Transgender

[Gralin]

Discussion continuing in Part 2 found here

Transgender - Part 2

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[igon value]

I don't know the answers to the other questions, but on biology science has changed so much. Medical science especially. People uncomfortable in their skins can actually do something about it beyond putting a dress or some trousers on.

Fair enough, I reckon. I mean, I understand the conservative mindset of 'I don't understand why people think this way now, it shouldn't be allowed, why can't things ever stay the same as they were when I was growing up?'. The fear of change, and the lack of understanding associated with it is a real thing and it is truly terrifying for some people.

But that's life. That's time. It rolls on regardless.

What exactly are you waffling on about?

How is it a fair go for women if men pretending to be women get access to spaces and things women need to be separate from men?

 

[Ruck Machine]

I had an interesting discussion with a former colleague today.

We were discussing an article about a transgender person, in particular the following quote.

As a transgender woman in a predominately male-dominated industry, IBM’s inclusive work environment has given me the freedom to be myself and allowed me to progress my career.

Notice how the transgender person refers to themselves as "a transgender woman" ... not a woman.

The fact that they self identify as 'other' is interesting. i.e. They don't believe they're an actual woman but something else entirely.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

you understand the conservative mind set, work it out

i am not personally too bothered. i just read your words and found them interesting. So i added some of my own

But you make counter-arguments. What informs that? Why is exclusion good and inclusion bad? I'll go first; inclusion is good because we're all part of human society no matter what we wear and what colour our skin/gender is or what we want it to be. If people feel included they're much more likely to have a positive mindset regarding society and societal problems.

Exclusion to me is a negative. If people feel excluded they feel resentful. Animosity grows.

 

[Gough]

I had an interesting discussion with a former colleague today.

We were discussing an article about a transgender person, in particular the following quote.



Notice how the transgender person refers to themselves as "a transgender woman" ... not a woman.

The fact that they self identify as 'other' is interesting. i.e. They don't believe they're an actual woman but something else entirely.

You've come to that conclusion based on a sample size of one?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

What exactly are you waffling on about?

How is it a fair go for women if men pretending to be women get access to spaces and things women need to be separate from men?

I said a fair go for all. There are unisex toilets and facilities like that already in existence and none seem bothered by using shared facilities.

 

[Ruck Machine]

You've come to that conclusion based on a sample size of one?

I have concluded nothing (you're projecting). I found it interesting.

 

[igon value]

I said a fair go for all. There are unisex toilets and facilities like that already in existence and none seem bothered by using shared facilities.

None seem bothered? What an odd call. How many women do you know?

I know plenty of women who would never use public toilets that are explicitly unisex. Same goes for change rooms, gyms etc.

 

[Gough]

None seem bothered? What an odd call. How many women do you know?

I know plenty of women who would never use public toilets that are explicitly unisex. Same goes for change rooms, gyms etc.

And here we are back at the extremes of the issue, making a simple one like a third option on a census infinitely more complex that it actually is.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

None seem bothered? What an odd call. How many women do you know?

None using the facilities seemed bothered, is what I meant.

 

[cannot]

I said a fair go for all. There are unisex toilets and facilities like that already in existence and none seem bothered by using shared facilities.

i would guess there is a significant silent minority of females that are not too thrilled

 

[igon value]

But you make counter-arguments. What informs that? Why is exclusion good and inclusion bad? I'll go first; inclusion is good because we're all part of human society no matter what we wear and what colour our skin/gender is or what we want it to be. If people feel included they're much more likely to have a positive mindset regarding society and societal problems.

Exclusion to me is a negative. If people feel excluded they feel resentful. Animosity grows.

Sounds like you got a degree in empty motherhood statements.

Guess you're opposed to AFLW.

 

[igon value]

None using the facilities seemed bothered, is what I meant.

Well except those who choose not to because of the implicit unwelcoming presence of men.

 

[igon value]

And here we are back at the extremes of the issue, making a simple one like a third option on a census infinitely more complex that it actually is.

Read back to the bump: it's about men competing as women in sports. Eg the formerly male NZ weightlifter who smoked the women's competition in Melbourne.

 

[Gough]

Read back to the bump: it's about men competing as women in sports. Eg the formerly male NZ weightlifter who smoked the women's competition in Melbourne.

Fair enough, you're talking about toilets, and changing rooms though.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Sounds like you got a degree in empty motherhood statements.

Guess you're opposed to AFLW.

Empty motherhood statements? What does that mean? As for the other thing, I'm not opposed to gender-based competitition. As I've already said, if it's emphatically proven that transgender athletes hold advantage over their adopted gender in competition, then this needs to change.

So far I don't think it has been proven beyond doubt.

 

[igon value]

Fair enough, you're talking about toilets, and changing rooms though.

I'm talking about all spaces and things we segregate in the interests of women. From one point of view transgender acceptance into these spaces is more inclusion.

From another point of view it is further priveleged male incursion into women's lives.

 

[igon value]

Empty motherhood statements? What does that mean? As for the other thing, I'm not opposed to gender-based competitition. As I've already said, if it's emphatically proven that transgender athletes hold advantage over their adopted gender in competition, then this needs to change.

So far I don't think it has been proven beyond doubt.

It needs to be emphatically proven that they don't hold an advantage. Why subject women to unfairness in the interests of a very small minority of men?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

It needs to be emphatically proven that they don't hold an advantage, not the vice versa.

Wouldn't a scientific study prove it one way or the other anyway? And there is still the "nature's whim" genetic variance among humans in general that may spice results up either way as well.

 

[Gough]

I'm talking about all spaces and things we segregate in the interests of women. From one point of view transgender acceptance into these spaces is more inclusion.

From another point of view it is further priveleged male incursion into women's lives.

You talk like female to male transgender people don't exist.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

You talk like female to male transgender people don't exist.

Are they less common?

 

[Ruck Machine]

Read back to the bump: it's about men competing as women in sports. Eg the formerly male NZ weightlifter who smoked the women's competition in Melbourne.

Current system is not fair.

Based on self identification and testosterone levels ... does not take into account muscle/bone mass and whether they still have a ****.

I would personally like to see men who transitioned after the age of 18 banned from women's sport unless they're ****-less.

 

[igon value]

You talk like female to male transgender people don't exist.

I know of one personally, but they extraordinarily rare, and in general men don't feel threatened by them to the degree women do by the opposite.

 

[Scotland]

Female to male is rare for the simplistic reason that it's easier to cut something off that's there than sew something on that isn't. There are plenty of females with male characteristics, though.

HB2 caused a massive shit storm in the US and from what I can gather basically translates to 'you have a wang, you go in the bathroom with the urinals. You don't, you don't'.

Bathrooms are really only segregated for the benefit (privacy, safety etc.) of women. Where is this going to go going forward?

 

[igon value]

For those who think this is solely a conservative argument, the Women's Liberation Front in the US recently sued the US government to reverse the changes to Title IX.

You can read their reasoning here:

http://womensliberationfront.org/wolf-v-u-s/#qe-faq-2186

 

[cannot]

its Ally McBeals fault