Vegan and Vegetarian Diets

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StiffArm said:
Then we move on to risks of meat: Cancer causing. Higher risk factors for diabetes, heart disease and hypertension. BIG time linked to obesity, which is the #1 illness our society deals with.
Humans are capable of eating animal protein, but to suggest that as a species we are thriving on our current diet is laughable. Whether it is diet alone or other factors, vegans tend to be healthier across the large population studies.

It is perfectly reasonable to look at all the risk factors and go vegan for dietary/health reasons alone.
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Any credibility you may have had was lost here.
 
Big Cox 88 said:
Any credibility you may have had was lost here.
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Cancer causing according to the World Health Organisation.

All studies I've seen put vegans about 5 BMI points clear of omnivores.

As far as cardiovascular hypertension and diabeties risks, you'll find info below.

HEALTH EFFECTS OF VEGAN DIETS
Vegan diets are usually higher in dietary fiber, magnesium, folic acid, vitamins C and E, iron, and phytochemicals, and they tend to be lower in calories, saturated fat and cholesterol, long-chain n–3 (omega-3) fatty acids, vitamin D, calcium, zinc, and vitamin B-12 (8). In general, vegetarians typically enjoy a lower risk of cardiovascular disease (CVD), obesity, type 2 diabetes, and some cancers (3). A vegan diet appears to be useful for increasing the intake of protective nutrients and phytochemicals and for minimizing the intake of dietary factors implicated in several chronic diseases (9). In a recent report (10), different plant food groups were rated with respect to their metabolic-epidemiologic evidence for influencing chronic disease reduction. According to the evidence criteria of the World Health Organization and Food and Agriculture Organization (WHO/FAO), cancer risk reduction associated with a high intake of fruit and vegetables was assessed as probable or possible, risk of CVD reduction as convincing, whereas lower risk of osteoporosis was assessed as probable (10). The evidence for a risk-reducing effect of consuming whole grains was assessed as possible for colorectal cancer and probable for type 2 diabetes and CVD. The evidence for a risk-reducing effect of consuming nuts was assessed as probable for CVD (10). Source

I wouldn't have thought ANY of those claims were contested, unless you're getting antsy that I should have qualified "some" cancers and "some" meats.
 
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StiffArm said:
Other bloke did get it in one, rendering your obligatory reply to everything I post completely redundant in this case. If you read earlier I had already responded to that. Please contribute to the conversation if you're going to post.
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You made the point earlier? You mean after I already posted...
Probably easier to just say you were rambling in a non sensical manner, and answer his question (which you did after about 5 other posts of rambling)
 

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StiffArm said:
I earlier gave my opinions on backyard chooks. Don't see it as a big issue, also gave my reasons for not considering it myself.

For reference I was responding to this.

An appeal to authority. I responded with my experience with chooks that happened to be in a semi-commercial operation. Was simply giving an anecdote of my own experience to counter above claim.
As soon as money becomes involved (ie selling of extra eggs) then at some level I think the relationship becomes exploitative and prone to less good conditions for the chooks. Don't have an issue with a situation where money is not involved.


A wide, reasonably unhelpful generalization. I zoomed to try to show that unless a person is directly raising their own backyard chickens, then it is likely to be cruel on some level.
It is hardly nuts to thus refrain from eating a food that is >99% sourced from VERY cruel conditions.
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You were replying directly to Esti talking about his backyard chooks, which has absolutely zero relevance to your experience in a commercial egg operation.

I do agree with you last paragraph though, so call 'free range' is often hardly better at all than battery operations (and I'd guess that very few consumers know this)
 
StiffArm said:
Not at anywhere near the rate. Naturally chickens would lay maybe a dozen eggs a year, and live till they were about 10.
Egg layers will churn out around 300 eggs a year and die within 2 years from calcium and other nutrient deficiencies.

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Wrong, wrong and wrong.
 
Big Cox 88 said:
Any credibility you may have had was lost here.
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Why? What has he said that is wrong?

Nothing about that is untrue. Just because you don't want to hear it, doesn't make it wrong.
 
Van_Power said:
Why? What has he said that is wrong?

Nothing about that is untrue. Just because you don't want to hear it, doesn't make it wrong.
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There is a difference between meat and processed meat (includes meat from fast food joints). Also other factors like smoking, alcohol and high carb intake are not taken into account in those "studies" of meat eating and mortality.
 
Big Cox 88 said:
There is a difference between meat and processed meat (includes meat from fast food joints). Also other factors like smoking, alcohol and high carb intake are not taken into account in those "studies" of meat eating and mortality.
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I hope you then have an understanding of how bullshit it is that I have to put with random Joe and Sally sprouting bullshit to me about how unsafe my vegetarian diet is when it's simply not true.
 
Bazzar said:
TBH, I never hear anyone say a vegetarian diet is unsafe. That's just not true.
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You just quoted a bunch of vitamins etc to try and show that we need to supplement our diet. Then you said not eating meat is worse than eating meat.

Which is it? You seem to back-peddle often - most likely the result of not fully understanding the issue, but happy to put your two cents in anyway to suggest you know best.
 
Van_Power said:
You just quoted a bunch of vitamins etc to try and show that we need to supplement our diet. Then you said not eating meat is worse than eating meat.

Which is it? You seem to back-peddle often - most likely the result of not fully understanding the issue, but happy to put your two cents in anyway to suggest you know best.
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I quoted that as I was under the impression you are vegan.

Check my posting history, I have Always supported a vegetarian lifestyle if people choose to go down that path.
 
Big Cox 88 said:
There is a difference between meat and processed meat (includes meat from fast food joints). Als?o other factors like smoking, alcohol and high carb intake are not taken into account in those "studies" of meat eating and mortality.
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The processed meat link is proven, the link to red meat is "probable", meaning the correlation is there, they don't yet have definitive proof on the causation.
There is not evidence for fish or chicken causing cancer at this stage. It was a small part of the post in its entirety, and your response was an emotive "you've lost all credibility".

Such hypocrisy. Do we now discount everything Bazzar has to say given he claimed a vegan diet is deficient in Vit E and Vit A, for which there is ZERO evidence?

235px-Monckton.jpg

"I found 35 errors in an inconvenient truth, and therefore global warming is also a lie"
 

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StiffArm said:
You've taken every bit of literature you can find on potential dangers and then listed all the reasons as though they are inherent flaws.

Poor omega 3:6 ratio
only if you don't eat enough omega 3 (easily prevented by eating a couple of tablespoons of flax or chia with your breakfast for example), or eat way too much omega 6 (oils for example)
Lack of b12
Easily possible to get from fortified drinks and cereals, just as most meat products are now fortified. Given that b12 deficiency is common in both vegetarians AND omnivores, it makes sense to supplement as it is cheap and easy not to become deficient.
Vit K2
Now you're starting to spout old debunked stuff.
Spinach, broccoli, asparagus, collard greens, Swiss chard, bok choy, peas, parsley and lentils also contain high amounts of Vitamin K. Bacteria in our gut transforms it from K1 to K2 really efficiently.
Vit A
Almost impossible not to get recommended daily value on a vegan diet. 9 of the top 10 food sources are vegan, and a single sweet potato gives you 500% RDV. Now you're just spouting nonsense.
Vit E
Mostly plant sourced, again very hard to not get enough. Same source as above: Numerous foods provide vitamin E. Nuts, seeds, and vegetable oils are among the best sources of alpha-tocopherol, and significant amounts are available in green leafy vegetables and fortified cereals.
Creatine/Carnocine
Body metabolizes plenty for average people. If you're body building then you should be supplementing anyway. Given the strongest man in the world is vegan and there are many vegan athletes I'd suggest it isn't a problem.
DHA
This really belongs under Omega3:6, but you're busy trying to bolster your list. Vegans get plenty of ALA omega3, and the body naturally converts it to DHA. Studies show this conversion at between 3 and 5%, and actually higher among people who are vegan which suggests the body adapts. Again, 2 or 3 spoonfuls of seeds OR fortified foods such as cereals or milks and you're fine.
Iron
Vegans have been shown to have lower reserve iron, but the exact same rates of anemia which suggests that it is not a dietary concern. If you're going to be anemic it won't matter what your diet is. Plenty of iron available in vegetables, and it is absorbed better with vitamin C which is also abundant. Not really a concern.
butyrate
Now you're just having a laugh. All the top sources are vegan, and moreover much more likely to be eaten by people on a vegan diet (ie wholegrains).
Soy
Absolute red herring. Regardless thoughts on how healthy soy is for a person (very mixed literature), it is easy to have a soy free vegan diet if one so chooses.

So out of all that, we have "risks of a vegan diet: probably supplement on b12, and make sure you're getting enough omega 3. Be more careful with macronutrients when pregnant or with young children".

Then we move on to risks of meat: Cancer causing. Higher risk factors for diabetes, heart disease and hypertension. BIG time linked to obesity, which is the #1 illness our society deals with.
Humans are capable of eating animal protein, but to suggest that as a species we are thriving on our current diet is laughable. Whether it is diet alone or other factors, vegans tend to be healthier across the large population studies.

It is perfectly reasonable to look at all the risk factors and go vegan for dietary/health reasons alone.
Click to expand...

Stiff Arm- "You've taken every bit of literature you can find on potential dangers and then listed all the reasons as though they are inherent flaws"

Poor omega 3:6 ratio
only if you don't eat enough omega 3 (easily prevented by eating a couple of tablespoons of flax or chia with your breakfast for example), or eat way too much omega 6 (oils for example)

Plant based omega 3 is very high in 6, hence the poor ratio, the majority of vegans have excessive 6 just from the nature of the diet (vegetable oils are the are the worst for excessive 6) so it's almost impossible without going to the trouble of calculating then adding the likes of flax and chia to achieve a good balance, even then Flax (ALA) must be converted by the body into the different forms (DHA and EPA) before it can be utilized. The human body isn't very efficient doing that. From my quick search that means you need 40 grams of flax oil for your body to get just 1g of usable omega 3, omega 3 in krill and fish are already in the form of DHA and EPA so they are far more efficient sources.

Lack of b12
Easily possible to get from fortified drinks and cereals, just as most meat products are now fortified. Given that b12 deficiency is common in both vegetarians AND omnivores, it makes sense to supplement as it is cheap and easy not to become deficient.

I'll give you the "fortified" foods, but serious? you need to rely on foods that have been "tampered" with.
What did the vegans of the past do before fortification?

And most plant like fermented soy foods (and seaweed) contain B12 analogs called cobamides that block the actual intake of true B12

And PMSL at it being common for omnivores to be deficient in B12, that is just dumb.

Vit K2
Now you're starting to spout old debunked stuff.
Spinach, broccoli, asparagus, collard greens, Swiss chard, bok choy, peas, parsley and lentils also contain high amounts of Vitamin K. Bacteria in our gut transforms it from K1 to K2 really efficiently.

Yes it converts, (most studies on the conversion are on mice) but the majority of converted K2 is not absorbed and leaves in your poo, and unfortunately the older we get the less efficient that process is.
Also at the time of the K1-K2 conversion studies K2 was just an afterthought, it's importance hadn't been discovered, but now science knows humans (not rodents) require preformed vitamin K2 in the diet not converted K1. Vegan cherry picking sites fail to mention that.

Don't forget "Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox"
Probably explains why so many long term older vegans have poor dental health.



Vit A
Almost impossible not to get recommended daily value on a vegan diet. 9 of the top 10 food sources are vegan, and a single sweet potato gives you 500% RDV. Now you're just spouting nonsense.

Plant based Vit A does not contain Retinol (A1) the most important of the A group, and found only in animal. Sweet potato is the perfect example, it contains vitamin A only in the form of beta-carotene, so no, you do not get 500% RDV from sweet potato.

I also forgot to add Vitamin D to this list.

Both A and D regulates calcium metabolism, and that makes vegan life tough when you need to eat a bucket of spinach everyday just to come close to RDV


Vit E
Mostly plant sourced, again very hard to not get enough. Same source as above: Numerous foods provide vitamin E. Nuts, seeds, and vegetable oils are among the best sources of alpha-tocopherol, and significant amounts are available in green leafy vegetables and fortified cereals.

Fair call.

I forgot to add Zinc to the list of missing vegan nutrients so I will replace it with the E :)

Plant foods that contain zinc also contain phytate, which inhibits zinc absorption. Vegan diets tend to reduce zinc absorption by about 35% compared with omniovorous diet. Again supplementation advisable.


Creatine/Carnocine
Body metabolizes plenty for average people. If you're body building then you should be supplementing anyway. Given the strongest man in the world is vegan and there are many vegan athletes I'd suggest it isn't a problem.

Body builders and power athletes thrive on this stuff, have for years, and science is only recently recognising the importance for the average human as natural conversion isn't enough.

Interesting the bodies conversion to creatine is by amino acids glycine and Arginine. Where are those amino acids primarily found?
dairy products and meats are the primary source, and the likes of chickpeas, Soy milk and wheat cereal etc are all secondary. Still good but once again vegans rely on excessive nutrients for all this conversion to take place, one reason why vegan athletes take huge amounts of creatine (and carnosine) supplements, more so than the average omnivore athlete.


DHA
This really belongs under Omega3:6, but you're busy trying to bolster your list. Vegans get plenty of ALA omega3, and the body naturally converts it to DHA. Studies show this conversion at between 3 and 5%, and actually higher among people who are vegan which suggests the body adapts. Again, 2 or 3 spoonfuls of seeds OR fortified foods such as cereals or milks and you're fine.

Yes, see above in the omega 3/6 reply, its conversion is extremely poor, between 5-10% for EPA and 2-5% for DHA. Also the conversion of ALA to DHA depends on zinc, iron (heme) and pyridoxine, all of which vegans are less likely than omnivores to get enough of.

Also "milks" aren't you a vegan? And no, no, no, almond and soy is NOT milk.


Iron
Vegans have been shown to have lower reserve iron, but the exact same rates of anemia which suggests that it is not a dietary concern. If you're going to be anemic it won't matter what your diet is. Plenty of iron available in vegetables, and it is absorbed better with vitamin C which is also abundant. Not really a concern.

Plenty of iron available in vegetables, but it's None-Heme iron, depending on the individual only about 2 to 20 percent of non-heme iron is absorbed while 15 to 35 percent of heme iron (found only in animal) is absorbed. Once again the vegan alternative is inferior and needs supplementing.


butyrate
Now you're just having a laugh. All the top sources are vegan, and moreover much more likely to be eaten by people on a vegan diet (ie wholegrains).

Fair call

Soy
Absolute red herring. Regardless thoughts on how healthy soy is for a person (very mixed literature), it is easy to have a soy free vegan diet if one so chooses.

This needs a thread by it's self
 
Bazzar said:
Stiff Arm- "You've taken every bit of literature you can find on potential dangers and then listed all the reasons as though they are inherent flaws"

Poor omega 3:6 ratio
only if you don't eat enough omega 3 (easily prevented by eating a couple of tablespoons of flax or chia with your breakfast for example), or eat way too much omega 6 (oils for example)

Plant based omega 3 is very high in 6, hence the poor ratio, the majority of vegans have excessive 6 just from the nature of the diet (vegetable oils are the are the worst for excessive 6) so it's almost impossible without going to the trouble of calculating then adding the likes of flax and chia to achieve a good balance, even then Flax (ALA) must be converted by the body into the different forms (DHA and EPA) before it can be utilized. The human body isn't very efficient doing that. From my quick search that means you need 40 grams of flax oil for your body to get just 1g of usable omega 3, omega 3 in krill and fish are already in the form of DHA and EPA so they are far more efficient sources.

Lack of b12
Easily possible to get from fortified drinks and cereals, just as most meat products are now fortified. Given that b12 deficiency is common in both vegetarians AND omnivores, it makes sense to supplement as it is cheap and easy not to become deficient.

I'll give you the "fortified" foods, but serious? you need to rely on foods that have been "tampered" with.
What did the vegans of the past do before fortification?

And most plant like fermented soy foods (and seaweed) contain B12 analogs called cobamides that block the actual intake of true B12

And PMSL at it being common for omnivores to be deficient in B12, that is just dumb.

Vit K2
Now you're starting to spout old debunked stuff.
Spinach, broccoli, asparagus, collard greens, Swiss chard, bok choy, peas, parsley and lentils also contain high amounts of Vitamin K. Bacteria in our gut transforms it from K1 to K2 really efficiently.

Yes it converts, (most studies on the conversion are on mice) but the majority of converted K2 is not absorbed and leaves in your poo, and unfortunately the older we get the less efficient that process is.
Also at the time of the K1-K2 conversion studies K2 was just an afterthought, it's importance hadn't been discovered, but now science knows humans (not rodents) require preformed vitamin K2 in the diet not converted K1. Vegan cherry picking sites fail to mention that.

Don't forget "Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox"
Probably explains why so many long term older vegans have poor dental health.



Vit A
Almost impossible not to get recommended daily value on a vegan diet. 9 of the top 10 food sources are vegan, and a single sweet potato gives you 500% RDV. Now you're just spouting nonsense.

Plant based Vit A does not contain Retinol (A1) the most important of the A group, and found only in animal. Sweet potato is the perfect example, it contains vitamin A only in the form of beta-carotene, so no, you do not get 500% RDV from sweet potato.

I also forgot to add Vitamin D to this list.

Both A and D regulates calcium metabolism, and that makes vegan life tough when you need to eat a bucket of spinach everyday just to come close to RDV


Vit E
Mostly plant sourced, again very hard to not get enough. Same source as above: Numerous foods provide vitamin E. Nuts, seeds, and vegetable oils are among the best sources of alpha-tocopherol, and significant amounts are available in green leafy vegetables and fortified cereals.

Fair call.

I forgot to add Zinc to the list of missing vegan nutrients so I will replace it with the E :)

Plant foods that contain zinc also contain phytate, which inhibits zinc absorption. Vegan diets tend to reduce zinc absorption by about 35% compared with omniovorous diet. Again supplementation advisable.


Creatine/Carnocine
Body metabolizes plenty for average people. If you're body building then you should be supplementing anyway. Given the strongest man in the world is vegan and there are many vegan athletes I'd suggest it isn't a problem.

Body builders and power athletes thrive on this stuff, have for years, and science is only recently recognising the importance for the average human as natural conversion isn't enough.

Interesting the bodies conversion to creatine is by amino acids glycine and Arginine. Where are those amino acids primarily found?
dairy products and meats are the primary source, and the likes of chickpeas, Soy milk and wheat cereal etc are all secondary. Still good but once again vegans rely on excessive nutrients for all this conversion to take place, one reason why vegan athletes take huge amounts of creatine (and carnosine) supplements, more so than the average omnivore athlete.


DHA
This really belongs under Omega3:6, but you're busy trying to bolster your list. Vegans get plenty of ALA omega3, and the body naturally converts it to DHA. Studies show this conversion at between 3 and 5%, and actually higher among people who are vegan which suggests the body adapts. Again, 2 or 3 spoonfuls of seeds OR fortified foods such as cereals or milks and you're fine.

Yes, see above in the omega 3/6 reply, its conversion is extremely poor, between 5-10% for EPA and 2-5% for DHA. Also the conversion of ALA to DHA depends on zinc, iron (heme) and pyridoxine, all of which vegans are less likely than omnivores to get enough of.

Also "milks" aren't you a vegan? And no, no, no, almond and soy is NOT milk.


Iron
Vegans have been shown to have lower reserve iron, but the exact same rates of anemia which suggests that it is not a dietary concern. If you're going to be anemic it won't matter what your diet is. Plenty of iron available in vegetables, and it is absorbed better with vitamin C which is also abundant. Not really a concern.

Plenty of iron available in vegetables, but it's None-Heme iron, depending on the individual only about 2 to 20 percent of non-heme iron is absorbed while 15 to 35 percent of heme iron (found only in animal) is absorbed. Once again the vegan alternative is inferior and needs supplementing.


butyrate
Now you're just having a laugh. All the top sources are vegan, and moreover much more likely to be eaten by people on a vegan diet (ie wholegrains).

Fair call

Soy
Absolute red herring. Regardless thoughts on how healthy soy is for a person (very mixed literature), it is easy to have a soy free vegan diet if one so chooses.

This needs a thread by it's self
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Now you're actually engaging. I appreciate that.

I'm about to go to bed so I'll make this short:

Omega3/6:
Good to see you're quoting some real figures :thumbsu:
2-5% conversion of ALA to DHA, and studies have shown that vegans convert a higher level (about 25% more compared to omnivores if they're not overdoing omega 6 which blocks the conversion. I can pull the study if you really want). In essence, yes, vegans should be taking flax seeds and/or chia seeds on a regular basis. 2 or 3 tablespoons a day hidden in other food should do it to get the RDV's.

B12:
Yep, really counter-intuitive that omni's are often b12 deficient but there we go.
Here's an article that explains why.
B12 is a bacteria in soil/fecal matter. Now that animals are often raised without ever having contact with soil, they need to be supplemented too. B12 is actually really hard to absorb from animal sources because it bonds very strongly with animal proteins. From supplement sources is 8-12 times more efficient.
As far as historically, traces of dirt on food and untreated drinking water. About a liter a day of any untreated water will get you all the b12 you need.

Iron:
Yep, non heme iron is harder to absorb, and as a result vegans tend to have lower stores. They don't however have higher cases of anemia which suggests that the body is able to extract what it needs from plant sources unless they're genetically predisposed to being anemic.

Vit D:
Only an issue for vampires. In seriousness lots of people are Vit D deficient, and dietary vit D doesn't generally go close to requirements regardless of what source. 10 min in the sun and you're sorted.

Zinc:
Again not an issue with a little care to eat widely.

I'm not going to go into the stuff about athletes now. I think you're guessing when it comes to vegan athletes having to take higher supplements, but at any rate it is working for many.

Research around veganism used to be all based around nutrition deficiency risks. Now it has swung the other way and is looking at all the health benefits.
I'm not at all countering that there are risks associated, simply arguing that all diets have risks, and there's a strong argument that the health benefits outweigh those risks.
 
Bazzar said:
Also what's with all this "fake" vegan food? Why eat bacon, sausages, hamburgers, chicken made from plant and disguised as the real thing?

VeganFoodProducts.jpg


Why?
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I agree to be honest, it does make it easier for people to transfer but a diet based around that sort of processed crap isn't healthy. Just as a diet based around the food they replace is equally unhealthy ;)

It is worth differentiating a Plant Based Whole Foods diet PBWF from veganism, as being vegan is not inherently healthy. You can be vegan eating only the above s**t with chips and oreos.

In general research seems to be showing that the closer a diet is to a PBWF philosophy, the healthier (Mediterranean diet, vegetarian diet, vegan diet etc)
 
StiffArm said:
I agree to be honest, it does make it easier for people to transfer but a diet based around that sort of processed crap isn't healthy. Just as a diet based around the food they replace is equally unhealthy ;)

It is worth differentiating a Plant Based Whole Foods diet PBWF from veganism, as being vegan is not inherently healthy. You can be vegan eating only the above s**t with chips and oreos.

In general research seems to be showing that the closer a diet is to a PBWF philosophy, the healthier (Mediterranean diet, vegetarian diet, vegan diet etc)
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With all that traditional meat?
 
Bazzar said:
Any chance of a link NOT from a vegan. That one Dr. Jennifer Rooke is a supported of forks over knives and the china study.
Credibility shot right there.
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Refer to monckton pic.

Questioning one or two aspects of a study does not 'debunk' everything a scientist does, or raise doubts on everything associated.
 
"The Mediterranean Diet Pyramid is based on the dietary traditions of Crete, Greece, and southern Italy circa 1960" [Don't forget they were just observational studies]
That's where it became confused and flawed , and Key's later on said so. He admitted mistakes



Untitled-2-3-800x526.jpg


Also did Ancel Keys commit scientific fraud by not publishing the results of the Minnesota Coronary Experiment?

http://whatthefatbook.com/prof-grant-on-minnesota-coronary-experiment/
 
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