Transgender

[Gralin]

Discussion continuing in Part 2 found here

Transgender - Part 2

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like...

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[igon value]

I take great personal offence to you referring to trans people as being eunuchs in a dress, I have reported your.post.

Solipsism will win the day.

 

[kirsti]

I see this thread has just reverted again to people trying make others feel shame for not agreeing with them on this rather than addressing arguments they have no answer for.

Heck Gough flat out knows the contradictory positions he holds are untenable so has just dodged the same question several times.

Kirsti seems to take the position of "Am I out of touch? No it's the Doctors who are wrong."

The whole argument I am seeing come from another side of this issue actually has no scientific basis and seems to be "lets be nice to these disadvantaged people that we have pity for" and "you are all arseholes if you disagree".

Would anyone like to answer whether a person who was born biologically male who believes they are female but still maintains the advantages male bone structure should be able to compete in a weightlifting contest under the womens division and smash a bunch of records?

I already answered this but like you said Kirsti is "Am I out of touch".

 

[ABSOLUTE MADMAN]

Would Kirsti or Gough like to state their view on the transperson (born male) with the bone structure advantage entering the weightlifting contest in the womens division.

Should this be allowed to happen?

Is it unjust to the biologically born women with a Pelvis designed for child rearing?

 

[igon value]

Would Kirsti or Gough like to state their view on the trans male with the bone structure advantage entering the weightlifting contest in the womens division.

Should this be allowed to happen?

Is it unjust to the biologically born women with a Pelvis designed for child rearing?

Don't assume the gender of pelvises.

Men can give birth too. That is if they were born women, but hey, a few changes to a birth certificate and anything is possible.

 

[kirsti]

Would Kirsti or Gough like to state their view on the trans male with the bone structure advantage entering the weightlifting contest in the womens division.

Should this be allowed to happen?

Is it unjust to the biologically born women with a Pelvis designed for child rearing?

I don't know much about Lauren Hubbard the Nz Weightlifter I am not aware of her medical or transition history.

I am a firm believer that the IOC have got.it wrong with their new policy for trans athletes ie the removal of permanent gender surgery and reducing the time-frame from 2 years to 12 months.

I note the Herald Sun did an article on Emily Rowe a pre op trans woman from country Victoria. This article depicted Emily as being the first transgender AFL Player this is clearly incorrect with both myself and other trans women playing AFL before Emily.

The AFL current policy requires m to f players to be post operative by at least two years. I see this two year period to be the bare minimum requirement.

 

[WCE1987]

Maybe, but I'm also right. It took people coming out for others to realise that gay people are no different to them, this will also happen with trans people in the years to come, and attitudes like yours will be considered antiquated, and bigoted.

In some situation it isn't a personality or attitude matter. A lot of institution are divided on gender lines, and thus it makes for a interesting point of discussion.

Also in his recent special Dave Chappelle said " I support anyone's right to be who they want to be. My question is to what extent do I have to participate in your self-image?

As Igon raised the situation in the Office place, someone calling me Ms instead Mr wouldn't make be feel any less of a man.

Does me changing my use of language improve someone else's self-worth? Or is that something that can only be strengthen by the individual?

 

[kirsti]

In some situation it isn't a personality or attitude matter. A lot of institution are divided on gender lines, and thus it makes for a interesting point of discussion.

Also in his recent special Dave Chappelle said " I support anyone's right to be who they want to be. My question is to what extent do I have to participate in your self-image?

As Igon raised the situation in the Office place, someone calling me Ms instead Mr wouldn't make be feel any less of a man.

Does me changing my use of language improve someone else's self-worth? Or is that something that can only be strengthen by the individual?

How would you have to change your use of language if we met I told you my preferred pro noun was she?

 

[ABSOLUTE MADMAN]

I don't know much about Lauren Hubbard the Nz Weightlifter I am not aware of her medical or transition history.

I am a firm believer that the IOC have got.it wrong with their new policy for trans athletes ie the removal of permanent gender surgery and reducing the time-frame from 2 years to 12 months.

I note the Herald Sun did an article on Emily Rowe a pre op trans woman from country Victoria. This article depicted Emily as being the first transgender AFL Player this is clearly incorrect with both myself and other trans women playing AFL before Emily.

The AFL current policy requires m to f players to be post operative by at least two years. I see this two year period to be the bare minimum requirement.

You can lower testosterone and operate etc. This does not change bone structure and the make up of the male pelvis is an undeniable advantage in something like weightlifting.

EDIT: I appreciate addressing a question.

 

[WCE1987]

How would you have to change your use of language if we met I told you my preferred pro noun was she?

It wouldn't, was meaning in more generalised terms when I using 'me'.

If it was someone that physically appears as male, but than asked to be called 'she' it would just be confusing more than anything else.

Would you think less of yourself if I inadvertently called you man?

 

[kirsti]

You can lower testosterone and operate etc. This does not change bone structure and the make up of the male pelvis is an undeniable advantage in something like weightlifting.

Removing naturally occurring testosterone permanently has massive effects on both strength and endurance. From what I have seen from Lauren Hubbard she is no bigger or stronger then her competitors. Testosterone loss results in massive muscle loss and trans athletes that were of a larger build prior to transition seem to experience a greater disadvantage due to their muscles being unable to carry their larger bone structure.

In 2003 the IOC,s Stockholm Consensus decided to allow trans athletes to compete at the Olympic Games, 2004, 08, 12 and Rio 2016 trans athletes have been eligible to compete. No one gold, silver or bronze medal by any trans athlete in these 4 Olympic Games. Like I said previously I agreed with the 2003 IOC Stockholm Consensus as a bare minimum but I do not support their 2015 Consensus which removed permanent sterilisation and halved the waiting time.

 

[kirsti]

It wouldn't, was meaning in more generalised terms when I using 'me'.

If it was someone that physically appears as male, but than asked to be called 'she' it would just be confusing more than anything else.

Would you think less of yourself if I inadvertently called you man?

I wouldn't think less of myself but others might, miss gendering someone on purpose is wrong and thankfully illegal in the work place and also on the sporting fields.

 

[kirsti]

Imagine if every day of your life for the next 2 years you received massive testosterone injections, like Ben Johnson did you would gain massive improvements in your strength and endurance as long as you undertook an appropriate training regime.

Now imagine that you now experience a polar opposite that instead of getting testosterone injections every day you get a needle that immediately takes all naturally occurring testosterone out of your body. After two years any physical advantage you had is long gone. Post op women are actually at a distinct disadvantage in both strength and endurance to genetically born females as genetically born female produce testosterone naturally where as a post op trans women doesn't.

 

[ABSOLUTE MADMAN]

There are mechanical advantages in the male bone structure for activities like weightlifting that none of the abovementioned measures can account for.

 

[kirsti]

There are mechanical advantages in the male bone structure for activities like weightlifting that none of the abovementioned measures can account for.

Testosterone in an athletes body is more of an advantage particularly in sports like weightlifting that require endurance and strength.

 

[WCE1987]

Solipsism will win the day.

It was crass and I don't see the value it adds the conversation.

 

[WCE1987]

Testosterone in an athletes body is more of an advantage particularly in sports like weightlifting that require endurance and strength.

Thought men would naturally have broader shoulders, bigger hands that would help with grip strength, bigger muscles bellies in back, legs and gluteus.

 

[igon value]

[

It was crass and I don't see the value it adds the conversation.

The argument is that society will accept transgender woman or man as the same regular woman or man.

The reality is different. Most people will not accept an intimate partner who is fundamentally incapable of conceiving, as most relationships are founded on this (eventually) being a possibility. This is true so long as 95% of men and women are attracted to the opposite sex, interested in having children, and transgender remains an outlier.

The idea that these biological fundamentals of human relationships will adjust to some sort of utopian social inclusion is nonsense.

 

[igon value]

"Greco-Roman cultural roots" are probably not the best example you could use when talking about homosexuality, transexualism and transgenderism.

Strangely in those highly permissive times they still felt it necessary to regulate marriage as between a man and a woman.

I wonder why.

 

[kirsti]

Thought men would naturally have broader shoulders, bigger hands that would help with grip strength, bigger muscles bellies in back, legs and gluteus.

The average male does typically have a bigger bone structure then the average female. Females come in all sizes as do males, some genetically born females have huge hands compared to other some women are way beyond the average height of both males and females.

The permanent loss naturally occurring testosterone and the introduction of female hormones over time defiantly negates any bone structure advantage to a point where a trans athlete develops a massive disadvantage compared to genetically born females. Getting this time frame right is defiantly what the IOC has not got with their 2015 Ruling on allowing trans athletes to compete.

 

[WCE1987]

The argument is that society will accept transgender woman or man as the same regular woman or man.

The reality is different. Most people will not accept an intimate partner who is fundamentally incapable of conceiving, as most relationships are founded on this (eventually) being a possibility. This is true so long as 95% of men and women are attracted to the opposite sex, interested in having children, and transgender remains an outlier.

The idea that these biological fundamentals of human relationships will adjust to some sort of utopian social inclusion is nonsense.

Of course their is a biological barrier, but that hasn't stopped same sex-couples from adoption or finding other means.

From previous posts I gather you're implying that by a hetro person not choosing to partner with a trans person, they're now being labelled transphobic?

IMO I believe as society advances future generations will have less concern/care with gender when it comes to who they partner with.

 

[kirsti]

The argument is that society will accept transgender woman or man as the same regular woman or man.

The reality is different. Most people will not accept an intimate partner who is fundamentally incapable of conceiving, as most relationships are founded on this (eventually) being a possibility. This is true so long as 95% of men and women are attracted to the opposite sex, interested in having children, and transgender remains an outlier.

The idea that these biological fundamentals of human relationships will adjust to some sort of utopian social inclusion is nonsense.

I was aware of my gender dysphoria at three and a half years of age that was back in 1968. Not once in any of my counselling was I told that a magic wand would be waved and one day I would wake up and be a genetically born female. I was provided with all the pros and cons and I made the personal decision at 33yrs of age that I could no longer keep living my life as a male.

I pretty much had the male body and life that most men would only ever dream of having but internally I could not relate to my body. I commenced my transition in 2000 having undergone gender confirmation surgery in 2006 later that year I applied for and was granted a Nsw Female Birth Certificate.

Having this birth certificate didn't change my past or suddenly make me a genetically born female. What this certificate enabled me to achieve was great self relief and happiness and also the ability under every law in Australia to be treated as a female.

 

[kirsti]

Strangely in those highly permissive times they still felt it necessary to regulate marriage as between a man and a woman.

I wonder why.

Pity the Roman Catholics didn't regulate way back then to stop the sexual abuse of children in their custody.

 

[igon value]

Of course their is a biological barrier, but that hasn't stopped same sex-couples from adoption or finding other means.

From previous posts I gather you're implying that by a hetro person not choosing to partner with a trans person, they're now being labelled transphobic?

IMO I believe as society advances future generations will be less concern with gender and make decisions of who they becomes partners with more personality and other traits.

Same sex couples are different - they know their preference actively denies them from procreating together and that they will have to find other means if they want kids. Both come to the table on equal footing and understanding.

To address your question in bold: yes. It's not just heterosexual people - lesbians who choose to preference typical women are accused of transphobia (or transmisogyny).

 

[igon value]

Pity the Roman Catholics didn't regulate way back then to stop the sexual abuse of children in their custody.

One might argue that because the Roman Catholic church was an outgrowth of the Roman elite in the first millennium that it is exactly why they didn't.

 

[smokingjacket]

Strangely in those highly permissive times they still felt it necessary to regulate marriage as between a man and a woman.

I wonder why.

Indeed, in fact we've spoken about it before on the origins of marriage and coupling. My contribution was a reply to the poster who seems to start every one of his posts on culture war issues with the same "Cultural Marxism ruining our Greco-Roman-Christian values" when I don't necessarily see great crossover between Grecian and Christian values. Breitbart is waging a war on the Enlightenment and then want to claim the legacy of Greece? Not having it.

I've avoided this topic because I really do not care, but I understand why you think that it's important to have another left position on the topic when the issue just won't drift away in to minor irrelevancy. You've made plenty of reasonable arguments in good faith that aren't emotive and even thrown in some anecdotal evidence of where these issues can affect peoples lives in the workplace when you have a multicultural society with different cultures and different experience bumping up against one another. When you start to erode the scientific underpinnings of agreed upon things everyday life in a melting pot society, and then punish people for not being full bottle on the times when the scientific truth isn't the new truth, it is "problematic" to borrow the term. Deserves a reasoned response, not from me though.