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Transgender

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Discussion continuing in Part 2 found here

Transgender - Part 2

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like...
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igon value said:
As I said, once you bring personal morality into it, you open yourself up to ad hominem. Nothing of what I said is personal outside the topic of the subject of discussion. Just quit with your self-righteousness.
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Can you actually tell me how I'm being self-righteous? Is there any way I can still hold to my values without being self-righteous?
 
Geelong_Sicko said:
Can you actually tell me how I'm being self-righteous? Is there any way I can still hold to my values without being self-righteous?
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Easily - explore the counter argument. You make claims to empathy yet refuse to consider the voices of those who oppose what you believe. Do you not see it from the perspective of women who oppose those men who are claiming to be women intruding on their spaces? Why would you diminish women's rights and all that they've fought for?

Why must it be legislated that people must use words like 'ze' to address others, or acknowledge concepts like pangender or agender, otherwise risk heavy handed action from the state? To what end are we progressing? To whose detriment is such legislation?

Furthermore, how does anyone keep a mental map of all these requirements? Given linguists state pronouns are a closed linguistic class (i.e. they are mentally fixed) what does modifying them actually mean? Given linguists (Chomsky et al) assert that pronouns are immutable - how can you or anyone controvert experts in their domain and assert otherwise? This groups you with Trump supporters.

You argue from the point of view that the world gets better with each piece of progressive legislation. Well it didn't in the case of prohibition, it didn't in the case of eugenics. Make a cogent argument, explore the topic, not just make empty appeals to tolerance and progress.
 
igon value said:
You make claims to empathy yet refuse to consider the voices of those who oppose what you believe. Do you not see it from the perspective of women who oppose those men who are claiming to be women intruding on their spaces? Why would you diminish women's rights and all that they've fought for?

Why must it be legislated that people must use words like 'ze' to address others, or acknowledge concepts like pangender or agender, or risk heavy handed action from the state? To what end are we progressing? To whose detriment is such legislation?

Furthermore, how does anyone keep a mental map of all these requirements? Given linguists state pronouns are a closed linguistic category (i.e. they are mentally fixed) what does modifying them actually mean?

You argue from the point of view that the world gets better with each piece of progressive legislation. Well it didn't in the case of prohibition, it didn't in the case of eugenics. Make a cogent argument, explore the topic, not just make empty appeals to tolerance and progress.
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To my mind, all it actually means is a bit of recognition for those wanting it. As a straight white male it doesn't personally matter to me one iota, but it matters to them. I'm cool with that. It would not bother me to use new pronouns as they come into use.

There's always going to be those who oppose. Those who are put out by change. And sometimes yeah, people have to compromise. You're right in that it's good to explore the counter-argument, and often it works out that in doing so a solution can be found. Bathroom issues? Maybe male/female/unisex is the way to go while society comes to grips with transitioning ideas.

Just on compromise, how much of this topic have you considered from the transgender point of view? Do you see any validity in their wish for recognition?
 
Geelong_Sicko said:
To my mind, all it actually means is a bit of recognition for those wanting it. As a straight white male it doesn't personally matter to me one iota, but it matters to them. I'm cool with that. It would not bother me to use new pronouns as they come into use.
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Why must others be forced to use them?

What other modifications to language would you accept being legislated for? Changes to the definite article?

There's always going to be those who oppose. Those who are put out by change. And sometimes yeah, people have to compromise. You're right in that it's good to explore the counter-argument, and often it works out that in doing so a solution can be found. Bathroom issues? Maybe male/female/unisex is the way to go while society comes to grips with transitioning ideas.
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Unisex everything? Keep in mind why we have female only spaces - not just toilets.

Just on compromise, how much of this topic have you considered from the transgender point of view? Do you see any validity in their wish for recognition?
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I have known a few, both transgender men and women. Some are reasonable people. Some have gamed the system. One I worked with tried to get a colleague who was a Chinese national sacked because he referred to them as a 'he' - despite the implicit language barriers he was working with and the whole concept of gendered pronouns being beyond him (not a concept in China). She was also a malingerer who repeatedly claimed sick days because of "women's issues" - despite the fact that she was physiologically not a woman.
 
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deltablues said:
It is all part of the culture wars waged by the soldiers of the Left, of which gender/race/identity politics are some of the weapons of choice. And it is a worry to those who value and wish to preserve Western culture and its institutions, particularly freedom of speech.
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I think this to be somewhat peculiar. I don't disagree with what you say about the hideousness of post-modernism. However, given its embrace by 'the left', that this movement's major influence is the work of Martin Heidegger, whom some see as the most important, serious philosopher of the right during the 20th century, seems ironic and counter-intuitive.

I see equally strange parallels in 'the left's' trenchant defence of that most fascist of religions - Mohammedanism. Another example might be 'the left's' adoption of the Eureka flag as their emblem, particularly by the building union. To use the symbol of a rapacious and ecologically destructive movement, devoted to not paying taxes concommitant to turning the landscape of most of central-western Victoria into a moonscape (to this day), seems incongruous to say the least.

There are so many meetings I must have missed at which these things were decided. It could be my fault, partially. Very early on, the mindless repetition of hackneyed catchphrases and terms like, 'the bourgoisie', and, 'the proletariat' turned me off formal politics of either persuasion.

End (largely irrelevant) rant
 
Gough said:
If you go out to deliberately make life unpleasant for anyone you're an arseh*le. That's what you guys are supporting here. Even if you regard transgender people as mentally ill, which I don't, why would you want to take a mental illness, mock it, and then make life more difficult for them? Would you do that for people with clinical depression, or anorexia?
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I agree with this. In particular, bullying a group of people known to have a high rate of suicide is abhorrent (although I don't think anyone here is condoning bullying).

However, I don't think trying to "kick manners into" people is the answer. Legislating against what people can say will lead to a backlash when those people are able to speak anonymously, ie on the internet. Pronoun laws and 18C are methods of papering over the cracks, without addressing the real problem. Education and civil debate are surely better solutions.
 
skilts said:
I think this to be somewhat peculiar. I don't disagree with what you say about the hideousness of post-modernism. However, given its embrace by 'the left', that this movement's major influence is the work of Martin Heidegger, whom some see as the most important, serious philosopher of the right during the 20th century, seems ironic and counter-intuitive.

I see equally strange parallels in 'the left's' trenchant defence of that most fascist of religions - Mohammedanism. Another example might be 'the left's' adoption of the Eureka flag as their emblem, particularly by the building union. To use the symbol of a rapacious and ecologically destructive movement, devoted to not paying taxes concommitant to turning the landscape of most of central-western Victoria into a moonscape (to this day), seems incongruous to say the least.

There are so many meetings I must have missed at which these things were decided. It could be my fault, partially. Very early on, the mindless repetition of hackneyed catchphrases and terms like, 'the bourgoisie', and, 'the proletariat' turned me off formal politics of either persuasion.

End (largely irrelevant) rant
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I agree, especially the bolded.
 
TimmeT said:
At the end of the day if you're born male, you're male...
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Not in the eyes of many laws. I was issued a male Nsw birth certificate in 1965, in 2006 I was issued a female Nsw Birth Certificate.
 
kirsti said:
Not in the eyes of many laws. I was issued a male Nsw birth certificate in 1965, in 2006 I was issued a female Nsw Birth Certificate.
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Good point i guess their would always be the legal sense, vs the physiological chromosome sense.
 
Gough said:
kirsti do you think race is a social construct? Apparently opinion on this is vital before you can discuss the issue at hand?
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No I dont but racism, homophobia, transphobia, sexism I suggest they defiantly are.

Now 17 pages later be nice to discuss the issue at hand.
 

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kirsti said:
Tell me more about my medical history?
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Are you saying that when you were issued a male birth certificate in 1965, the doctors and nurses were wrong? If they can be wrong about that what else should we distrust them on? Are anti-vaxxers right? Are HIV conspiracy theorists?

It seems anything can be possible, we really do live in a post-fact age.
 
The International Olympic Committee I suggest have got it wrong with its current consensus for male to female athletes. The removal of permanent gender confirmation surgery and the reduced period of having appropriate hormonal levels I feel has tipped the scales to far in favour of trans athletes.

The AFL maintains its policies in accordance with the IOC,s 2003 Stockholm Consensus which I feel was much fairer for both the trans and non trans athletes.

The Herald Sun published an article yesterday about a male to female transgender who is soon to make her debut as a female AFL player in Shepparton. This trans women has not had any surgeries and is only nine months into HRT. The VWAFL has amended their bylaws to allow self identification and proof gender identity via a State issued ID, not necessarily a birth certificate. No hormonal levels are required to be achieved. This policy once again I do not agree with.
 

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igon value said:
Are you saying that when you were issued a male birth certificate in 1965, the doctors and nurses were wrong? If they can be wrong about that what else should we distrust them on? Are anti-vaxxers right? Are HIV conspiracy theorists?

It seems anything can be possible, we really do live in a post-fact age.
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Yes many people have been issued incorrect birth certificates a quick look at a babies genitalia is often not enough to distinguish gender many variations of chromosome makeup exist its not just xy and xx. Many many mistakes have been made by doctors in the past have you ever heard the term intersexed.
 
kirsti said:
Yes many people have been issued incorrect birth certificates a quick look at a babies genitalia is often not enough to distinguish gender many variations of chromosome makeup exist its not just xy and xx. Many many mistakes have been made by doctors in the past have you ever heard the term intersexed.
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Yes I have. But we should take the doctors at their word.

I have no issue with the state issuing a different identity to transgender people that is in line with what gender you identify as, but to change a birth certificate - which is a representation of the facts as they stood at the time is a different matter.

This is the problem with transgender politics, it makes appeals to falsehoods being turned into truths.
 
igon value said:
Yes I have. But we should take the doctors at their word.

I have no issue with the state issuing a different identity to transgender people that is in line with what gender you identify as, but to change a birth certificate - which is a representation of the facts as they stood at the time is a different matter.

This is the problem with transgender politics, it makes appeals to falsehoods being turned into truths.
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And who do you feel are driving what you call transgender politics?

Have you ever considered a second opinion in your life, I suggest not all doctors are the wholly grail particularly in gender and endocrine areas. Many doctors put their religious faith before medicine in contentious areas of medicine.
 
igon value said:
I'm fine, thanks.

No one specifically - it is a collective madness.
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How would you like transgender people to be treated in both society and on the sporting fields?
 
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