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We Should Have Won It That Year
- Thread starter Franc de Borges
- Start date
- Tagged users None
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2001 - Darren Goldspink's 4 goals in the first quarter of the prelim proved too much for the Hawks to overcome against the Bombers.
Then the Croady poster from 65m at the Punt Rd end, which swung viciously late, to deny us the lead in the dying moments.
Oh what could have been against the Lions the following week
Then the Croady poster from 65m at the Punt Rd end, which swung viciously late, to deny us the lead in the dying moments.
Oh what could have been against the Lions the following week
Maybe - The 2nd semi that year was kind of an "If it bleeds you can kill it" game. Essendon left that game believing they could match it with the Hawks and in the GF that proved to be the case. Look closer at the game and you will see Essnedon dominated the entire 2nd half but in the third kicked a stack of points. In the last those shots started going through the middle.
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Strangely enough, a lot of the big ones for Carlton seem to involve Melbourne
1988: Carlton finished 3rd on the ladder, lost preliminary final to Melbourne (who finished 5th), after kicking 14.14. Carlton had beaten Hawthorn in the Grand final the year before, had beaten Hawthorn that season and only lost the second semi final by 21 points, so its not inconceivable that we could have won.
1993: Essendon smashed us in the grand final. But, they were lucky to be there after coming back from 7 goals down against Adelaide in the preliminary final. I still believe to this day that we would have beaten Adelaide on grand final day
1994: This is the completely inexplicable year. We finished 2nd on the ladder after destroying first placed West Coast in round 22. Then, we crashed in the first week of the finals against 7th placed Melbourne (somehow), and bombed even more badly the following week against a Geelong team that had half its side out with injury.
2000: All right, Essendon were untouchable that year. But we were going with them blow for blow until Koutoufides did his knee. Throw in lingering scars from the year before, and it would have been a pretty interesting grand final. Even without Koutoufides we deserved to be there, but somehow blew the semi-final to Melbourne - kicking poorly again and losing despite leading in the last quarter and having 6 more scoring shots.
I'm not sure any of those represent guaranteed premierships, but all were years where would would have been in with a shot had things fallen our way. In 3 of the 4 cases, we would have done a damn sight better than the team that ultimately lost the grand final (and its interesting that those represent 3 of the 4 biggest blowouts in grand final history - clearly when second place falls away inexplicably it sets things up for a massive margin on GF day)
1988: Carlton finished 3rd on the ladder, lost preliminary final to Melbourne (who finished 5th), after kicking 14.14. Carlton had beaten Hawthorn in the Grand final the year before, had beaten Hawthorn that season and only lost the second semi final by 21 points, so its not inconceivable that we could have won.
1993: Essendon smashed us in the grand final. But, they were lucky to be there after coming back from 7 goals down against Adelaide in the preliminary final. I still believe to this day that we would have beaten Adelaide on grand final day
1994: This is the completely inexplicable year. We finished 2nd on the ladder after destroying first placed West Coast in round 22. Then, we crashed in the first week of the finals against 7th placed Melbourne (somehow), and bombed even more badly the following week against a Geelong team that had half its side out with injury.
2000: All right, Essendon were untouchable that year. But we were going with them blow for blow until Koutoufides did his knee. Throw in lingering scars from the year before, and it would have been a pretty interesting grand final. Even without Koutoufides we deserved to be there, but somehow blew the semi-final to Melbourne - kicking poorly again and losing despite leading in the last quarter and having 6 more scoring shots.
I'm not sure any of those represent guaranteed premierships, but all were years where would would have been in with a shot had things fallen our way. In 3 of the 4 cases, we would have done a damn sight better than the team that ultimately lost the grand final (and its interesting that those represent 3 of the 4 biggest blowouts in grand final history - clearly when second place falls away inexplicably it sets things up for a massive margin on GF day)
1984 - Hawthorn led Essendon by 23 points at 3/4 time when they hit the wall and got overrun. The Hawks played Essendon three times in '84 in the lead up to the Grand Final and won all three games.
1987 - Hawthorn beat Carlton in both games during the H&A season. They led Carlton by about 30 points halfway through the 3rd quarter of the 2nd Semi Final when Jason Dunstall went down with a season-ending ankle injury. Hawthorn lost that game and Dermie re-injured his hip. We faced Melbourne one week later which became a war. We suffered further injuries, limped into the Grand Final and got doen by 5-6 goals. We were still the best team.
1990 - Hawthorn suffered a massive run of injuries thoughout the season. Dunstall fractrued his skull. Mew, Buckenara, Curran and Dipper missed most the year. Dermie, Platten and Ayres played hurt. It was a shocking run of bad luck. But Hawthorn was still clearly the best team as shown when they defeated the eventual premiers, Collingwood in Rd 20 by 14 goals!
If it wasn't for bad luck, the premiership honour roll would've looked like this:
1982 Carlton
1983 Hawthorn
1984 Hawthorn
1985 Hawthorn
1986 Hawthorn
1987 Hawthorn
1988 Hawthorn
1989 Hawthorn
1990 Hawthorn
1991 Hawthorn
1992 West Coast
Even in 1992, Hawthorn were defeated by the Eagles in a close one at Subiaco (4th vs 5th) and were eliminated under the controversial McIntyre Final 6 system which was scrapped. Everyone knew the winner of this game would roll the handbag choking Pussies from Geelong. If it wasn't for a couple of arsey goals from Peter Matera that day, the Hawks could've shoud've would've won 10 premierships in a row
Also 2008. I know Geelong were probably the best that year, if not all time, but Hawthorn should've won the premiership. They were the best team in September. But they got a few key injuries, their best players played under duress and it was 18 vs 21 on Grand final day. Oh wait.. They did win it...
That's very biased.
You're maiing the assumption of "IF everything had gone our way every season, we'd have won more flags"
1990? C'mon. I know Dunstall had his face smashed in mid-season but Essendon beat the Hawks TWICE by 10 goals that year. You reckon you were the best team because you thrashed Collingwood? What about losing to the minor-premiers twice by 10 goals? Including WITH Dunstall eatly in the season when you had NO injurues (it was round 2.) The Hawks with Dunstall couldn't even get by Melbourne in the Elimination Final. Essendon had Hawthorn's measure in every way in 1990. Two obliterations.
What if you had lost the Grand Final in 1989? Could easily have happened. What if the umpire didn't give a free kick to Tuck in the 1983 Qualifying Final for a dodgy deliberate out of bounds? Fitzroy would have probably won the premiership.
What if Geelong won the 1991 2nd-semi Final (they only lost by 2 points.) The Cats would have gone on to win the flag.
In those cases the honour roll would have been:
1983 - Fitzroy
1984 - Essendon
1985 - Essendon
1986 - Hawthorn
1987 - Carlton
1988 - Hawthorn
1989 - Geelong
1990 - Collingwood
1991 - Geelong
1992 - West Coast
And you bring up 1984? Essendon finished top and had 35 scoring shots to 21 in the Grand Final. On what basis should Hawthorn have won that? Since when do last quarters not count. There is a perception that essendon won a close Grand Final in 1984. The final margin was 24 points, and 35 shots to 21.
I know Hawthorn had won all 3 games versus Essendon prior to that, but so what? The second-semi was a coin-toss that could have gone either way. In fact, I have no doubt Essendon came away from that game knowing they could beat Hawthorn if they could get another crack at them. And they did.... convincingly in the end.
And how on earth do you put 1985 in your list as "bad luck"???
The way I look at it, is that Hawthorn finished top of the ladder 3 times in that era yet won 5 flags. The amount of "top spots" should roughly equal the amout of Grand Final wins. If anything that's an overachievement. If everything had gone wrong you'd only have won 2 flags.
West Coast, really were the best team of 1991, but travel got to them, and 1983 was an even year. The top 4 teams were all separted by one win in 1983. And of course, the Cats could have pinched a close one in '89.
2007. Gary's heroics were all that stood between the Pies and a premiership that year, Port didn't deserve to be there. Any of Collingwood, West Coast or Geelong deserved it but unfortunately they knocked each other out and 119 will now live forever.
2002. **** you Aker.
West Coast could probably claim 1990 too. Thanks Sumich!
2002. **** you Aker.
West Coast could probably claim 1990 too. Thanks Sumich!
2002 for the pies. obviously that pies side was nowhere near the class of the bris lions of that era but on the day the way the game panned out the pies should have won it
and they probably would have if not for the maggots. yes it's whingeing but they decided the match with 2 decisions within 90 secs of each other - fraser had just put coll in front with 12 min left to play. centre bounce, buckley breaks from the middle and pumps it long to tarrant 1 out with daryl white about 15 m from goal, tarrant is basically assaulted by white but no free ensues much to r walls' incredulity in the commentary box (if he reckons it was a free to collingwood in a grand final then i think that speaks for itself!). had tarrant got the correct decision and goaled, pies were 9 pts clear with just over 11 min to play with rain starting to fall and with all the momentum. instead it goes to the other end and lynch gets one of the softest frees a key forward has got in the history of the game, he goals and bris back in front and go on to seal it with a snap by aker that scrapes in by the length of a certain saints' players' appendage (ie not much - if you saw the photos you know what i mean)
and they probably would have if not for the maggots. yes it's whingeing but they decided the match with 2 decisions within 90 secs of each other - fraser had just put coll in front with 12 min left to play. centre bounce, buckley breaks from the middle and pumps it long to tarrant 1 out with daryl white about 15 m from goal, tarrant is basically assaulted by white but no free ensues much to r walls' incredulity in the commentary box (if he reckons it was a free to collingwood in a grand final then i think that speaks for itself!). had tarrant got the correct decision and goaled, pies were 9 pts clear with just over 11 min to play with rain starting to fall and with all the momentum. instead it goes to the other end and lynch gets one of the softest frees a key forward has got in the history of the game, he goals and bris back in front and go on to seal it with a snap by aker that scrapes in by the length of a certain saints' players' appendage (ie not much - if you saw the photos you know what i mean)
Started a thread on this just before finals last year, which is where you posted it SJ - http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=747990
I agreed in the OP.
They were awesome the day they smashed us, and in such an open season, any side in the 6 plus the Cats could have had a claim. But I wouldn't have wanted to face them in a GF that year, and I reckon most other sides would have felt the same. 92 they probably should've as well, but I don't agree about 94 - got smashed and deserved to. Were very lucky to be there, just the opposite of Essendon 96 - lost two finals by a kick, IIRC, including the famous Plugger one.
Also, to the North supporter who said none, 1998 mean anything to you?
And for the Doggies fans, I met Craig Ellis once - nice bloke - and he agrees about 97. Think I do too.
Chewy, I don't remember the 87 season that well, but that sucks. Remember watching the GF on a stinking hot day and we were clearly cooked. Winning the next two helped though.
SJ
Premium Platinum
Why didn't Port deserve to be there?
Finishing second on the ladder and winning the qualifying and preliminary finals would suggest otherwise.
72 and 82.
In Both cases Richmond were the best team over the season up to the GF. In each case they thumped Carlton in the 2nd Semi (in '72 it took a replay, but still won easily in the end).
Then in '72, Carlton pulled out all the tricks (Jones to 1st ruck, Nicholls permanent FP), kicked straight and won (Richmond had more scoring shots and still lost by 27 pts).
In '82, Richmond stuffed around with their team (Roach/Taylor? Raines/Rioli?) - they were definitely the most talented team. But on GF day, they went in very big, it rained and Carlton won more comfortably than the score would show.
From 79-82 I think on pure footballing ability Richmond were Carlton's equal at worst - but Carlton were far better coached and prepared on match day. Result - Carlton won 3 flags, Richmond won 1.
In Both cases Richmond were the best team over the season up to the GF. In each case they thumped Carlton in the 2nd Semi (in '72 it took a replay, but still won easily in the end).
Then in '72, Carlton pulled out all the tricks (Jones to 1st ruck, Nicholls permanent FP), kicked straight and won (Richmond had more scoring shots and still lost by 27 pts).
In '82, Richmond stuffed around with their team (Roach/Taylor? Raines/Rioli?) - they were definitely the most talented team. But on GF day, they went in very big, it rained and Carlton won more comfortably than the score would show.
From 79-82 I think on pure footballing ability Richmond were Carlton's equal at worst - but Carlton were far better coached and prepared on match day. Result - Carlton won 3 flags, Richmond won 1.
To all Western Bulldogs supporters: Stop sooking about the 2009 PF. You sound like Luke Darcy. We clearly deserved to make the Grand Final.
99 mostly
2001 definitely could have gone our way as well if not for a few key injuries.
2001 definitely could have gone our way as well if not for a few key injuries.
Take your pick?
1997 - Finished 1st on the ladder, great performances in the Qualifying and Preliminary Finals...and then lost to 4th-placed Adelaide after leading by 13 points at half-time.
2004 - Grant Thomas decided to ignore ruckmen/defensive strategies so in the second half of the year the Saints got tired, they were vulnerable up against good midfields; we lost to Port and Brisbane in that time, including to Port by a goal in the Preliminary Final (what was Guerra doing?), and the Lions were breaking down by then.
2005 - Peaked at the right time (almost a reverse of 2004) but a hellbent Swans finished the Saints off in the last quarter of the Prelim - again, their midfield got on top and there wasn't much the Saints could do (except throw Coleman Medalist Gehrig into the backline). Would have given it a shake the next week considering the good run would have continued and with the team up and about.
2006 - Not really a "Should" - officially finished 8th after being beaten by Melbourne in the Elimination Final. But, the Sirengate result reversal meant the Saints finished 6th instead of 3rd (but that's silly to say, considering the whole season would have been different - life just doesn't continue in the exact same way but for one game's result. St Kilda could have finished 2nd or 10th from then on, or whatever). I still wonder regardless - would the AFL have had the guile to take a victory off St Kilda if Baker had have kicked a goal with either of his kicks? It's a lot easier to take away a draw (the obvious and fair result won out though).
My point being: I would throw the fact there was no premiership in 04/05/06 on to GT. He didn't think through the entire team and game plan enough; there was no defensive strategy or Plan B to work with when they were challenged. The Saints did not win a game in his tenure if the margin got out to at least 22 points at any stage of the game.
2009 - How about kicking a goal?
1997 - Finished 1st on the ladder, great performances in the Qualifying and Preliminary Finals...and then lost to 4th-placed Adelaide after leading by 13 points at half-time.
2004 - Grant Thomas decided to ignore ruckmen/defensive strategies so in the second half of the year the Saints got tired, they were vulnerable up against good midfields; we lost to Port and Brisbane in that time, including to Port by a goal in the Preliminary Final (what was Guerra doing?), and the Lions were breaking down by then.
2005 - Peaked at the right time (almost a reverse of 2004) but a hellbent Swans finished the Saints off in the last quarter of the Prelim - again, their midfield got on top and there wasn't much the Saints could do (except throw Coleman Medalist Gehrig into the backline). Would have given it a shake the next week considering the good run would have continued and with the team up and about.
2006 - Not really a "Should" - officially finished 8th after being beaten by Melbourne in the Elimination Final. But, the Sirengate result reversal meant the Saints finished 6th instead of 3rd (but that's silly to say, considering the whole season would have been different - life just doesn't continue in the exact same way but for one game's result. St Kilda could have finished 2nd or 10th from then on, or whatever). I still wonder regardless - would the AFL have had the guile to take a victory off St Kilda if Baker had have kicked a goal with either of his kicks? It's a lot easier to take away a draw (the obvious and fair result won out though).
My point being: I would throw the fact there was no premiership in 04/05/06 on to GT. He didn't think through the entire team and game plan enough; there was no defensive strategy or Plan B to work with when they were challenged. The Saints did not win a game in his tenure if the margin got out to at least 22 points at any stage of the game.
2009 - How about kicking a goal?
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Kerr had torn tendons in his finger, would never have played unless he chose to amputate the finger, sew it up and put a glove on.
Judd was shot. His groin was worn to the ground and the season was doomed as soon as he decided to try play through the injury.
The Pies got within 5 of the Cats in the prelim, but we would never have given a yelp. We were spent.
1984 still pisses me off.
Yeah, losing to the minor-premiers by 24 points after you had only 21 scoring shots to their 35. Yeah... one that got away.
Even at three-quarter time when Hawthorn was up by 23 points, Essendon had more scoring shots at that point of the game.
Essendon over-ran Hawthorn, because they were better than them and deserved to win. The last quarter was a smashing and believe it or not, the last quarter DOES COUNT as part of a game.
It pleases me when Essendon fans rue 99, like North were totally crap that year
Agree about StKilda 04 btw
Agree about StKilda 04 btw
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