Victorian Football Association (VFA) results and ladders

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A few months ago I commenced compiling results and final ladders for the VFA (period 1877 to 1995) as I was unable to locate this information online. I started with 1896 and have published each result going back to 1890 so far, reconciling the final ladder to ensure accuracy. Going forward from 1897 I have published final ladders (and results of Finals matches from 1903) up to 1933 so far.

This is where I am up to so far: http://www.thegapchessclub.org.au/vfa/
(I'm using space on my chess club's website at present). The scope of what I am doing is set out on the methodology link from this page.

I am keen to know if anyone:
- has already compiled similar results, or has access to such results
- has any suggestions or comments that could improve what I have set out
- has found errors in what I have so far published online.

Thanks
 

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Teffy

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#2
Great work mate.:thumbsu:


Geelong Association (1922-1927) are a side I have never read about before, do you have any info about that club?
 
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Geelong Association was made up of a team representing the Geelong District League team. It was admitted to the VFA at the same time as North Melbourne was re-admitted, at a meeting of the Association on 19 Dec 1921. The new Geelong team's admission to the VFA was strongly opposed by the existing Geelong VFL club, fearful there would be competition for recruits in their catchment zone.

Geelong Association was an unsuccessful experiment, winning only 14 games and losing 90 during its six seasons. Its last VFA game was probably the death knell. It was played at home against Northcote on 27 August 1927 and lost 4-13-37 to 11-18-84. The game only attracted 150 spectators (the other four VFA games that day were seen by 13000 spectators), and the gate was a mere two pounds.

More details are here: http://www.fullpointsfooty.net/geelong_association.htm
 

Teffy

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Great info, thanks.

Can you fill me in on the history of Albert Park?

I am aware that there was a short lived merger with North in 1876, then North were renamed Hotham and became founding members of the VFA, along with Albert Park, who were in turn swallowed up by South Melbourne in 1880 who in turn went on to become a VFA power.

Did Albert Park get up and running under it's own steam again in 1877, or was this a new club?
 
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I have read in many places of the 1876 merger of North Melbourne and Albert Park (including on Wikipedia), but can't find a primary source to verify this. If it did occur, then Albert Park were the senior partner, and they continually existed during the 1870s.

Albert Park FC's is reported as a strong club continuously throughout the 1870s. Their 1877 AGM is reported in The Argus on 21 April 1877
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article5919531 - with no mention of any recent merger with North Melbourne. The 1877 AGM reveals a club with a strong membership of 70 members, and with good results for both the first and second teams. It also refers to a proposed merger with South Melbourne that fell through at that time (but later occurred on 31 March 1880)

North Melbourne was a senior club in 1875, although their roster of games is less than the more established teams, indicating their lesser status. There appears no mention of them in The Argus in 1876 beyond AGM notices (the AGM was to be held 19 April 1876). In 1876 there are minor teams Hotham United and Hotham Union, both probably junior teams. So I can't say what happened to North Melbourne, however a strong Hotham club emerged in 1877, and was one of the five metropolitan clubs (Melbourne, Carlton, Albert park, Hotham and St Kilda) that competed at senior level in the VFA's first season.
 

Teffy

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Here is a reference to a match between "Albert Park cum North Melbourne" and Melbourne on the 27th May 1876, in "The Illustrated Australian News".

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/art...albert park cum north melbourne&searchLimits=

Here is a letter to the editor of The Argus from 1939 which claims that North Melbourne was vetoed by opposition clubs due to hostile relations at the end of 1874, the club got around this by combining with Albert Park for the 1875 season as "Albert Park cum North Melbourne, before re-forming as North Melbourne in 1876 (at the end of the 1876 season I presume) and changing the club name to Hotham.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/art...albert park cum north melbourne&searchLimits=
 
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I would speculate that the author of the 1939 letter was out by a year with his dates. Perhaps the chain of events went something like this:

1875 North Melbourne played at senior level. They played Carlton twice on June 26 and September 4 of that year, but Melbourne not at all. Of the Sep 4 clash it was reported in The Argus that: "Throughout the game the North Melbourne team played very roughly and their style of play was a cause of much dissatisfaction among the Carlton team".
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article7419061

1876 The fallout from the final 1875 game with Carlton may have led to the hostile relations which precluded North Melbourne from obtaining fixtures. As a result they sought a (perhaps temporary) merger with Albert Park. The club was known as Albert Park cum North Melbourne for a short time at the start of the season, but perhaps this was dropped, as the club seems to be referred to simply as Albert Park in later news reports in 1876. Or perhaps it was easier for the press to avoid a cumbersome name?

1877 North Melbourne club reformed as Hotham.
 

RogersResults

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#10
Great work mate.:thumbsu:


Geelong Association (1922-1927) are a side I have never read about before, do you have any info about that club?
They played their home matches 1922-4 at Kardinia Park which means that Nth Melbourne has an earlier association with that ground, than does Geelong VFL. They transferred to the Western Oval in Geelong West in 1925 because they could afford the costs of playing at Kardinia Park.

There was a faction in the committee of Geelong VFL at the time, dissatisfied with the clubs relative lack of success in the VFL, who believed that a return to the VFA might produce better results. When that came to nothing, the VFA concentrated on supporting the creation of a new Geelong district team.
 

RogersResults

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A few months ago I commenced compiling results and final ladders for the VFA (period 1877 to 1995) as I was unable to locate this information online. I started with 1896 and have published each result going back to 1890 so far, reconciling the final ladder to ensure accuracy. Going forward from 1897 I have published final ladders (and results of Finals matches from 1903) up to 1933 so far.

This is where I am up to so far: http://www.thegapchessclub.org.au/vfa/
(I'm using space on my chess club's website at present). The scope of what I am doing is set out on the methodology link from this page.

I am keen to know if anyone:
- has already compiled similar results, or has access to such results
- has any suggestions or comments that could improve what I have set out
- has found errors in what I have so far published online.

Thanks
Good luck with that - the further back you go, the murkier it becomes.
Suggest scores be listed with the two teams competing, underneath each other instead of side by side for easier comparisons.

Cheers:

RogersResults


Also: In case you are not already aware of it - this may be of help.

Title
  • The VFA : a history of the Victorian Football Association (1877-1995) /​ Marc Fiddian.
Author
  • Fiddian, Marc.
Published
  • [Melbourne : the Author, c2004.
Physical Description
  • iv, 313 p. : ill., ports. ; 30 cm.
Subjects
Dewey Number
  • 796.33609945
Libraries Australia ID
 

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Teffy

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#12
I would speculate that the author of the 1939 letter was out by a year with his dates. Perhaps the chain of events went something like this:

1875 North Melbourne played at senior level. They played Carlton twice on June 26 and September 4 of that year, but Melbourne not at all. Of the Sep 4 clash it was reported in The Argus that: "Throughout the game the North Melbourne team played very roughly and their style of play was a cause of much dissatisfaction among the Carlton team".
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article7419061

1876 The fallout from the final 1875 game with Carlton may have led to the hostile relations which precluded North Melbourne from obtaining fixtures. As a result they sought a (perhaps temporary) merger with Albert Park. The club was known as Albert Park cum North Melbourne for a short time at the start of the season, but perhaps this was dropped, as the club seems to be referred to simply as Albert Park in later news reports in 1876. Or perhaps it was easier for the press to avoid a cumbersome name?

1877 North Melbourne club reformed as Hotham.
That seems like a reasonable interpretation of events to me.:thumbsu:
 

Teffy

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#13
They played their home matches 1922-4 at Kardinia Park which means that Nth Melbourne has an earlier association with that ground, than does Geelong VFL.
Fascinating. Geelong and North do share a history of some relevance. (Norths first VFL game, the events of 1945 etc.)


They transferred to the Western Oval in Geelong West in 1925 because they could afford the costs of playing at Kardinia Park.
Is this the same ground where the Geelong West - St Peters football club is located today?
 

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Fascinating. Geelong and North do share a history of some relevance. (Norths first VFL game, the events of 1945 etc.)




Is this the same ground where the Geelong West - St Peters football club is located today?
Yes I believe it is.
 

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"A few months ago I commenced compiling results and final ladders for the VFA (period 1877 to 1995) as I was unable to locate this information online."



Do you have a copy of Footy Stats 2000, by Kevin Taylor? Pages 69 to 71 contain some info about VFA ladders from 1880 to 1896 which may be of some use.
 
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"Do you have a copy of Footy Stats 2000, by Kevin Taylor? Pages 69 to 71 contain some info about VFA ladders from 1880 to 1896 which may be of some use.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I presume that these are the same tables published online at http://footystats.freeservers.com/Footystats/Vicfooty1856-96.html

While a useful guide, there are discrepancies in these ladders which I am seeking to correct. For example, I often wondered why Fitzroy ranked fourth above Footscray in 1894 when their percentage appeared inferior. It seems the reason is that Footscray actually conceded 66 goals, not 60. Of course, percentage wasn't actually used to separate teams prior to 1896, but 'a comparison of records' of goals for and against seems to have been used to determine the order of the top four clubs. The teams played once that season and Footscray won that game (this was a method used to separate teams in the past, notably in 1881).

In some seasons, games are included that don't appear to count towards the VFA premiership. For example, in 1887 Carlton is listed as playing 25 games, which includes 6 games against non-VFA opponents (all from Adelaide). However, at this time the Association was not including these games when determining the premiership, as can be seen by their deliberations reported on 8 Oct 1887: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article7947592

If the book contains information beyond that on the website, please let me know.
 

RogersResults

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Yes, I'm pretty sure this website is run by the same guy who wrote the book.
Kevin Taylor who runs the FootyStats site is the author of the 2000 Stats book as well as other football histories.

The VFA : a history of the Victorian Football Association (1877-1995) /​ Marc Fiddian. Is the most comprehensive guide to the the VFA but it has many gaps.

Individual Club histories e,g. "Unleashed: A History of the Footscray Football Club" have details of VFA records.

Suburban newspapers may also have details and reports that could fill in gaps not reported or misreported in the metropolitan dailies or provide cross reference.

Also the Australasian 1864-1946 had extensive football coverage and being a weekly had the time to get things included or corrected that the dailies didn't. A number of VFL records have been adjusted from reports in the Australasian. (Unfortunately not yet online.)
 

RogersResults

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#21
I have now uploaded results from the 1886, 1887, 1888 and 1889 seasons to the website: VFA Results and Tables

Any corrections or suggestions are welcome. Thanks.
Excellent work. Well done.

I noticed that the round 1 1886 Williamstown v Fitzroy is missing the first and third quarter quarters. In case you are not aware, The Williamstown Chronicle of 8 May 1886 has a full description of this match including attendance (1,500) and the scores at all quarter breaks.

W'town 1.0 1.0 2.3 2.3
Fitzroy 0.0 0.4 0.4 1.11
 
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Excellent work. Well done.

I noticed that the round 1 1886 Williamstown v Fitzroy is missing the first and third quarter quarters. In case you are not aware, The Williamstown Chronicle of 8 May 1886 has a full description of this match including attendance (1,500) and the scores at all quarter breaks.

W'town 1.0 1.0 2.3 2.3
Fitzroy 0.0 0.4 0.4 1.11
Thanks for that. I have updated this result, and also the Williamstown v St Kilda match details from the 29 May 1886 edition.

After I have reached 1877, I plan to review results for 1886-1896 more thoroughly against the suburban papers on Trove, and double check against The Argus and The Age. When I started from 1891 to 1896 I was not even checking for attendance figures, so this is also on the agenda.

With 1885 (which is almost complete) I have been collating the data more comprehensively by checking multiple sources and noting discrepancies - it certainly seems a hard slog, but is probably quicker in the long run.
 

RogersResults

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Thanks for that. I have updated this result, and also the Williamstown v St Kilda match details from the 29 May 1886 edition.

After I have reached 1877, I plan to review results for 1886-1896 more thoroughly against the suburban papers on Trove, and double check against The Argus and The Age. When I started from 1891 to 1896 I was not even checking for attendance figures, so this is also on the agenda.

With 1885 (which is almost complete) I have been collating the data more comprehensively by checking multiple sources and noting discrepancies - it certainly seems a hard slog, but is probably quicker in the long run.
Have you been putting all the scores in a database as you go?
Might produce some interesting data for club historians.
 

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Call it morbid curiosity, but I would be fascinated to see the week by week results for some of the really terrible VFA teams from years ago.

For example:

Brighton (1961 2nd Div) - 0 wins, 18 losses, % of 28
Sunshine (1981 2nd Div) - 0 wins, 18 losses, % of 34
Camberwell (1986 1st Div) - 0 wins, 18 losses, % of 30
Mordialloc (1986 2nd Div) - 0 wins, 18 losses, % of 34
Camberwell (1989) - 0 wins, 18 losses, % of 40
Camberwell (1990) - 0 wins, 18 losses, % of 44
 

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