Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[Rob R]

NATO/The West doesn't need to put troops in Ukraine. The big advantage the West has is in their airforces. The Russian airforce is structured for defense against NATO aircraft with only limited attack capabilities. With their ability to engage NATO planes increasingly not capable as more and more of NATO airfleets go to 5th generation aircraft.

NATO doesn't need to jump to dropping bombs on the Kremlin. They could launch a massive set of strikes using B2, F-35's and F-22's against Russian locations (especially logistics hubs) all across Ukraine one night, then say 'Withdraw by the end of the week, or we'll bomb inside Ukraine, until there's no Russian forces alive there'. By drawing a clear line of inside Ukraine, they make it clear they aren't providing an existential threat to the Russian state, only their 'Special Military Operation'. Russia is free to try and take out any NATO/West forces they catch there. Good luck with that though.

All that stops this is the political will. The West is too weak (including Australia).

The Russian air force is actually focussed on offence the trouble (for them) is that is crap and wouldn't last ten minutes without a massive numerical advantage. Much like the performance of their army which also has the burden of poor morale as the soldiers know the war is unjustified and that Russia would be better off as a friend of the West and Ukraine rather than as a dictatorship under Putin. Much like the average Chinese person would like to be free of the dictatorship that runs China while claiming to be communist and knows Taiwan is a free independent nation that poses no threat to them.

On SM-A136B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[wannabejack]

hah, and your sidekick accused me of cherry picking words.

“The Ukraine” is a term used by russia and people like yourself who appear to live in Bizarro World. "Kiev" is associated with the past russification of Ukraine.

 

[wannabejack]

I forgive the "Kiev" - most of us were raised spelling it that way, and its all transliterated anyway so I'm not too fussed. Like spelling "Net" and "Nyet", its like, whatever.

But "the Ukraine" ... that has to be taught.

Fair enough but Kyiv has been around since 1995 so plenty of time to change.
I must say though, I have to check my spelling of Kyiv to make sure I haven’t put the i before the y.

 

[Chief]

Zidane98 the Internet Research Agency is still well-funded!

I like to think of ILP as our little lab specimen. We can study them and learn the latest twaddle fresh from the bowels of Putin's propaganda units.

 

[IlovethePies]

“The Ukraine” is a term used by russia and people like yourself who appear to live in Bizarro World. "Kiev" is associated with the past russification of Ukraine.

I read alot of literature written by Russian Marxists, for example Leon Trotsky whose piece linked below predicts with incredible perspicacity the catastrophe currently engulfing Ukraine. Trotsky also wrote "Revolution Betrayed" in 1936, in which he predicted that the Stalinist bureaucracy would overthrow nationalised property and restore capitalism if the Soviet working class failed to overthrow it in a political revolution. His analysis has been entirely vindicated by the events themselves.

If I refer to "the Ukraine" rather than Ukraine as the Ukrainian nationalists would insist that one does, it is not because of any allegiance to Russia. It is because of my familiarity with Trotsky's writings.

In case you don't know, Putin is a bitter opponent of the Russian Revolution and of socialism. He stands for right wing Russian nationalism. When the Russian army invaded Ukraine, Putin justified the invasion in a speech delivered on Feb 21, 2022 in which he condemned the Russian Revolution and the supposedly "bad" Bolsheviks led by Lenin.

Putin's hero is Stalin, the murderous dictator who was responsible for murdering far more socialist internationalists than Hitler ever did.

Leon Trotsky: Problem of the Ukraine (1939)​

​

 

[IlovethePies]

I like to think of ILP as our little lab specimen. We can study them and learn the latest twaddle fresh from the bowels of Putin's propaganda units.

I like to think of you as a prime example of the damage in historical and political consciousness created by US propaganda narratives.

The damage has been devastating and irreversible in some cases.

 

[IlovethePies]

The Russian air force is actually focussed on offence the trouble (for them) is that is crap and wouldn't last ten minutes without a massive numerical advantage. Much like the performance of their army which also has the burden of poor morale as the soldiers know the war is unjustified and that Russia would be better off as a friend of the West and Ukraine rather than as a dictatorship under Putin. Much like the average Chinese person would like to be free of the dictatorship that runs China while claiming to be communist and knows Taiwan is a free independent nation that poses no threat to them.

On SM-A136B using BigFooty.com mobile app

But here is the irony.

Putin would like to be a friend of the West. All he wants is to cut a deal in which the West will allow his regime to maintain itself, and therefore allow the Russian capitalist oligarchs supporting Putin to continue to accumulate enormous wealth from the massive natural resources and critical minerals located within the boundaries of Russia.

It is the imperialists who reject any such deal because they want to get rid of Putin's regime and the Russian oligarchs he represents, and install stooge regimes which will turn over the vast natural resources of Russia to them.

 

[CD Xbow]

But here is the irony.

Putin would like to be a friend of the West. All he wants is to cut a deal in which the West will allow his regime to maintain itself....

True, your words are literally ironic. They are also incorrect. By his very own words, he has vilified the West and declared the West is Russia's enemy. A message he has repeated many times. He's turned the whole Russian propaganda apparatus into messaging that. FMD.

 

[IlovethePies]

The program of the Soviet bureaucracy after WW2 was "coexistence with imperialism".

True, your words are literally ironic. They are also incorrect. By his very own words, he has vilified the West and declared the West is Russia's enemy. A message he has repeated many times. He's turned the whole Russian propaganda apparatus into messaging that. FMD.

In Feb this year, Putin appeared on a TV interview with Tucker. The interview received 18 million views on Youtube alone, indicating the enormous mistrust in msm.

In this interview, Putin recounted how, since 1991, Russian oligarchs have endeavored repeatedly to reconcile with the American ruling class. In 1991, he lamented, Russia expected to be embraced by the “civilized nations” but met with disappointment.

He explained how, even after the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, he inquired whether Russia would be accepted into the alliance, only to be rejected once again by the US.

Throughout the entire interview, Putin was pleading for "peaceful coexistence" with imperialism.

In the interview,he expressed utter confusion as to why imperialism refuses to cut a deal.

His whole invasion of Ukraine was predicated on the possiblity of using the resulting leverage to cut a deal that his regime could accept.

 

[Jamolad]

I read alot of literature written by Russian Marxists, for example Leon Trotsky whose piece linked below predicts with incredible perspicacity the catastrophe currently engulfing Ukraine. Trotsky also wrote "Revolution Betrayed" in 1936, in which he predicted that the Stalinist bureaucracy would overthrow nationalised property and restore capitalism if the Soviet working class failed to overthrow it in a political revolution. His analysis has been entirely vindicated by the events themselves.

If I refer to "the Ukraine" rather than Ukraine as the Ukrainian nationalists would insist that one does, it is not because of any allegiance to Russia. It is because of my familiarity with Trotsky's writings.

In case you don't know, Putin is a bitter opponent of the Russian Revolution and of socialism. He stands for right wing Russian nationalism. When the Russian army invaded Ukraine, Putin justified the invasion in a speech delivered on Feb 21, 2022 in which he condemned the Russian Revolution and the supposedly "bad" Bolsheviks led by Lenin.

Putin's hero is Stalin, the murderous dictator who was responsible for murdering far more socialist internationalists than Hitler ever did.

Leon Trotsky: Problem of the Ukraine (1939)​

​

Surely you could create a 'Socialism versus Capitalism versus Other-isms' thread, but if you are going to keep claiming a tenuous thread to on-topic by claiming you are advocating for Ukraine and Russian working class to unite under a socialist revolution that spreads the world over, then why must it only be under your preferred flavour of socialism?

Like socialism has split into so many splinter groups, so many internationals, most claiming to be the 'true' or 'original' version, others saying they are the ones remaining 'true' to the 'original', etc. How many competing Trotskyist groups are there; and why can't they agree with each other?

Or I'll make it simple and refer to just the below snip from Wiki about the WRP:

This conflict erupted in the mid-1980s and ended with the disintegration of the WRP. The various currents of the WRP attempted to found their own ICFIs each claiming to be the official one, yet they did not break with their old policies systematically and won no new international support. They disintegrated, and as of 2006, only two active ICFIs survives...

Should Ukraine and Russian working class unite in a socialist revolution as is your want, why do you think it will be under your mob here:

one led by David North of what was then known as the Workers' League in the United States. North and his supporters gained the allegiance of half of the remaining national sections, with the Greek, Spanish and Peruvian sections splitting and the German, Australian, and Sri Lankan sections, as well as a fraternal grouping in Ecuador, supporting North.

Would it not be more likely that they'd be led by these guys:

The other ICFI is based on the surviving group that still holds the name of WRP and refers to itself as the British section of an ICFI, with other sections in Russia/Ukraine, Sri Lanka and Greece. The Russian section is called the Workers Revolutionary League which is the Soviet section of the ICFI and has members in Russia, Ukraine and Belarus.

Or have I read you wrong, and what you've been calling for all along is revolution lead by the Workers Revolutionary League and the WRP (British section of ICFI)?

Please don't try to educate me on why one or some socialist organisations are better than others, because that would be the same as trying to argue some sexually transmitted diseases are better than others - it's a valid argument, but I still don't want whichever is the "best".

Just my opinion: pure capitalism sucks; but so does pure socialism. The right mix of both is my preference.

 

[IlovethePies]

Surely you could create a 'Socialism versus Capitalism versus Other-isms' thread, but if you are going to keep claiming a tenuous thread to on-topic by claiming you are advocating for Ukraine and Russian working class to unite under a socialist revolution that spreads the world over, then why must it only be under your preferred flavour of socialism?

Like socialism has split into so many splinter groups, so many internationals, most claiming to be the 'true' or 'original' version, others saying they are the ones remaining 'true' to the 'original', etc. How many competing Trotskyist groups are there; and why can't they agree with each other?

Or I'll make it simple and refer to just the below snip from Wiki about the WRP:



Should Ukraine and Russian working class unite in a socialist revolution as is your want, why do you think it will be under your mob here:



Would it not be more likely that they'd be led by these guys:



Or have I read you wrong, and what you've been calling for all along is revolution lead by the Workers Revolutionary League and the WRP (British section of ICFI)?

can't reply here as I will be thread banned for being off topic, but yeah, maybe a good idea.

 

[Andre]

I like to think of ILP as our little lab specimen. We can study them and learn the latest twaddle fresh from the bowels of Putin's propaganda units.

If Putin is trying to bring back the Russian Empire back to life, ILP is trying to animate the corpse of Lenin. He's advocating fighting the Russian revolution again, except against the West. Except the West isn't Empires anymore and sadly (for him) the people get to vote and 'true' socialists, haven't gotten much power in the last 100 years.

Sure there's wealth inequality, but the the 'class struggle' of workers against the landed nobility has been and gone. 'Capitalist oligarchs', at least outside Russia, have generally gotten super rich by providing some product or service people want. Somehow I don't think ILP is posting to BigFooty on some computer made behind the Iron Curtain and is using an Apple or Android device, checks various 'big' social media (to rail against unironically against the system that's provided the platform) and consumes most of his 'facts' via the internet, a system built for the US military and taken commercial by US capitalism.

I still wonder how old he is. He's the classic trope of a first year Uni Liberal Arts student, railing against the West, whilst enjoying all the advantages he wouldn't get anywhere outside it.

 

[CD Xbow]

If Putin is trying to bring back the Russian Empire back to life, ILP is trying to animate the corpse of Lenin. He's advocating fighting the Russian revolution again, except against the West. Except the West isn't Empires anymore and sadly (for him) the people get to vote and 'true' socialists, haven't gotten much power in the last 100 years.

Sure there's wealth inequality, but the the 'class struggle' of workers against the landed nobility has been and gone. 'Capitalist oligarchs', at least outside Russia, have generally gotten super rich by providing some product or service people want. Somehow I don't think ILP is posting to BigFooty on some computer made behind the Iron Curtain and is using an Apple or Android device, checks various 'big' social media (to rail against unironically against the system that's provided the platform) and consumes most of his 'facts' via the internet, a system built for the US military and taken commercial by US capitalism.

I still wonder how old he is. He's the classic trope of a first year Uni Liberal Arts student, railing against the West, whilst enjoying all the advantages he wouldn't get anywhere outside it.

I thinks its time he did a 'what did the Romans ever for do for us' piece.

 

[IlovethePies]

If Putin is trying to bring back the Russian Empire back to life, ILP is trying to animate the corpse of Lenin. He's advocating fighting the Russian revolution again, except against the West. Except the West isn't Empires anymore and sadly (for him) the people get to vote and 'true' socialists, haven't gotten much power in the last 100 years.

Sure there's wealth inequality, but the the 'class struggle' of workers against the landed nobility has been and gone. 'Capitalist oligarchs', at least outside Russia, have generally gotten super rich by providing some product or service people want. Somehow I don't think ILP is posting to BigFooty on some computer made behind the Iron Curtain and is using an Apple or Android device, checks various 'big' social media (to rail against unironically against the system that's provided the platform) and consumes most of his 'facts' via the internet, a system built for the US military and taken commercial by US capitalism.

I still wonder how old he is. He's the classic trope of a first year Uni Liberal Arts student, railing against the West, whilst enjoying all the advantages he wouldn't get anywhere outside it.

Well one thing for sure, I can tell that you're old...your trope of first year Uni Liberal arts students "enjoying all the advantages" disappeared a long time ago. Uni students today don't have time to study, they have to work full time to try to survive.

 

[wannabejack]

I thinks its time he did a 'what did the Romans ever for do for us' piece.

 

[Zidane98]

...and that's your answer.

Turn to one of your sidekicks for moral support.

We are united in our support against Russian fascist invaders of Ukraine.

Unlike yourself.

 

[Chief]

It's definitely the first record I have of your acknowledgement of mass anti-war sentiment in Russia.

You should read more. Everyone here knows and has talked about anti-war protests in Russia.

 

[Gavin Excell]

You shake your head about state of the.world when fwits like Tucker Carlson are apparently setting the agenda

Carlson who famously had no idea about historically driven Putin thoughts like Stalingrad , is just a terrible terrible joke

 

[jatz14]

The program of the Soviet bureaucracy after WW2 was "coexistence with imperialism".

In Feb this year, Putin appeared on a TV interview with Tucker. The interview received 18 million views on Youtube alone, indicating the enormous mistrust in msm.

In this interview, Putin recounted how, since 1991, Russian oligarchs have endeavored repeatedly to reconcile with the American ruling class. In 1991, he lamented, Russia expected to be embraced by the “civilized nations” but met with disappointment.

He explained how, even after the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, he inquired whether Russia would be accepted into the alliance, only to be rejected once again by the US.

Throughout the entire interview, Putin was pleading for "peaceful coexistence" with imperialism.

In the interview,he expressed utter confusion as to why imperialism refuses to cut a deal.

His whole invasion of Ukraine was predicated on the possiblity of using the resulting leverage to cut a deal that his regime could accept.

If he wants imperialism to cut a deal, all that he has to do is cut a deal.

But imperialists like Putin dont like fair deals, they only like one sided deals.

 

[IlovethePies]

You shake your head about state of the.world when fwits like Tucker Carlson are apparently setting the agenda

Carlson who famously had no idea about historically driven Putin thoughts like Stalingrad , is just a terrible terrible joke

The issue is not what Carlson said, it is what Putin said.
Thought that would be obvious.

 

[IlovethePies]

You should read more. Everyone here knows and has talked about anti-war protests in Russia.

So why does he want to escalate the war against Russia?

 

[Gavin Excell]

The issue is not what Carlson said, it is what Putin said.
Thought that would be obvious.

Carlson like all the Fox flogs can play their culture war rubbish but when they are potentially influencing foreign policy a true nadir has been met

 

[Chief]

So why does he want to escalate the war against Russia?

Because **** em. Maybe?

Or whatever. You'll just come back with some pie in the sky socialist revolution fantasy.

 

[IlovethePies]

Because **** em. Maybe?

Or whatever. You'll just come back with some pie in the sky socialist revolution fantasy.

such a stupid,backward comment

 

[Gavin Excell]

Why do conservatives get taken in by Putin