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Transgender

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Discussion continuing in Part 2 found here

Transgender - Part 2

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like...
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igon value said:
Same sex couples are different - they know their preference actively denies them from procreating together and that they will have to find other means if they want kids. Both come to the table on equal footing and understanding.

To address your question in bold: yes. It's not just heterosexual people - lesbians who choose to preference typical women are accused of transphobia (or transmisogyny).
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Have you got any examples of where trans women accuse lesbian women of transphobia if they choose not to sleep with them?
 
smokingjacket said:
Indeed, in fact we've spoken about it before on the origins of marriage and coupling. My contribution was a reply to the poster who seems to start every one of his posts on culture war issues with the same "Cultural Marxism ruining our Greco-Roman-Christian values" when I don't necessarily see great crossover between Grecian and Christian values. Breitbart is waging a war on the Enlightenment and then want to claim the legacy of Greece? Not having it.

I've avoided this topic because I really do not care, but I understand why you think that it's important to have another left position on the topic when the issue just won't drift away in to minor irrelevancy. You've made plenty of reasonable arguments in good faith that aren't emotive and even thrown in some anecdotal evidence of where these issues can affect peoples lives in the workplace when you have a multicultural society with different cultures and different experience bumping up against one another. When you start to erode the scientific underpinnings of agreed upon things everyday life in a melting pot society, and then punish people for not being full bottle on the times when the scientific truth isn't the new truth, it is "problematic" to borrow the term. Deserves a reasoned response, not from me though.
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What, anecdotal and non emotive posts like referring to trans women as eunuchs in a dress?
 

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kirsti said:
What, anecdotal and non emotive posts like referring to trans women as eunuchs in a dress?
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It might have been phrased harshly but it was part of an argument on reproduction and how partners and society values reproductive ability.

You might point to the many examples from the classical world of East and West of eunuchs marrying and rising to power. Those were mostly examples from the imperial court and military power though. Unique examples where reproduction and rival family lines in an advisory capacity were a threat to the power of the emperor.
 
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smokingjacket said:
Indeed, in fact we've spoken about it before on the origins of marriage and coupling. My contribution was a reply to the poster who seems to start every one of his posts on culture war issues with the same "Cultural Marxism ruining our Greco-Roman-Christian values" when I don't necessarily see great crossover between Grecian and Christian values. Breitbart is waging a war on the Enlightenment and then want to claim the legacy of Greece? Not having it.

I've avoided this topic because I really do not care, but I understand why you think that it's important to have another left position on the topic when the issue just won't drift away in to minor irrelevancy. You've made plenty of reasonable arguments in good faith that aren't emotive and even thrown in some anecdotal evidence of where these issues can affect peoples lives in the workplace when you have a multicultural society with different cultures and different experience bumping up against one another. When you start to erode the scientific underpinnings of agreed upon things everyday life in a melting pot society, and then punish people for not being full bottle on the times when the scientific truth isn't the new truth, it is "problematic" to borrow the term. Deserves a reasoned response, not from me though.
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I'm not fond of the historical basis for anything as being a driving arrow for today - whether it is invoking early 20th century progressive movements (while ignoring the temperance movement or eugenics) or the days of the Greeks, who certainly did tolerate more diverse sexualities and identities than today, while inventing democracy - but also didn't police language the way we do and kept slaves so ... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What is there to say? There are biological realities, founded in science, currently being attacked by a political minority. Shouldn't really mean much, should it. But there is a broader body politic, often found in elite schools and universities, that is undermining what people worked very hard to establish as truth. Whether it's things like 'decolonising science' or 'transgender women are the same as cis women' or 'being deaf, autistic or schizophrenic is just a person's identity not disease that we can treat' this represents an attack on rationality in things that we should at least try to attempt establishing an objective truth. It is coming from this very narrow, elite version of left wing politics (increasing consisting of exceedingly wealthy people) that looks like a broadside against the average person who has no ability to keep up with these shifting sands of what is objectively correct.

And this is happening at the exact same time that other fields attempting to establish objective truths are being attacked by the right. Who are at least transparent in their attacks being founded in the profit motive or a regressive form of politics that wishes we were in pre-Copernican times. The left's assertion that this is taking us somewhere good ... I don't believe it.

To me it is as fraudulent as saying that higher levels of CO2 are good, because that's what plants crave.
 
Chief said:
Your kids and grand kids will read this and cringe.

Ironically they might excuse you because "that was just what people were taught at the time".



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You either need to improve your cognitive skills, or just stop pretending and admit you are here purely to try to push the PC side.

PS When you have a medical degree specializing in psychiatry and can refute the view of Dr. Paul R. McHugh, get back to me.
 
igon value said:
I'm not fond of the historical basis for anything as being a driving arrow for today - whether it is invoking early 20th century progressive movements (while ignoring the temperance movement or eugenics) or the days of the Greeks, who certainly did tolerate more diverse sexualities and identities than today, while inventing democracy - but also didn't police language the way we do and kept slaves so ... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What is there to say? There are biological realities, founded in science, currently being attacked by a political minority. Shouldn't really mean much, should it. But there is a broader body politic, often found in elite schools and universities, that is undermining what people worked very hard to establish as truth. Whether it's things like 'decolonising science' or 'transgender women are the same as cis women' or 'being deaf, autistic or schizophrenic is just a person's identity not disease that we can treat' this represents an attack on rationality in things that we should at least try to attempt establishing an objective truth. It is coming from this very narrow, elite version of left wing politics (increasing consisting of exceedingly wealthy people) that looks like a broadside against the average person who has no ability to keep up with these shifting sands of what is objectively correct.

And this is happening at the exact same time that other fields attempting to establish objective truths are being attacked by the right. Who are at least transparent in their attacks being founded in the profit motive or a regressive form of politics that wishes we were in pre-Copernican times. The left's assertion that this is taking us somewhere good ... I don't believe it.

To me it is as fraudulent as saying that higher levels of CO2 are good, because that's what plants crave.
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It's a fair argument, and it's worth repeating that anyone making the argument against some of these transgender initiatives on purely objective biological lines is not unsympathetic to the plight of transgender people who obviously have had early lives of immense pain. It's more that some people think that exporting the anti-science post-modernism of certain parts of the social sciences beyond campus life and the people indoctrinated there, would be disastrous for a multicultural society like Australia that needs science, truth and fact that we can lean on to guide us in creating "fairness" in policy across the board from economics to climate change.
 
smokingjacket said:
It's a fair argument, and it's worth repeating that anyone making the argument against some of these transgender initiatives on purely objective biological lines is not unsympathetic to the plight of transgender people who obviously have had early lives of immense pain. It's more that some people think that exporting the anti-science post-modernism of certain parts of the social sciences beyond campus life and the people indoctrinated there, would be disastrous for a multicultural society like Australia that needs science, truth and fact that we can lean on to guide us in creating "fairness" in policy across the board from economics to climate change.
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It's something I've noticed has spilt over more into media/social media platforms.
 
igon value said:
So you're advocating the abolition of all womens-only spaces and activities?
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Nah, as I said before I reckon a compromise can be reached. On toilets, on safe spaces, on everything. It takes more effort than standing still, this 'progress' thing, but the rewards are well worth it in my humble opinion.

ABSOLUTE MADMAN said:
Would anyone like to answer whether a person who was born biologically male who believes they are female but still maintains the advantages male bone structure should be able to compete in a weightlifting contest under the womens division and smash a bunch of records?
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Were you about when we were discussing transgender athletes in the Olympics earlier in the thread? Stuff like this

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ed1aaea2816_story.html?utm_term=.141f35e5f0d3

...Science provides a clear explanation for why, in many sports, trans women don’t maintain any athletic advantage. Hormone therapy for trans women typically involves a testosterone-blocking drug plus an estrogen supplement. As their testosterone levels approach female norms, trans women see a decrease in muscle mass, bone density and the proportion of oxygen-carrying red cells in their blood. The estrogen, meanwhile, boosts fat storage, especially around the hips. Together, these changes lead to a loss of speed, strength and endurance — all key components of athleticism...
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For a trangender to even compete in the Olympics they have to have had gender reassignment surgery and be on this hormone replacement therapy for a set amount of time.
 
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Geelong_Sicko said:
Nah, as I said before I reckon a compromise can be reached. On toilets, on safe spaces, on everything. It takes more effort than standing still, this 'progress' thing, but the rewards are well worth it in my humble opinion.



Nah, I reckon there's a compromise to be had here.
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I absolutely agree their should be common sense compromise on both sides of the trans debate.
 
Geelong_Sicko said:
Nah, as I said before I reckon a compromise can be reached. On toilets, on safe spaces, on everything. It takes more effort than standing still, this 'progress' thing, but the rewards are well worth it in my humble opinion.



Were you about when we were discussing transgender athletes in the Olympics earlier in the thread? Stuff like this



For a trangender to even compete in the Olympics they have to have had gender reassignment surgery and be on this hormone replacement therapy for a set amount of time.
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That criteria changed back in 2015, I posted my views on this a couple of pages ago
 

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igon value said:
The idea that these biological fundamentals of human relationships will adjust to some sort of utopian social inclusion is nonsense.
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Individual preference means there is never a right or a wrong answer when it comes to sexual pairings - you like who you like. Human intelligence means that there is always more to attraction than that base biological urge. As far as that goes I don't think anyone is saying everyone has to be open to sexual relations with all genders and those in between in their own lives though. Choice in relationships at a fundamental level, as you said, just doesn't work like that.

If your biological clock demands that you begin breeding, so be it. If it doesn't, so be it. Everyone needs a shot at happiness however, and as far as sexual expression goes freedom of association should rule the day.
 
kirsti said:
That criteria changed back in 2015, I posted my views on this a couple of pages ago
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That's right, looking back on it you said they'd shortened the amount of time required to be on the hormone replacements. You didn't agree with that. I don't know quite enough to be concrete sure, but I'd say the longer you were on HRT before competing the less advantage you would hold, so unless it was backed by the science I'd say two years is better than one.
 
Geelong_Sicko said:
As far as that goes I don't think anyone is saying everyone has to be open to sexual relations with all genders and those in between in their own lives though.
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That is exactly what many transgender activists argue.
 
Geelong_Sicko said:
That's right, looking back on it you said they'd shortened the amount of time required to be on the hormone replacements. You didn't agree with that. I don't know quite enough to be concrete sure, but I'd say the longer you were on HRT before competing the less advantage you would hold, so unless it was backed by the science I'd say two years is better than one.
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Given my own experience I would suggest if the male to female goes through a normal male puberty a 5 year window period after gender surgery has taken place.
 
It seems the AFL may have amended its transgender policy now being more aligned with the 2015 Olympic Ruling ie 12 months no surgery, I totally don't agree with this.
 
igon value said:
That is exactly what many transgender activists argue.
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What, that everyone must themselves be open to a sexual encounter with a transgender person/s should the occasion arise? That's definitely a bridge too far in my book, if they're trying to argue that. Everyone should be able to pursue their own sexual happiness (within the confines of consenting adulthood, that is) but you just can't impose sexual preference on a person.
 

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kirsti said:
Given my own experience I would suggest if the male to female goes through a normal male puberty a 5 year window period after gender surgery has taken place.
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See, that strengthens an argument for pre-teen transitioning in a way. To alter the body before puberty itself takes hold - I wonder if there are any athletes who transitioned before puberty, or is this something we'll only see in the next few years?
 
Geelong_Sicko said:
See, that strengthens an argument for pre-teen transitioning in a way. To alter the body before puberty itself takes hold - I wonder if there are any athletes who transitioned before puberty, or is this something we'll only see in the next few years?
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They are out there, the young Trans Texas Wrestler has suffered alot of bad publicity lately. Less then 20% of trans people play sport not because they don't want to but they fear how they will be treated.

I am in favour of giving trans children totally reversible puberty blockers.
 
kirsti said:
They are out there, the young Trans Texas Wrestler has suffered alot of bad publicity lately. Less then 20% of trans people play sport not because they don't want to but they fear how they will be treated.

I am in favour of giving trans children totally reversible puberty blockers.
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It makes sense.
 
Geelong_Sicko said:
What, that everyone must themselves be open to a sexual encounter with a transgender person/s should the occasion arise? That's definitely a bridge too far in my book, if they're trying to argue that. Everyone should be able to pursue their own sexual happiness (within the confines of consenting adulthood, that is) but you just can't impose sexual preference on a person.
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I posted this earlier - it's quite common though not ubiquitous

https://terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/
 
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