Training Training Thread

[Prudster]

To be honest I couldn't care less what you or anyone else around here wants players to become, I'll leave that up to the club, if they want to turn him into more of an inside player so be it, they seem to have a pretty good idea on how to prepare a premiership winning list.

Then why are you having a discussion about it on a football forum?! This is a place made precisely for fans to discuss this sort of thing!

 

[Boo71]

You don't understand why people might want to see him develop more of an inside game?

Mate he is a kid. Let him get a few pre-seasons under his belt and that will develop naturally!

By the time Hodge, Mitch, Burger and Lewis retire Hill, Hartung, JoR, will have the strength you and birhawk and whinging about, as well as the experience to play more roles within the team.

The problem with this whole circular discussion is the coaches and recruiters don't seem to worried about Hill and Hartungs inside game, since they are too busy working with their strengths while recruiting other players whose strengths offset theirs, such as Lovell. Pretty sure the club knew exactly what they were getting when they called out both Hill and Hurtang, and it wasn't Leigh Matthews or Sam Mitchell.

 

[Main Man]

Then why are you having a discussion about it on a football forum?! This is a place made precisely for fans to discuss this sort of thing!

I didn't say it couldn't be discussed, just shouldn't be disappointed when looking at a photo of a player because you think he should be looking a certain way.

 

[cryptor]

Spot on mate.

Hey Brishawk check out these comments from Mitchell, but what would he know right?

source: http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-11-16/big-kid-mitchell-still-learning-the-ropes-after-four-flags

Perhaps that aspect of his football story is why Mitchell says what he loves best about Australian football is that, like the Manhattan skyline, Australia's game can find a spot for both talls and smalls.

It can also find a place for quick and slow, inside and outside, rough and tumble or refined and, says Mitchell, the game is getting even better as it evolves at making the most of those differences.

He suspects there is a lingering misconception among observers that you have to excel at everything to play the game now, whereas the game is moving the other way.

When Mitchell, Luke Hodge and Jordan Lewis first started that wasn't the case.

They worked on their running.

If Billy Hartung and Brad Hill had arrived in that era, they would have been sent to the weights room.

Now players are trained to become better at what they are good at, rather than being hammered to improve their weaknesses.

"Everyone had to be a good runner but now if you're not a great runner, there is still a place for you and if you are a great runner and not great at contested footy there is still a place for you," Mitchell said.

It's then up to the team and game plan to maximise individual strengths and minimise the effect of their weaknesses.

"[It's a] better spectacle to watch, a better game to play and I think it makes it more enjoyable because you're not having to work on something you're no good at," Mitchell said.

That's the interview I was referencing earlier! Glad I didn't hallucinate it!

 

[cryptor]

Also there's a place for Hartung and Hill on the wings with Smith playing a high HFF role floating back to be a spare down back before rushing forward to be a marking option inside 50. Would be a nightmare for any defender trying to be accountable for him.

 

[Prudster]

Mate he is a kid. Let him get a few pre-seasons under his belt and that will develop naturally!

By the time Hodge, Mitch, Burger and Lewis retire Hill, Hartung, JoR, will have the strength you and birhawk and whinging about, as well as the experience to play more roles within the team.

The problem with this whole circular discussion is the coaches and recruiters don't seem to worried about Hill and Hartungs inside game, since they are too busy working with their strengths while recruiting other players whose strengths offset theirs, such as Lovell. Pretty sure the club knew exactly what they were getting when they called out both Hill and Hurtang, and it wasn't Leigh Matthews or Sam Mitchell.

This is Hartung's third preseason, and people are a little disappointed that he hasn't put on more size (which while not perfect, is a general indication of strength gained). Nobody's throwing the baby out, we're just hoping to see a little more development in that side of his game.

To be honest, the only reason i joined this conversation was because people were posting about the correlation between size/mass and strength. Imo what they were posting was misleading so i brought it up.

I didn't say it couldn't be discussed, just shouldn't be disappointed when looking at a photo of a player because you think he should be looking a certain way.

What else are we meant to go on? As i said above, adding size is a loose indication of getting stronger. It's by no means perfect, but in your average person it's a fairly good indication, and there is really not much else for us as fans to go on. Billy still has a way to go before he has the size, strength, body, etc. of an AFL player (especially the good ones).

In the same way we discussed Jed Anderson's loss of size after his pneumonia, or Schoey's gains in size over the last few years, i think it's reasonable to discuss Hartung's changes in size.

 

[HR Roughnstuf]

That's the interview I was referencing earlier! Glad I didn't hallucinate it!

I think it's really disappointing that Hawthorn 'supporters' would be getting stuck into Billy for actually WINNING the time trial. Sure he is already a good runner, but this isn't winning the under 12's cross country for your primary school, this is beating a team of professional athletes.

This pushes the other runners in the team to get better. I would rather Billy winning than finishing middle of the pack.

Also I remember a few different commentators in the Grand Final making reference to tape around Hill's wrist during the match. They said it had just one word written on it, 'RUN'. It didn't say tackle.

 

[Prudster]

I think it's really disappointing that Hawthorn 'supporters' would be getting stuck into Billy for actually WINNING the time trial. Sure he is already a good runner, but this isn't winning the under 12's cross country for your primary school, this is beating a team of professional athletes.

This pushes the other runners in the team to get better. I would rather Billy winning than finishing middle of the pack.

Also I remember a few different commentators in the Grand Final making reference to tape around Hill's wrist during the match. They said it had just one word written on it, 'RUN'. It didn't say tackle.

Is anyone here actually having a go at Hartung or the club? People keep saying this but i the vast majority are by no means having a crack at them. Just because something isn't over the top positive doesn't mean supporters are having a go.

 

[Main Man]

This is Hartung's third preseason, and people are a little disappointed that he hasn't put on more size (which while not perfect, is a general indication of strength gained). Nobody's throwing the baby out, we're just hoping to see a little more development in that side of his game.

To be honest, the only reason i joined this conversation was because people were posting about the correlation between size/mass and strength. Imo what they were posting was misleading so i brought it up.



What else are we meant to go on? As i said above, adding size is a loose indication of getting stronger. It's by no means perfect, but in your average person it's a fairly good indication, and there is really not much else for us as fans to go on. Billy still has a way to go before he has the size, strength, body, etc. of an AFL player (especially the good ones).

In the same way we discussed Jed Anderson's loss of size after his pneumonia, or Schoey's gains in size over the last few years, i think it's reasonable to discuss Hartung's changes in size.

You're completely missing the point, in your opinion he should be gaining weight but that might not be what the club wants, forget about what you are wanting or expecting to see in players and leave it to the club.

The club will be working at getting him to exactly where they want him to be physically so you shouldn't really care how he looks, trust the club and judge Hartung on his performance in 2016 not on a photograph of him in pre season training.

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

Surely the fewer rotations and no sub now means that more and more players will be shedding the kilos and needing to be better runners???

 

[Prudster]

Exactly, Hartung is


You're completely missing the point, in your opinion he should be gaining weight but that might not be what the club wants, forget about what you are wanting or expecting to see in players and leave it to the club.

The club will be working at getting him to exactly where they want him to be physically so you shouldn't really care how he looks, trust the club and judge Hartung on his performance in 2016 not on a photograph of him in pre season training.

Again, this is a football forum, people are discussing their opinions. I've said this multiple times, and others in this thread have expressed the same. Myself, and others will continue to discuss our opinions, whether it's on Hartung's future role, his weight gain, or anything else.

This conversation is getting pointless because we're discussing it from two completely different levels. I will always support the club, and i by no means my opinion is better than the experts at the club. TBH i'm just excited to see a talented young player develop, and potentially fill a really big hole coming in the future.

 

[Brishawk]

What I meant with Hodge and Lewis was that losing weight hasn't negatively impacted their ability to play on the inside, or they still have the body strength to do so despite losing significant weight.

Again what you have just said is purely your own opinion in regards to Hartung, based on what you think you see in photos and what you see in games, so yes you are guessing as to how good his core strength actually is, I'm tipping the club has a better idea of how good his core strength is and if it is an issue they will be working on it.

Comparing Ellis and Hartung is laughable, completely different players and you're making assumptions on Hartung not improving his body based on a few photos, again laughable when you have idea what sort of results he would be achieving in the gym.

You're right, I don't know what the club wants from Hartung's body but I'm trusting them to achieve what they want to achieve with him instead of making ill informed judgements based on photos like you are. I don't claim to be an expert in everything like you seem to believe you are, I would rather trust the experts at the club who have got this team to win 3 on the trot.

Hartung will always be a fringe player? What are you on about? The kid has played 2 years of football and would have exceeded I think even the clubs own expectations, how on earth can you say he is always going to be a fringe player based on what he has done to date?

He is on par with Hill and if not even further advanced than he was after 2 years of his career, look at someone like Doc Duryea who took 4 years to get a game and 6 to cement his spot in the side, I think Hartung is well placed in comparison.

Again instead of putting so much weight in your own opinion lets wait and see how he performs during the course of the season.

Yes it is my opinion. As I have said before, I can point to multiple examples of what an AFL body looks like. You can't point to any like Hartung. Hartung may succeed with his body shape and other physical limitations but it is betting against history. History is littered with players that make promising starts but that they can never overcome a flaw in their capabilities. Tim Clarke played 15 games in his debut season (in a team that made it to the preliminary final). Steven Greene played 11 games in his debut in the same team. Pretty much their debut seasons were almost their best seasons as once our senior mids fell away they lost that protection of good service and their flaws were exposed. No doubt billy is more talented but theirs is a cautionary tale he should learn from.

 

[Brishawk]

Spot on mate.

Hey Brishawk check out these comments from Mitchell, but what would he know right?

source: http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-11-16/big-kid-mitchell-still-learning-the-ropes-after-four-flags

Perhaps that aspect of his football story is why Mitchell says what he loves best about Australian football is that, like the Manhattan skyline, Australia's game can find a spot for both talls and smalls.

It can also find a place for quick and slow, inside and outside, rough and tumble or refined and, says Mitchell, the game is getting even better as it evolves at making the most of those differences.

He suspects there is a lingering misconception among observers that you have to excel at everything to play the game now, whereas the game is moving the other way.

When Mitchell, Luke Hodge and Jordan Lewis first started that wasn't the case.

They worked on their running.

If Billy Hartung and Brad Hill had arrived in that era, they would have been sent to the weights room.

Now players are trained to become better at what they are good at, rather than being hammered to improve their weaknesses.

"Everyone had to be a good runner but now if you're not a great runner, there is still a place for you and if you are a great runner and not great at contested footy there is still a place for you," Mitchell said.

It's then up to the team and game plan to maximise individual strengths and minimise the effect of their weaknesses.

"[It's a] better spectacle to watch, a better game to play and I think it makes it more enjoyable because you're not having to work on something you're no good at," Mitchell said.

I'm not expecting him to be a contested ball star. I just don't want him being pushed out of contests. As the influence of the interchange restrictions increases players will need to be more generalists not more specialists.

 

[Main Man]

Yes it is my opinion. As I have said before, I can point to multiple examples of what an AFL body looks like. You can't point to any like Hartung. Hartung may succeed with his body shape and other physical limitations but it is betting against history. History is littered with players that make promising starts but that they can never overcome a flaw in their capabilities. Tim Clarke played 15 games in his debut season (in a team that made it to the preliminary final). Steven Greene played 11 games in his debut in the same team. Pretty much their debut seasons were almost their best seasons as once our senior mids fell away they lost that protection of good service and their flaws were exposed. No doubt billy is more talented but theirs is a cautionary tale he should learn from.

I'm not going to argue this with you any more, your opinion is misguided and ill informed, you are concerned about the body shape of a 3rd year footballer based on a few photos at training when you have no idea what the club wants from him.

Did you expect him to come back looking like the Hulk, as I said the club will have goals set for him if he is not reaching them then he will suffer the consequences, but really you shouldn't be concerning yourself with it as you have no idea what the club wants.

You might want it but that has very little to do with anything.

Anyway I will wait and see how Billy performs in 2016 and judge him on that instead of continually posting irrelevant photos of failed past players in an attempt to try and prove a point.

 

[Del33640]

I'm not disputing the primacy of strength over weight. And I certainly hope that billy is stronger. But there is no point celebrating a marginal improvement in running ability in Hartung. It might not present any actual improvement in match day performance. THAT IS THE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE

Def get what you're trying to say. The thing is, you can't see real strength - it's to do with the way your whole body works together, not with how much size you have in your hips and thighs etc. Of course that stuff helps, but Michael Tuck was a fine example of tremendous strength without size.

Marginal improvement in running ability can indicate improvement in fitness, which translates to a longer peak performance. That is actually a sizeable improvement in an endurance/power sport like AFL where mental and physical fatigue can affect skills and execution.

No-one is saying that a bit of extra size can't help. But we have those players you point out above, and Hartung is never going to be one without sacrificing what he's good at already - running, and running, and running again.

Look at Smith's GF if you're wanting to see the way a pure running player can develop strength over time without adding enough size to change their body shape. Smith has gone about the right way, even if we all might have been frustrated that he was outmuscled a few times along the way.

Billy is in the side to run, not to be a battering ram. He will naturally add that to his game with time, and do it better if he doesn't sacrifice speed and endurance to get it.

 

[threesixpio]

I'm not going to argue this with you any more, your opinion is misguided and ill informed, you are concerned about the body shape of a 3rd year footballer based on a few photos at training when you have no idea what the club wants from him.

Did you expect him to come back looking like the Hulk, as I said the club will have goals set for him if he is not reaching them then he will suffer the consequences, but really you shouldn't be concerning yourself with it as you have no idea what the club wants.

You might want it but that has very little to do with anything.

Anyway I will wait and see how Billy performs in 2016 and judge him on that instead of continually posting irrelevant photos of failed past players in an attempt to try and prove a point.

Bit harsh ...

 

[HR Roughnstuf]

I'm not expecting him to be a contested ball star. I just don't want him being pushed out of contests. As the influence of the interchange restrictions increases players will need to be more generalists not more specialists.

Sam Mitchell says otherwise. Direct quotes from him saying that football (I will read into this Hawthorn, because that is where he plays his football) is going the way where the club is focussing on improving strengths and playing to strengths instead of trying to iron out weaknesses.

You can keep hypothesising whatever you like but I will weight the opinion of the 4 time premiership player and premiership captain Sam Mitchell higher than yours. Less than a month ago he said the exact opposite of what you are saying.

 

[Gralin]

I like the idea of building a team based on players strengths and covering each others weaknesses.
Play your role sums it up pretty well.

Club would want a mix of inside and outside players, tall and short etc. Billy might not have the agility to play inside even with more bulk but one thing he can do is run all day to provide an option or cover when zoning or drag an opponent away from an area etc.

He also may be one of those people who really don't put much size on no matter what they do

 

[Glacier]

This thread turned a bit nasty

 

[Brishawk]

I'm not going to argue this with you any more, your opinion is misguided and ill informed, you are concerned about the body shape of a 3rd year footballer based on a few photos at training when you have no idea what the club wants from him.

Did you expect him to come back looking like the Hulk, as I said the club will have goals set for him if he is not reaching them then he will suffer the consequences, but really you shouldn't be concerning yourself with it as you have no idea what the club wants.

You might want it but that has very little to do with anything.

Anyway I will wait and see how Billy performs in 2016 and judge him on that instead of continually posting irrelevant photos of failed past players in an attempt to try and prove a point.

You are just mischaracterizing what I have said. Multiple times I have said I expect him to be thicker through the core in order to match the profile of successful short players in the AFL. If I want to concern myself with that then I will. Its my prerogative.

 

[Satchel]

clearly no training today

 

[Brishawk]

Sam Mitchell says otherwise. Direct quotes from him saying that football (I will read into this Hawthorn, because that is where he plays his football) is going the way where the club is focussing on improving strengths and playing to strengths instead of trying to iron out weaknesses.

You can keep hypothesising whatever you like but I will weight the opinion of the 4 time premiership player and premiership captain Sam Mitchell higher than yours. Less than a month ago he said the exact opposite of what you are saying.

Sam Mitchell added versatility to play on the HBF and HFF in the time since 2012. So while he says football has become more specialist in reality in the last few years the Hawthorn football club increased the versatility of its players from 2012 to 2013 and improved it again in 2014. In fact versatility has been a key difference between us and other teams. Suckling was likely picked ahead of Billy in the GF because of his ability to play HBF, Wing and HFF as opposed to just playing on the Wing.

 

[flinchfree]

Def get what you're trying to say. The thing is, you can't see real strength - it's to do with the way your whole body works together, not with how much size you have in your hips and thighs etc. Of course that stuff helps, but Michael Tuck was a fine example of tremendous strength without size.
.

So much this. Exactly what I was to post but had to read the whole thread first!
I'll offer this as my own inconsequential opinion.

Technique is every bit as important as strength when tackling - as above ask Tucky. 'Feeling' the space and knowing when to time your imposition into the contest every bit as important as strength to your likely ability to win the inside ball - ask Platts. And 'want to' is the most important of all in all such equations - ask all the great Hawthorn players. Should Billy want it bad enough, I'd back him to improve in any and all areas enough to be a fine Hawk player with a great career.

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

Sam Mitchell added versatility to play on the HBF and HFF in the time since 2012. So while he says football has become more specialist in reality in the last few years the Hawthorn football club increased the versatility of its players from 2012 to 2013 and improved it again in 2014. In fact versatility has been a key difference between us and other teams. Suckling was likely picked ahead of Billy in the GF because of his ability to play HBF, Wing and HFF as opposed to just playing on the Wing.

Versatility of roles doesn't mean you are not playing to your strengths though...

 

[HR Roughnstuf]

Sam Mitchell added versatility to play on the HBF and HFF in the time since 2012. So while he says football has become more specialist in reality in the last few years the Hawthorn football club increased the versatility of its players from 2012 to 2013 and improved it again in 2014. In fact versatility has been a key difference between us and other teams. Suckling was likely picked ahead of Billy in the GF because of his ability to play HBF, Wing and HFF as opposed to just playing on the Wing.

Can Sam Mitchell run? No. He can however utilise his strengths to perform different roles for the team.

Also its easy to pull out 2 skinny players that ended up being duds. The problem a player like Clarke has was yes he was skinny, and yes he wasn't very good, and yes he was known as a runner, but the difference is that Clarke was never a footballer. Hartung is a footballer, he has football nous. Clarke couldn't hit a target and couldn't kick further than 40m, this has little to do with body shape. Hartung has other attributes apart from his speed and endurance, although these are undoubtably his strength.

On the flip side, what about a player like Gunston? This is Gunston in his 3rd year. HE IS MEANT TO BE A KPF!!!!