the club would have targets set for him and if he is not reaching them they will adjust accordingly but what amuses me is people who are outside the club passing judgement on the physical appearance of players when they have no idea of where the club wants them to be.

Hartung is an outisde player, he doesn't need to have a build like Gray and Neale as they are primarily inside midfielders.

I don't get the obsession with everyone wanting players to build strength so they can play on the inside or improve on the inside, Hartung is in the team to run and create and the outside, much like Smith and Hill, they provide a great balance to the team.

Talk about being a liability to the team is rubbish because they are not there to be good on the inside, leave that up to the inside players, you cannot have a team full of Brad Sewells running around.

As I said I think everyone should be trusting the club instead of making judgements based on what they believe is best.

 

[mightynineteen]

I'm pretty certain the club would have targets set for him and if he is not reaching them they will adjust accordingly but what amuses me is people who are outside the club passing judgement on the physical appearance of players when they have no idea of where the club wants them to be.

Hartung is an outisde player, he doesn't need to have a build like Gray and Neale as they are primarily inside midfielders.

I don't get the obsession with everyone wanting players to build strength so they can play on the inside or improve on the inside, Hartung is in the team to run and create and the outside, much like Smith and Hill, they provide a great balance to the team.

Talk about being a liability to the team is rubbish because they are not there to be good on the inside, leave that up to the inside players, you cannot have a team full of Brad Sewells running around.

As I said I think everyone should be trusting the club instead of making judgements based on what they believe is best.

I know that Hartung is an outside running machine.
However I found it a bit annoying when he tried to lay a tackle Last year and it was easily broken.
It would seem that laying tackles is part of the job description, or he wouldn't be attempting them.

 

[Prudster]

Not really misleading, Hartung would be able to get his strength levels up to the required standard (for his role in the team) whilst putting on minimal weight, in fact you can lose weight and gain strength.

Regardless I don't get the obsession with bulking up outside players whose role in the team is to be most effective on the outside.

It is misleading, as is this post. Can you technically lose weight while gaining strength? Yes. Does it become nearly impossible for an experienced lifter losing muscles mass not fat (a guy like him wouldn't have much fat to lose), who doesn't have the perfect genetics to do it over a long period of time? Yes. It's unlikely Billy could lose weight or even maintain weight while putting on a significant amount of strength. If it were possible to do while running as much as footballers do, then every club would do it.

As for whether the team wants him to put on the extra weight in order to get more strength, that's a whole different story. I think a lot of us on here are hoping he will become more of an inside threat, which will require more strength than his more outside role, but also requires the trade off of putting on more weight and thus potentially losing some speed/mobility.

 

[cryptor]

Weight (or more accurately mass) is good for bumping people off the ball or holding your position - assuming you don't have a great leveraging technique like Gunston. That's simple physics; force = mass x acceleration.

Strength as some have already covered is a bit more complex and is not completely dependent on mass.

He's unlikely to ever be a huge ball winner. He just needs to improve his durability so that on the occasion he does get cleaned up with a bump he doesn't get injured. They'll otherwise focus on improving his strengths.

 

[Main Man]

I know that Hartung is an outside running machine.
However I found it a bit annoying when he tried to lay a tackle Last year and it was easily broken.
It would seem that laying tackles is part of the job description, or he wouldn't be attempting them.

Not everyone is going to land every tackle, as I said if we had a bunch of Brad Sewells running around who landed every tackle and were good on the inside but average on the outside and average users then we wouldn't be winning premierships.

Every player has strengths and weaknesses but as long as they are doing what they are primarily in the team for then the club will live with their flaws.

Again the club will have him at a level they want to him to be, if he is not at that level then he won't be getting games so lets just let the club worry about it before we make judgments based on what we might think is best.

 

[Main Man]

It is misleading, as is this post. Can you technically lose weight while gaining strength? Yes. Does it become nearly impossible for an experienced lifter losing muscles mass not fat (a guy like him wouldn't have much fat to lose), who doesn't have the perfect genetics to do it over a long period of time? Yes. It's unlikely Billy could lose weight or even maintain weight while putting on a significant amount of strength. If it were possible to do while running as much as footballers do, then every club would do it.

As for whether the team wants him to put on the extra weight in order to get more strength, that's a whole different story. I think a lot of us on here are hoping he will become more of an inside threat, which will require more strength than his more outside role, but also requires the trade off of putting on more weight and thus potentially losing some speed/mobility.

You did read the bit where I said "putting on minimal weight"?

I'm not saying Billy would be losing weight but he doesn't need to put on 5kg in the Gym over Summer to gain the required strength, do people expect him to come back looking like the "Hulk"?

I'm tipping Billy might be 1-2kg heavier than he was this time last year and I'm tipping he is stronger also.

 

[Prudster]

I'm not saying Billy would be losing weight but he doesn't need to put on 5kg in the Gym over Summer to gain the required strength, do people expect him to come back looking like the "Hulk"?

I'm tipping Billy might be 1-2kg heavier than he was this time last year and I'm tipping he is stronger also.

Okay but surely you can see what everyone else is saying right? Hartung is an elite runner, is quick, can find the ball on the outside, so where does his development come from? Reading the game, but he already seems pretty good at that and will improve with more game time. Maybe getting on the scoreboard more? To me, and a lot of others, the development of his inside game (and thus his strength, especially through the legs and hips) is the biggest area for him to improve. While maybe we want him to be a purely outside player, developing his inside game could see him become that inside/outside midfielder like an Ablett or a Robbie Gray, who can win the ball on the inside, and then spread and get it on the outside.

All i'm saying is that he would really have to stack on weight and hulk up (which nobody here is really calling for) in order to lose a significant amount of his run and zip. There are plenty of midfielders who are heavier than Hartung who kept their speed and agility at an elite level after bulking up. While obviously it's up to the club, many here would love to see him develop in that way, and that's all we are saying.

 

[MightyHawks86]

I have faith in the coaching staff that they've got a plan in mind for Hartung (and everybody for that matter). I'm sure whatever targets they're setting for the players are aimed towards maximising their strengths and minimising their weaknesses. The younger players will develop not only through their training, but natural growth as well.