VIC fans - merge, relocate or relegate?

Which is the least worst option?

  • Merge with another Vic club

    Votes: 22 17.3%
  • Relocate interstate

    Votes: 65 51.2%
  • Drop down to the VFL

    Votes: 40 31.5%

  • Total voters
    127

Remove this Banner Ad

Roylion

Moderator
Oct 17, 2000
14,545
11,139
Melbourne
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Fitzroy Football Club
So the question is why has HQ changed its policy to support clubs? Considering they spruik a 'national' competition when in reality it's an expanded VFL competition.
More money in the game.

Are they averse because they're worried the market won't accept mergers / relocations / relegations to actually make it more national?
The AFL can't force mergers / relocations (1996 demonstrated that) and they don't have the appetite to try and encourage them with the last serious attempt being North to Gold Coast.

just saying if it is correct that the market are happy to accept compromise then that's pretty sad.
You're either not understanding what I am saying or choosing delierately to ignore it.
 

Carringbush2010

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 6, 2016
10,447
6,543
Perth
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Pines Football Club
More money in the game.



The AFL can't force mergers / relocations (1996 demonstrated that) and they don't have the appetite to try and encourage them with the last serious attempt being North to Gold Coast.



You're either not understanding what I am saying or choosing delierately to ignore it.
More money in the game, correct, the market (fan base) is the original source of that money. Maybe HQ are concerned about fan base loss IF one of the 3 were proposed. Hence the public intent to ensure all clubs survival.

I know HQ can't force mergers or anything at club level but they could propose it, so if HQ are not concerned about the market opposing a more 'national' comp why won't they put up (or any club or body for that matter) a proposal? Why no appetite, considering that any of the 3 would be viewed as a move toward a more national comp? Which they spruik is a national comp.

Why didn't north move to gc?, because their members opposed it as you alluded to. So maybe north fans would walk if their club was subjected to any of the 3.

And now we have a lot of non vic fans proposing a fold / relocation / merge of that club, even knowing that those members originally opposed a move.

I'm not misunderstanding what you're saying, I'm merely saying that if it is true that the vic market are not opposed to any of the 3 then that is sad, and maybe just maybe that is correct. I would hope not.
 

Roylion

Moderator
Oct 17, 2000
14,545
11,139
Melbourne
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Fitzroy Football Club
I'm not misunderstanding what you're saying, I'm merely saying that if it is true that the vic market are not opposed to any of the 3 then that is sad, and maybe just maybe that is correct. I would hope not.
What point are you exactly trying to make to me? That many Vic clubs and their members and supporters are opposed to mergers and relocations? Of course they are. I’ve known that for a long time.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Carringbush2010

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 6, 2016
10,447
6,543
Perth
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Pines Football Club
What point are you exactly trying to make to me? That many Vic clubs and their members and supporters are opposed to mergers and relocations? Of course they are. I’ve known that for a long time.
Well going by the numbers earlier you quoted like dees members being the majority in favour of a merge then that's sad. That's all, not here for a fight just stating what might be true (like those dees members) is not a good thing.
 

Roylion

Moderator
Oct 17, 2000
14,545
11,139
Melbourne
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Fitzroy Football Club
Well going by the numbers earlier you quoted like dees members being the majority in favour of a merge then that's sad.
Well that's your personal opinion only.

just stating what might be true (like those dees members) is not a good thing.
And all I'm saying is that some members and supporters would prefer an equal merger with another club in preference to the total extinction of their club. I've given a couple of examples. You have a different opinion. But as I said, its easy to be idealistic and dogmatic when your club is under no threat of extinction.
 

Carringbush2010

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 6, 2016
10,447
6,543
Perth
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Pines Football Club
Well that's your personal opinion only.



And all I'm saying is that some members and supporters would prefer an equal merger with another club in preference to the total extinction of their club. I've given a couple of examples. You have a different opinion. But as I said, its easy to be idealistic and dogmatic when your club is under no threat of extinction.
Yes it is my opinion, I doubt I'm alone in that. I've also conceded with the numbers you quoted that maybe the market base of those clubs (as a majority) may readily accept that compromise. I would hope not.
 

terrybull

Team Captain
Feb 1, 2004
449
383
Sweden
Other Teams
Helsingborg Australian FC
It wasn't luck. It was a lot of hard work. As a Fitzroy shareholder I'm proud to say I personally assisted in Fitzroy's survival and revival between 1997 to the present, but I also know



Accepting change is better than not existing in any form whatsoever. What the change entails depends on whether I support the new entity.



As I said, it’s easy to be idealistic when it’s your club that is not threatened.

Existing in some form, as part of something new) is far better than not existing at all, such as the...

View attachment 1039012

What's not to like? Merger of two neighbouring suburbs.

In Melbourne, colours, emblem and playing out of the MCG.

This is an article published by Ashley Browne in The Age in 1995 on how a Melbourne - Fitzroy merger might have been like.

More than 60,000 fans bathed in the MCG sunshine yesterday as the AFL’s two newest clubs, the Melbourne Lions and the Port Adelaide Steelers, bounced the ball to start the 1996 season and the leagues centenary celebrations.

Despite a sizeable contingent of Port Adelaide fans – every bit as rabid as their counterparts from Collingwood – all eyes were on the Lions and how the players from the old Melbourne and Fitzroy clubs would meld.

That question was answered during a withering nine goal third quarter burst that broke the game open. Melbourne was outstanding.

Neil Balme, the unanimous coach of the new club has put together an outstanding side. Skipper Gary Lyon booted nine goals for the Lions, while David Schwarz showed no ill-effects from last year’s two knee reconstructions, pulling in eight marks from centre-half forward and booting five goals of his own.

But it was the on-ball brigade of that was the most impressive feature of the new side. Vice captain Brad Boyd amassed 34 possessions while shutting Steeler captain Craig Bradley out of the contest.

Boyd was always the class performer of the old Fitzroy midfield, but yesterday he combined superbly with with Andy Lovell and Stephen Tingay to mesmerise the Steelers. Simon Atkins another of the former Lions, gave great drive from the centre after half time.

By contrast it was a miserable homecoming for Andrew Obst, the sole top ten player the Demons were forced to offload under the rules of the merger. Obst has found happiness with Port Adelaide the club from which he was recruited to Melbourne in 1990, but he was thrashed yesterday by Glenn Lovett.

There was much speculation that the side would be dominated by former Demons. But the Fitzroy contigent, particularly full back Simon Hawking who kept Scott Hodges to one goal and Chris Johnson who has already struck an uncanny understanding with Schwarz and Lyon.

Off the field it was a grand day for the Lions. Marketing manager John Birt reported a brisk sale of membership tickets and estimated that the sales were already approaching 15,000, which means the club will not need to under-write its membership sales, as it would have if the Lions had sold 12,720. (20% more than the 10,500 the Demons sold last year).

"The TV campaign the AFL helped finance has captured our supporters attention. They understand that a membership ticket represents good value, particularly when ours are $20 cheaper than any other club's" said Birt who predicted that with 10 MCG home games still to come, the Lions membership could top 20,000. And he speaks from a position of strength, having handled Collingwood’s membership during the heady days following the 1990 premiership.

Club chairman Dyson Hore-Lacy was ecstatic after the match. “This is why we decided to resume those 1994 negotiations with Melbourne, rather than merge with Brisbane like some at the AFL would have preferred, “ he said.

“We’ve just won a huge game at our new home ground the MCG and the atmosphere was better than anything we experienced at the Western Oval and certainly better than watching it on TV from the Gabba.”

And with that he headed off to celebrate at 'Smithy’s', the new social club at the Junction Oval named after the late Norm Smith, who played for and coached both Melbourne and Fitzroy.

It was built for the Lions with a $700,000 handout from the AFL, which was to be used specifically for the creation of a social club."
Or maybe even more fans would have been lost. Not supporting the new club.
 

Roylion

Moderator
Oct 17, 2000
14,545
11,139
Melbourne
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Fitzroy Football Club
Yes it is my opinion, I doubt I'm alone in that. I've also conceded with the numbers you quoted that maybe the market base of those clubs (as a majority) may readily accept that compromise. I would hope not.
In 1996, the overwhelming majority of Fitzroy shareholders preferred merger to extinction
 

Demonic Ascent

Brownlow Medallist
Feb 21, 2006
15,751
11,768
Muckertal
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
Turtles, NYJets, Celtics, Tottenham
Well going by the numbers earlier you quoted like dees members being the majority in favour of a merge then that's sad. That's all, not here for a fight just stating what might be true (like those dees members) is not a good thing.
Two things - firstly the "pro-merger" vote would not have held up to a court challenge and secondly the merger was essentially a Melbourne takeover of Hawthorn, it was weighted heavily in Melbourne's favour.
 

VL3OJ

Premium Platinum
Mar 2, 2007
1,315
2,570
Wandilagong west
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Orica Greenedge
Personally, I would have liked to have seen a EPL style tiered system with relegation and demotion but the difference between AFL and the other leagues prevents this, perhaps back at the start of the national expansion, this may have been viable.

A merger is never a 50/50 option, I've been through two local mergers and some of us just started to come back into the fold 15 years after! In all honesty, a move to Tasmania is by far the best option ... or Auckland.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Roylion

Moderator
Oct 17, 2000
14,545
11,139
Melbourne
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Fitzroy Football Club
Why is that?

Because of the reasons stated previously
Why are you so certain that the "pro-merger" vote would "not have held up to a court challenge"?

Ian Ridley argued that

"No member who sought to enter and vote than night was turned away. No one who was willing to wait was shut out and prevented from voting. Many supporters were turned away because they were not members."

The Dallas Brooks Hall final voting figures were:
- 1,455 opposed the merger
- 497 supported the merger.

Would this have held up to a court challenge? Would it have been challenged at all?

Proxy votes for the Melbourne Hawks numbered 7,000 of which roughly 4,000 voted yes to the merger and 3,000 voted no to the merger.

Would this have held up to a court challenge? On what grounds?

Michael Perry from Arthur Anderson was the returning officer for the merger vote. He discounted 200 yes proxy votes which turned up the day after the close of voting and were hence discarded.

As I said the Demon Alternative and other anti-merger groups who were advertising in the papers for members to vote no. Joseph Gutnick and his family joined the Melbourne Football Club as members for the first time to vote no and run for president. The total numbers of members who signed up for the first time or renewed their memberships, specifically to vote for or aganst between the announcement of the merger proposal and the vote was about 800. There is no doubt some woud have joined purely to vote 'no'.

So on what grounds woud the vote have not held up to a court challenge? Non-member supporters who turned up to the Dallas Brooks Hall were simply not entitled to vote.
 
Last edited:

Roylion

Moderator
Oct 17, 2000
14,545
11,139
Melbourne
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Fitzroy Football Club
Do you consider Ian Ridley a reliable source of information?
Five time premiership player, a former coach, Hall of Famer, chairman of the club. Why wouldn't I?

Do I consider Dyson Hore-Lacy a reliable source of information about Fitzroy's 1996 merger saga? His claims have never been challenged by anyone either in and out of court.
 

raymond35

Club Legend
Jan 5, 2004
1,197
1,664
gold coast
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
collingwood vfl
Five time premiership player, a former coach, Hall of Famer, chairman of the club. Why wouldn't I?

Do I consider Dyson Hore-Lacy a reliable source of information about Fitzroy's 1996 merger saga? His claims have never been challenged by anyone either in and out of court.
Admittedly I've never met either of them, but the impression i get from their actions and hearing them speak, are poles apart.
Ridley appeared most unpleasant, even allowing for an incredibly lucky playing career that saw him play in premiership teams his entire time in the big league.
 

eastfreo75

Brownlow Medallist
Feb 11, 2011
10,407
9,296
pakenham
AFL Club
Fremantle
Agree. This should be a question for all fans.

so for example if AFL says only one club in WA, would you prefer to merge and become the West Fremantle Eagles or to relocate or go to WAFL?
I hate the Eagles and majority of West Coast have a distrain for the Dockers.

Merge? No way. Stick that up your jumper.

Already go for East Fremantle in the WAFL, so no to that option.

Relocate, I go for the dockers because they are Fremantle.

No to all options and rather die.

East Fremantle is really struggling for the last quarter of a century.

Merge with another team, I wouldn’t support the team.

Relocate, If they kept the same colours and name then yes.

Go into the lower league, wouldn’t interest me but I would still go for them.
 

eastfreo75

Brownlow Medallist
Feb 11, 2011
10,407
9,296
pakenham
AFL Club
Fremantle
Wait a second.

The popn of Vic is 6.4mil. That's 640k per team.

Tassie popn 515k. Less per team, and with 2 clubs already playing 6 games a year there.

One option would be relocating North to Hobart.
x population per team is a faulty comparison.

Bring a third Perth team, they will be lucky-to have 10% of the fans.

In Melbourne, their is a massive difference the first most supported teams and the least.

Tasmania would have more fans than the 3 bottom supported Melbourne clubs.
 

Remove this Banner Ad