Science/Environment Water problems... what water problems.

[Play by Numbers]

**** me, the majority of the Great Ocean Road was dug by hand nearly 90 years ago, they built a pipeline from Perth to Kal over 100 years ago and they put 2 men on a revolving rock 250,000miles away and brought them back over 40 years ago.

And your point?

Who said it would be impossible to do? No one, but would it be prohibitively expensive due to the factors mentioned, yes.

Ridiculous post.

 

[Papa G]

Don't be silly.

I said comparative labor and materials costs are greater.

The other points mentioned are factors people are not taking into account when comparing the cost effectiveness of building a pipeline, compared to operating a desalination plant.

A pipeline could potentially guarantee all of the southern capitals drinking water, drought proof the whole of south/ eastern Australia, open up even more land to agriculture, and even potentially create more rain (there has been research into say flooding Lake Eyre which increases rainfall). Sure the costs would be huge, but it would pretty much guarantee food and water supplies for this country for a very long time. Hotch potch desal plants seem to be an expensive band aid response that only deals parochially and localised issues, rather than a grand national strategy that could fix a multitude of problems.

 

[Play by Numbers]

A pipeline could potentially guarantee all of the southern capitals drinking water, drought proof the whole of south/ eastern Australia, open up even more land to agriculture, and even potentially create more rain (there has been research into say flooding Lake Eyre which increases rainfall). Sure the costs would be huge, but it would pretty much guarantee food and water supplies for this country for a very long time. Hotch potch desal plants seem to be an expensive band aid response that only deals parochially and localised issues, rather than a grand national strategy that could fix a multitude of problems.

Impressive claims.

Unfortunately as mentioned water supply is only one of a multitude of problems facing the agricultural sector in Australia.

And if you are talking about securing water supplies for many key agricultural areas then in WA at least, this could mean hundreds if not thousands more km's of pipelines.

Desalination is a fast growing technology but not the only available. I will repeat, water recycling and better conservation/management need to be key focuses, at least in WA.

Sometimes the right answer is not always the most grand.

 

[Clay Davis]

Yes if the pipes are the same then i agree (obviously).

But Wednesday et al are talking about long systems and and taking advantage of current rivers and topography.

That aside, it is a workable scheme in the long term. Water is going to get ever more expensive. i said something similar to Herme Hill H when Swan was doling out the Harvey Norman checks. That money could been much better spent on a system to put more water in the Darling and let gravity do the rest right through athe greater part of Australia's foodbowl and all the way to Adelaide.

I read a good article on it a few years ago in Time magazine. In that it only required 30 miles of pipe and one major mountain to get over -I cant remember which lake they were referring to. One of the QLD politicians was pushing it. Bob Catter, maybe.

Taking advantage of the river systems is a nice idea, but then you're exposing all the water to the high evaporation rates that are experienced up there. The water losses would be immense.

 

[Wednesday]

Burdekin is 150m above sea level. By gravity alone, it's not going to push water very far.

Unless we invent frictionless pipes then these ideas are just pipe dreams.

Agree but building a higher catchment or pumping the water to the required level will overcome this. It would be a major project but not impossible.

 

[nut]

He also failed to take into account the comparative increase in material and labour costs.

Not to mention the obstacles/costs we will face in relation to land clearing, navigating or removing geographic obstacles, transportation of materials and construction equipment, housing costs for workers etc. etc.

There are such monumental logistical and possibly engineering/financial considerations to take into account. Not to mention the feasibility of an initial man made dam or catchment area.

But people don't seem to care. Look gee we will have teh infinite water and desalination is expensive.

Even now substantive technological advances are being made in filtration technology. It is also an area where patents related to nanofiltration could potentially make a lot of money, hence the CSIRO, Murcdoch University and the Federal Governments interest.

We also need to be more focused on conserving, better managing and hopefully recycling the water we have.

EDIT: just to be clear if we are discussing hypotheticals or proposals, my posts are in reference to a potential pipeline from northern Western Australia to the Perth metropolitan area.

Yes I failed to mention the increase in costs.. etc... where as you failed to mentioned the increase in population and increases in tax contributors plus the increases in the value of water... surely it's relative or we are all going backwards very quickly.

Yes it would be extremely expensive... and so was the Snowy Mountain scheme.

... and to be clear, I'm using the statistics from Lake Argyle for my suggestion of a similar Dam on the east coast which would be used to pipe water down to the eastern states.

 

[nut]

You don't need pumps at all! Everyone knows that it is all downhill from Kununarra to Perth.
Hey nut! Your surname wouldn't be Bridge by any chance?

No my surname isn't Bridge.

If there was a shortage of power along the way then a few wind farms can help with the push anyhow. All green...

 

[GeorgeGrljusich]

Anyone care to speculate on the cost of constructing a wind farm in the middle of the Great Sandy Desert?
Which, of course, would be smack bang in the middle of the most logical route for a pipeline.

 

[nut]

Impressive claims.

Unfortunately as mentioned water supply is only one of a multitude of problems facing the agricultural sector in Australia.

And if you are talking about securing water supplies for many key agricultural areas then in WA at least, this could mean hundreds if not thousands more km's of pipelines.

Desalination is a fast growing technology but not the only available. I will repeat, water recycling and better conservation/management need to be key focuses, at least in WA.

Sometimes the right answer is not always the most grand.

Well atleat my original post has gone from Gravy's second post as a "dumb idea" to a reasonable debate.

Yes you are correct, recycling water, desal plants etc, etc are a great way of becoming more efficient but if we are planning to double our population quickly then we need significantly more water, add to that the potential effect of climate change and we will need even more water.

Wouldn't it be smarter to put all the resources into something that will literally guarantee us an endless supply of water?? You cant recycle something you dont have. You cant grow crops without water.
My suggestion is expensive but fool proof. Why not bight the bullet now before we realise we need to do it anyway.

On a similar note Norway took advantage of it's natural resource and harnessed it's dams a long time ago and now is totally supplied by Hydro electricity. Was this an over kill when they planned for?? yes... are they happy they did it now? yep.. selling power to neighbouring countries was a bonus for them. Whilst Sweden with similar terrain went for Nuclear.
Do we have an abundance of resources ( water in the tropics)? yes... can we utilise it? yes.. Then why dont we?...

 

[nut]

Anyone care to speculate on the cost of constructing a wind farm in the middle of the Great Sandy Desert?
Which, of course, would be smack bang in the middle of the most logical route for a pipeline.

There would be no need if the Hydro power from the dam was equal to that from Lake Argyle.

For info I think Currently one large wind mill is around $1.5 million and can produce enough power for 1500 homes.

The most logical route would be to snake your way south through areas where the water could be utilised... so no the sandy desert would be a bad idea.

 

[GeorgeGrljusich]

There would be no need if the Hydro power from the dam was equal to that from Lake Argyle.

For info I think Currently one large wind mill is around $1.5 million and can produce enough power for 1500 homes.

So we run a HV powerline parallel with the pipline as well. It's getting massively expensive don't you think? Especially when you consider the terrain, isolation and ongoing maintenance issues.
Look, in theory I am with you. In practicality I am not.
And my Bridge reference was pertaining to ex WA politician Ernie Bridge who has been championing this for decades.
This issue also lost an unloseable election for our now Premier Barnett some years ago.

Maybe a solar power system would be more logical as the desert, at least, can be becalmed for days on end.

 

[GeorgeGrljusich]

The most logical route would be to snake your way south through areas where the water could be utilised... so no the sandy desert would be a bad idea.

What areas are they though.
I'm talking about WA here.
Do you realise the population sparcity in WA.
And do you realise that if you head south from lake Argyle you MUST cross the Great Sandy Desert?

 

[nut]

Burdekin is 150m above sea level. By gravity alone, it's not going to push water very far.

Unless we invent frictionless pipes then these ideas are just pipe dreams.

well they have been able to achieve it to kalgoorlie for 100 years...

 

[nut]

What areas are they though.
I'm talking about WA here.
Do you realise the population sparcity in WA.
And do you realise that if you head south from lake Argyle you MUST cross the Great Sandy Desert?

Well I am talking about the eastern states. But i dont see why WA couldn't either. Irrigating the Western Australian wheat belt would have enormous financial benefits.

The sandy desert would be an obstacle.. but I'm sure it's not impossible.

 

[GeorgeGrljusich]

Well I am talking about the eastern states. But i dont see why WA couldn't either. Irrigating the Western Australian wheat belt would have enormous financial benefits.

The sandy desert would be an obstacle.. but I'm sure it's not impossible.

You've obviously never been in the Great Sandy Desert.
It is one of the harshest and most remote regions on the planet.
No-one, and I mean no-one lives there with the exception of Telfer Gold mine with all of it's modern day comforts and some small aboriginal populations in Ruddal River NP. And even they piss off to the coast in summer..

And our wheatbelt has more than enough salinity and degredation issues without introducing irrigation.

 

[nut]

And my Bridge reference was pertaining to ex WA politician Ernie Bridge who has been championing this for decades.
This issue also lost an unloseable election for our now Premier Barnett some years ago.

Maybe a solar power system would be more logical as the desert, at least, can be becalmed for days on end.

Solar would work..

It's interesting reading about the Kalgoorlie pipeline...

Construction and criticism



Statue in the water where C.Y.O'Connor committed suicide
The scheme was devised by C. Y. O'Connor who oversaw its design and most of the construction project. Although supported by Premier Forrest, O'Connor had to deal with widespread criticism and derision from members of the Western Australian Parliament as well as the local press based on a belief that scope of the engineering task was too great and that it would never work. There was also a concern that the gold discoveries would soon dry up and the state would be left with a significant debt to repay but little or no commerce to support it.
Sunday Times editor Frederick Vosper - who was also a politician, ran a personal attack on O'Connor's integrity and ability through the paper. Timing was critical, Forrest as a supporter had moved into Federal politics, and the new Premier George Leake had long been an opponent of the scheme.
O'Connor committed suicide in March 1902 less than 12 months before the final commissioning of the pipeline. Lady Forrest officially started the pumping machinery at Pumping Station number one on the 22 January, and on 24 January 1903 water flowed into the Mt Charlotte Reservoir at Kalgoorlie. O'Connors' engineer-in-chief, C. S. R. Palmer took over the project after his death, seeing it through to its successful completion.
The government conducted an inquiry into the scheme and found no basis for the press accusations of corruption or misdemeanours on the part of O'Connor.

This shows the opposition to the scheme and the perceived risks ie.. huge dept and no more gold to pay it off. The difference now is that there is an infinite need for water... we could be the worlds food bowl and all benefit from it.
Why not use the profits from the Iron ore to fund an irrigation system that would supply water to the WA wheat belt and thus securing WA's future way after the Iron runs out??? or are we still in the lucky country that doesn't need to plan for anything?

 

[nut]

You've obviously never been in the Great Sandy Desert.
It is one of the harshest and most remote regions on the planet.
No-one, and I mean no-one lives there with the exception of Telfer Gold mine with all of it's modern day comforts and some small aboriginal populations in Ruddal River NP. And even they piss off to the coast in summer..

And our wheatbelt has more than enough salinity and degredation issues without introducing irrigation.

I've flown over it few times... been to Tanami, Hooker creek, pilbarra..etc..etc..... I know what a desert looks like. If the can build a gas pipes to moomba then they can build a water pipe through the sandy desert....
No one needs to live there... put an airstrip next to the pumping stations and do regular maintenance and there wouldn't be too many problems I wouldn't think. Helicopters could do regular runs also. Not to mention automation and surveillance.

 

[Play by Numbers]

Just to give you an idea nut on comparative distance.

Lake Argyle to Perth is greater than the distance from Brisbane to Hobart.

Much of which is extremely remote, isolated nor is it arable land. Again as mentioned prime agricultural regions which this may traverse (northern tip of the Wheatbelt) in Western Australia are already struggling with soil salinity and acidity.

 

[Play by Numbers]

Solar would work..

It's interesting reading about the Kalgoorlie pipeline...


This shows the opposition to the scheme and the perceived risks ie.. huge dept and no more gold to pay it off. The difference now is that there is an infinite need for water... we could be the worlds food bowl and all benefit from it.
Why not use the profits from the Iron ore to fund an irrigation system that would supply water to the WA wheat belt and thus securing WA's future way after the Iron runs out??? or are we still in the lucky country that doesn't need to plan for anything?

So what?

Your scheme has purely theoretical and mostly non existent monetary gains attached.

The Kalgoorlie pipeline despite criticisms was tied directly to the success of the Goldfields. There was also no other realistic options, whereas in the south west we have a few.

 

[bit_pattern]

Those NW river systems are also particulary vulnerable to overuse, despite heavy rainfalls some years they experience 150% evaporation, taking even 10% out over a few dry years could be absolutely devestating.

 

[nut]

Just to give you an idea nut on comparative distance.

Lake Argyle to Perth is greater than the distance from Brisbane to Hobart.

Much of which is extremely remote, isolated nor is it arable land. Again as mentioned prime agricultural regions which this may traverse (northern tip of the Wheatbelt) in Western Australia are already struggling with soil salinity and acidity.

Thanks for the extra effort regarding the map..
Again my idea is for the easterns states... but i do think it is plauseable for WA as well. Especially after seeing how extensive WA's wheat bealt and agriculture region is, basically runs from Geraldton to Kalgoorlie then south.

The pipe could connect to the kalgoorlie pipe and reverse the 100 year flow...maybe?..

The population of WA and it's ability to grow will always depend on water... if this was no longer a problem then what would that do to the economy??? I'd say it was have a huge stimulus effect surpassing anything that the pilbarra could produce from now til ever...

 

[nut]

So what?

Your scheme has purely theoretical and mostly non existent monetary gains attached.

The Kalgoorlie pipeline despite criticisms was tied directly to the success of the Goldfields. There was also no other realistic options, whereas in the south west we have a few.

Non existent monetary gains??? come on... no Desal costs... no desal running costs... no power plant to run the desal cost... you are ignoring the agricultural gain to an area the size of England... plus the ability to grow the state further.

The price of water will increase... and thus it will become more financially viable....

 

[Play by Numbers]

Non existent monetary gains??? come on... no Desal costs... no desal running costs... no power plant to run the desal cost... you are ignoring the agricultural gain to an area the size of England... plus the ability to grow the state further.

The price of water will increase... and thus it will become more financially viable....

In your imagination that is a comparative economic benefit.

As time goes by desalination will become increasingly cheaper, even now a raft of new filtration technologies are in the works which could increase efficiency by upto 700%.

Not to mention that increased use of water recycling is not only more economically viable but better environmentally than thousands of km of pipelines.

Desalination plants in Australia are now being supplemented or wholly powered by renewable energy sources. So whilst this increases initial outlay costs it decreases running costs (depending on whether the power supply is internally/state owned and managed).

This is also all made irrelevant by the astronomical cost of construction of your theoretical idea. The state could not come close to affording it (never be able to secure the capital and if we could it would cripple us financially) and the federal government could never justify funding it.

You have also conveniently ignored several repeated points against (e.g. evaporation rates). Not to mention the Kalgoorlie pipeline already forms the key component of the largest single fresh water pipeline in the world.
It has undergone substantial upgrades and improvements over the last 100 years to make it what it is.

The G&AWS system to reach where it is today, has been an ongoing multiple decades long process, which has been driven by absolute necessity. Your idea is one where more effective or efficient solutions already exist, so just because it is grand does not make it good.

 

[nut]

In your imagination that is a comparative economic benefit.

As time goes by desalination will become increasingly cheaper, even now a raft of new filtration technologies are in the works which could increase efficiency by upto 700%.

Not to mention that increased use of water recycling is not only more economically viable but better environmentally than thousands of km of pipelines.

Desalination plants in Australia are now being supplemented or wholly powered by renewable energy sources. So whilst this increases initial outlay costs it decreases running costs (depending on whether the power supply is internally/state owned and managed).

This is also all made irrelevant by the astronomical cost of construction of your theoretical idea. The state could not come close to affording it (never be able to secure the capital and if we could it would cripple us financially) and the federal government could never justify funding it.

You have also conveniently ignored several repeated points against (e.g. evaporation rates). Not to mention the Kalgoorlie pipeline already forms the key component of the largest single fresh water pipeline in the world.
It has undergone substantial upgrades and improvements over the last 100 years to make it what it is.

The G&AWS system to reach where it is today, has been an ongoing multiple decades long process, which also had direct and necessary goals. Your idea is one where better ideas, just because it is grand does not make it good.

The Snowy mountain scheme was Grand..... The Kalgoorlie pipeline was grand...

The Kalgoorlie pipeline only proves that it is viable I would have thought.

You ignore the environment impact of the Brine water into the ocean... out of sight out of mind..

How many wind farms have popped upto to run the Desal plants?? you would need 1000's..

 

[bit_pattern]

Look at The Snowy now though, it's virtually ****ed, and as I said those NW river systems are even more sensitive than the Snowy.