Victorian Football Association (VFA) results and ladders

[VFA1877]

Have you been putting all the scores in a database as you go?
Might produce some interesting data for club historians.

Yes, I have created a database for results. As well as the results published online, the database also includes results against Junior teams, practice matches, Charity Matches, Inter-Colonial matches and matches against touring teams (such as the 'England' tour of 1888). Only by checking where each team was each Saturday can I have confidence that matches are not missed.

I have also added the 1885 Season now to the website.

 

[RogersResults]

Yes, I have created a database for results. As well as the results published online, the database also includes results against Junior teams, practice matches, Charity Matches, Inter-Colonial matches and matches against touring teams (such as the 'England' tour of 1888). Only by checking where each team was each Saturday can I have confidence that matches are not missed.

I have also added the 1885 Season now to the website.

Excellent stuff!
How are the published 19th century scores tallying up with the final ladders?

Would be interesting if you discovered that not all the placings were how they have been handed down to the present day!

Would also be interested if you believe that the final match between Geelong and Melbourne in 1878 did indeed decide the premiership and could lay claim to being the "first grand final" ahead of the Collingwood v Sth Melbourne 1896 decider.

(The 1878 match saw the railways run the first "football special" from Geelong.)

 

[VFA1877]

How are the published 19th century scores tallying up with the final ladders?

Would be interesting if you discovered that not all the placings were how they have been handed down to the present day!

Would also be interested if you believe that the final match between Geelong and Melbourne in 1878 did indeed decide the premiership and could lay claim to being the "first grand final" ahead of the Collingwood v Sth Melbourne 1896 decider.

From 1888 when the Proportional Points system was adopted by the Association, there are no discrepancies in placings.

In prior years the situation is less clear-cut. Immediately prior to 1888 there are various reports that the premiership was decided by least losses. However due to the disparity in games played between the various teams, number of losses is not a fair means to order the remaining teams.

The VFA Meeting of 2 May 1884 reveals that the VFA at that time did not feel that it was their role to determine the Premiers (unless requested!) let alone rank the teams on a ladder.

Head-to-head records seem to be an important method used to rank leading clubs from the Challange Cup era (prior to 1876) into the early VFA years (1877 to about 1885). I expect this was how the Geelong v Melbourne game became the 1878 decider, but have not gone back this far yet.

An example of a discrepancy I found in the 1885 ladder: Melbourne is ranked 8th above Richmond 9th in every source I have found. One reason for this is the inclusion of Melbourne 7-16 Port Adelaide 4-6 (MCG, 25 May 1885), for example in this 1885 Season Summary. Even when this game is correctly excluded as in this 1886 article in the Argus, Melbourne still ranks higher. However I have found no justification for this, and set out of reasons for Richmond ranking above Melbourne in 1885 on my website. Hotham is ranked 5th on many 1885 ladders but this is because Inter-Colonial games from their successful tour of South Australia (Played 6, Won 6) have been factored in. Only including VFA games, they come 7th.

Some 1885 ladders include 3 extra games played by South Melbourne, one of which was a farcicial win against Sunbury 10-24 to nil, which was obviously not a first-class game. The match report in The Age (18 May 1885) states Sunbury arrived at South Melbourne with only 15 men and then includes this gem: "The play of the Sunbury men was in many cases so crude and clumsy that the spectators frequently enjoyed a heartly laugh at their expense, and it was evident that after half time the visitors had given up the game as a bad job."

 

[RogersResults]

From 1888 when the Proportional Points system was adopted by the Association, there are no discrepancies in placings.

In prior years the situation is less clear-cut. Immediately prior to 1888 there are various reports that the premiership was decided by least losses. However due to the disparity in games played between the various teams, number of losses is not a fair means to order the remaining teams.

The VFA Meeting of 2 May 1884 reveals that the VFA at that time did not feel that it was their role to determine the Premiers (unless requested!) let alone rank the teams on a ladder.

Head-to-head records seem to be an important method used to rank leading clubs from the Challange Cup era (prior to 1876) into the early VFA years (1877 to about 1885). I expect this was how the Geelong v Melbourne game became the 1878 decider, but have not gone back this far yet.

An example of a discrepancy I found in the 1885 ladder: Melbourne is ranked 8th above Richmond 9th in every source I have found. One reason for this is the inclusion of Melbourne 7-16 Port Adelaide 4-6 (MCG, 25 May 1885), for example in this 1885 Season Summary. Even when this game is correctly excluded as in this 1886 article in the Argus, Melbourne still ranks higher. However I have found no justification for this, and set out of reasons for Richmond ranking above Melbourne in 1885 on my website. Hotham is ranked 5th on many 1885 ladders but this is because Inter-Colonial games from their successful tour of South Australia (Played 6, Won 6) have been factored in. Only including VFA games, they come 7th.

Some 1885 ladders include 3 extra games played by South Melbourne, one of which was a farcicial win against Sunbury 10-24 to nil, which was obviously not a first-class game. The match report in The Age (18 May 1885) states Sunbury arrived at South Melbourne with only 15 men and then includes this gem: "The play of the Sunbury men was in many cases so crude and clumsy that the spectators frequently enjoyed a heartly laugh at their expense, and it was evident that after half time the visitors had given up the game as a bad job."

Fascinating stuff with all sorts of reflections on the development of a modern industrial society from the pre-modern emphasis on the immediate (current and last results of head to head contests being of more importance than accumulated results) to the modern focus on the future with long term structures leading to such a thing as a "premiership" plus clear 'rankings' for all.

It gives a picture of a much more dynamic society than today. In a little more than a couple of decades, football in Victoria went from ad hoc match arrangements and structures to the system of a centrally determined and regularised fixture of matches and premiership competition that is still in place today.

Have you let Rhett Bartlett know that Richmond should be ranked above Melbourne in 1885?

 

[VFA1877]

Results for the 1884 VFA Season have now been added. Any feedback is welcome. The list of results includes more comments which help add context to the games, although I would like to expand this at some stage as there are many interesting and forgotten stories attached to these games.

Have you let Rhett Bartlett know that Richmond should be ranked above Melbourne in 1885?

Yes, I've contacted Rhett about this.

 

[emuboy]

Two things have always interested me about the old VFA; I'm not sure if anyone could help me out at all?

What are some of the longest periods of time between clubs meeting, back when there were two divisions (1961-1989); and were there any that never met at all during this time?

I know that the Sandringham Zebras and Port Melbourne were never relegated from 1st to 2nd division and so could never have played Kilsyth and Berwick, which entered in 1982 and only played in 2nd Division before departing, but are there any others that somehow missed meeting?

 

[VFA1877]

Two things have always interested me about the old VFA; I'm not sure if anyone could help me out at all?

What are some of the longest periods of time between clubs meeting, back when there were two divisions (1961-1989); and were there any that never met at all during this time?

I know that the Sandringham Zebras and Port Melbourne were never relegated from 1st to 2nd division and so could never have played Kilsyth and Berwick, which entered in 1982 and only played in 2nd Division before departing, but are there any others that somehow missed meeting?

Between 1965 and 1981 there was a static 20 clubs that participated in the two divisions. During these season three clubs were always in Div 1: Port Melbourne, Sandringham and Dandenong, while three clubs never left Div 2: Box Hill, Werribee and Northcote.

You correctly state that Port and Sandringham were ever present in Div 1 from 1961 to 1989. However no team remained in Div 2 this whole period. During this time the longest a team was continuously in Div 2 was 24 seasons (Northcote 1964-1987), just ahead of Box Hill who were in Div 2 for 23 seasons (1962-1984).

Kilsyth played only three seasons (1982-1984) and missed meeting 11 clubs that played only in Div 1 in these seasons. Berwick played five seasons (1983-1987) and missed playing 7 clubs. The reborn Moorabin club of 1983-1986 missed playing 8 clubs who stayed in Div 1 during these seasons, if the earlier Moorabin entity (last season 1963 in which they were Division 1 premiers) is excluded.

The VFA was at its largest at 24 clubs for a single season in 1983. Springvale (who joined in 1982) played all of the other 23 clubs except Waverley which it missed when promoted while Waverley were relegated.

 

[mediumsizered]

VFL website used to have the highest scores/most goals in a game etc.. on their website but they've taken it off now.

Bit of stuff here http://www.webcitation.org/query?ur...0001/Footyfacts.html&date=2009-10-25+02:53:47

Biggest win was Williamstown by 315 over Camberwell in 1985 when they kicked 55.17.374

I'm pretty certain that match was in 1987. Andrew Gibson kicked 22 goals in that game, filling in at FF for the injured Mark Fotheringham, who missed a big chunk of the season with a knee injury.

 

[emuboy]

Between 1965 and 1981 there was a static 20 clubs that participated in the two divisions. During these season three clubs were always in Div 1: Port Melbourne, Sandringham and Dandenong, while three clubs never left Div 2: Box Hill, Werribee and Northcote.

You correctly state that Port and Sandringham were ever present in Div 1 from 1961 to 1989. However no team remained in Div 2 this whole period. During this time the longest a team was continuously in Div 2 was 24 seasons (Northcote 1964-1987), just ahead of Box Hill who were in Div 2 for 23 seasons (1962-1984).

Kilsyth played only three seasons (1982-1984) and missed meeting 11 clubs that played only in Div 1 in these seasons. Berwick played five seasons (1983-1987) and missed playing 7 clubs. The reborn Moorabin club of 1983-1986 missed playing 8 clubs who stayed in Div 1 during these seasons, if the earlier Moorabin entity (last season 1963 in which they were Division 1 premiers) is excluded.

The VFA was at its largest at 24 clubs for a single season in 1983. Springvale (who joined in 1982) played all of the other 23 clubs except Waverley which it missed when promoted while Waverley were relegated.

Thanks VFA 1877.

I enjoy reading about the history of the VFA - it is such a pity that so many of the clubs (Brunswick, Camberwell, Sunshine, Northcote etc) have now become defunct, or no longer retain their original identities.

 

[worbod]

Found this instance of each team scoring over 100 points from May 26, 1991.

Sandringham 19.15 (129) d Williamstown 19.12 (126)
Dandenong 34.14 (218) d Frankston 19.10 (124)
Preston 22.14 (146) d Oakleigh 17.12 (114)
Box Hill 22.11 (143) d Springvale 17.14 (116)
Werribee 25.20 (170) d Prahran 21.12 (138)
Port Melbourne 21.17 (143) d Coburg 13.25 (103)

Coburg were quite lucky to crack the ton, being 4.22 (46) at three quarter time.

 

[worbod]

Another instance of all teams posting scores beyond 100, this time in both first and second division. Round 4, 1980:

First division:
Sandringham 24.16 (160) d Camberwell 17.18 (120)
Dandenong 27.18 (180) d Port Melbourne 22.12 (144)
Prahran 25.14 (164) d Caulfield 20.16 (136)
Coburg 17.18 (120) d Preston 16.13 (109)
Geelong West 22.16 (148) d Frankston 17.19 (121)

Second division:
Waverley 24.24 (168) d Oakleigh 20.17 (137)
Brunswick 27.16 (178) d Northcote 20.19 (139)
Yarraville 21.28 (154) d Werribee 14.18 (102)
Williamstown 23.20 (158) d Sunshine 17.6 (108)
Mordialloc 26.18 (174) d Box Hill 19.11 (125)

 

[worbod]

Records of some well known VFL forwards in the old VFA comp.

Player . . . .GamesGoalsAvgeMostTeam/s
Dick Harris . . 67 . 241 . 3.59 ? . .Williamstown
Rex Hunt . . . .38 . 203 . 5.34 11 . Sandringham
Peter McKenna . 45 . 217 . 4.82 11 . Port Melb, Northcote, Geelong West
Laurie Nash . . 74 . 418 . 5.64 14 . Camberwell
Bob Pratt . . . 40 . 263 . 6.57 22 . Coburg
Brian Taylor . .31 . 133 . 4.29 16 . Prahran
Jack Titus . . .23 . 139 . 6.04 16 . Coburg
Ron Todd . . . 141 . 672 . 4.76 20 . Williamstown
Soapy Vallence .82 . 424 . 5.17 20 . Williamstown, Brighton

 

[VFA1877]

On the theme of all teams reaching 100 points, the first ever instance in the VFA was Round 3, 1972.

Oakleigh 25.16 (166) d Preston 16.15 (111)
Dandenong 16.25 (121) d Sunshine 17.14 (116)
Sandringham 15.14 (104) d Coburg 15.13 (103)
Williamstown 18.19 (127) d Waverley 16.15 (111)
Prahran 17.18 (120) d Port Melbourne 15.17 (107)

By my calculations this occurred nine times during the 1970s, including consecutive rounds 17 and 18 in 1976. All instances were in Division One, which indicates Division Two was less even - Box Hill had an especially hard time during the 1970s! The 1978 finals series (Div 1) also featured four games in which both teams topped the ton.

 

[VFA1877]

Seasons 1877, 1878 and 1879 have now been added to VFA Results and Tables

In addition, the 1875 and 1876 Challenge Cup seasons plus the early Melbourne vs Carlton results (1866 to 1886) have been added to provide context to the VFA's formative years.

I intend to add 1880 to 1883 over coming weeks. Seasons post-1884 will be also be updated with new information.

 

[VFA1877]

Results from seasons 1880 to 1883 have recently been added to VFA Results and Tables, so the complete record from 1877 to 1896 is now available. A few results have been inferred from final ladders and are awaiting substantiation, but these are noted on the respective website pages - 1880, 1881, and Ballarat results (only) in 1886 & 1887. Results for season 1897 have also recently been added.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Waverley vs Sunshine Round 2 1981, bloody hell.

 

[Supermercado]

Waverley vs Sunshine Round 2 1981, bloody hell.

Gets worse for Camberwell in '85!

I do like how Sunshine managed to put on three goals in the last quarter. Also what about the massive scores across both divisions that day?

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Gets worse for Camberwell in '85!

I do like how Sunshine managed to put on three goals in the last quarter. Also what about the massive scores across both divisions that day?

What about the scores in general?

I would've flipped my s.h.i.t and would've absolutely loved it.

Especially the triple digit wins.

Here's hoping this'll be the VFA version of AFL Tables.

 

[Supermercado]

What about the scores in general?

I would've flipped my s.h.i.t and would've absolutely loved it.

Especially the triple digit wins.

Here's hoping this'll be the VFA version of AFL Tables.

I'd be interested to know how Sunshine recovered from that season, they had a few decent finishes after that before folding. Unlike say, Camberwell who bombed out massively towards the end of the 80's and spent years getting flogged.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

I'd be interested to know how Sunshine recovered from that season, they had a few decent finishes after that before folding. Unlike say, Camberwell who bombed out massively towards the end of the 80's and spent years getting flogged.

So were Camberwell like the VFA's version of country league struggler Callington?

 

[UpForGrabs]

What about the scores in general?

I would've flipped my s.h.i.t and would've absolutely loved it.

Especially the triple digit wins.

Here's hoping this'll be the VFA version of AFL Tables.

Scoring like that (although not 52 goals worth) was happening in the WAFL around that time. The period of 1978-1983 was insane, especially. Some massive totals kicked.

 

[Supermercado]

So were Camberwell like the VFA's version of country league struggler Callington?

Didn't officially win a game in '86, '89 or 1990. Did beat Sunshine in '89 but then had the win stripped when Sunshine dropped out of the competition.

No public campaigns of support though!

 

[rodney86]

From those 1981 scores, unlucky Sandringham. Scored 26.12 in the prelim final and still lost. And then the following week Port Melbourne turned a five point half time lead into a 113 point win.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Scoring like that (although not 52 goals worth) was happening in the WAFL around that time. The period of 1978-1983 was insane, especially. Some massive totals kicked.

Would've loved to have been around to see those scores.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Didn't officially win a game in '86, '89 or 1990. Did beat Sunshine in '89 but then had the win stripped when Sunshine dropped out of the competition.

No public campaigns of support though!

Not winning a game in those 3 years, .

How does one's ineptitude allow for that long a stay?

It's almost like St Kilda in the early years.