Strength Weight/Athletic Training: AFL

[ben_1301]

More soft tissue injuries for the heavy lifting based Collingwood, how can a club with such a huge budget get it so wrong??

 

[ben_1301]

Full review at Collingwood within their high performance team, few heads will roll! serves them right for trying to have their players lift like power athletes. There was a shift in thinking a few years ago that football was predominately an Anaerobic sport, running loads dropped > players got heavier > players got stronger > range of motion decreased > muscular in-balances increased = Players got injured! A few clicked on, some clearly haven't

Football is not dissimilar to road cycling, there's track cyclists pushing pushing 2,000watts (NFL players) but the guys winning all the sprint stages at the tour de france and making millions are only pushing 1,400-1,600watts. The only reason the track cyclists aren't cleaning up on the road and making money is because they don't have the aerobic base, so their anaerobic power is irrelevant, they can't get to the end, same as a footballer!!

Aerobic power in aus rules footballers is a bigger dictator of Anaerobic power during a game than actual peak anaerobic power.

And there can be no argument made against the fact that the best form of injury prevention is game specific loading, take Ben Reid for example it's like history repeating.. soft tissue injury > rehab (squating/deadlifting/glute ham) > onto the track (3-4weeks) > into the VFL (1-2) > afl the bam, another injury. I feel for him, give him 6 months of progressive running/ fatigued running/ match simulation running not 6 weeks! Look at Swan, you can tell by his body shape he clearly doesn't have much load in the legs. I could rant on forever! as much as I dislike Collingwood seeing players careers ruined by incompetence is not cool!

 

[Covertackle]

ben_1301. Im pretty sure the same case was made about or Cricketers, specifically our bowlers who keep pulling up injured. Again weight training has been named as the main culprit.

Just a question. Not sure if you know or if it is relevant..; When an AFL or NRL, Soccer players etc, for that matter tears a hamstring, what is the relationship of fast twitch and slow twitch muscles in the injury? Does one or the other have more relevance to the tear?


Edit; Just found this..

Inappropriate training loads. Your hamstrings are primarily fast twitch Type II fibres that fatigue quickly. High speed work should be done early in workout, as close to warm-up as possible to avoid fatigue.

http://physioworks.com.au/injuries-conditions-1/hamstring-strains-amp-injuries

 

[ben_1301]

ben_1301. Im pretty sure the same case was made about or Cricketers, specifically our bowlers who keep pulling up injured. Again weight training has been named as the main culprit.

Just a question. Not sure if you know or if it is relevant..; When an AFL or NRL, Soccer players etc, for that matter tears a hamstring, what is the relationship of fast twitch and slow twitch muscles in the injury? Does one or the other have more relevance to the tear?

Cricket is a great example, the whole S&C side became too cautious. Take a bowler cut his load in half and he loses condition, I'm not saying to overload him but there's a balance. I've been told that Buttifant was wayyyy too cautious.
Have you ever watched a marathon and seen some dude with the most awkward running action ever and just thought how on earth is this guy not injured, it's just load and conditioning! he could really bombproof his body with a few minor adjustments.

With hamstrings it's generally a fatigue issue, but occasionally the athlete just finds themselves in a ridiculous position and the thing has no choice to snap (Judd earlier this year).
The question is how to do effectively safeguard the hamstring? It's a combination of things, neuro-muscular activation & proficient biomechanincs combined with load is your best bet.

 

[Covertackle]

Cricket is a great example, the whole S&C side became too cautious. Take a bowler cut his load in half and he loses condition, I'm not saying to overload him but there's a balance. I've been told that Buttifant was wayyyy too cautious.
Have you ever watched a marathon and seen some dude with the most awkward running action ever and just thought how on earth is this guy not injured, it's just load and conditioning! he could really bombproof his body with a few minor adjustments.

With hamstrings it's generally a fatigue issue, but occasionally the athlete just finds themselves in a ridiculous position and the thing has no choice to snap (Judd earlier this year).
The question is how to do effectively safeguard the hamstring? It's a combination of things, neuro-muscular activation & proficient biomechanincs combined with load is your best bet.

So would it be more beneficial when doing some load training specifically targeting the hamstring, to cater to the fast twitch muscles? Like sudden bursts of power, ie; plyometrics? Or Will slow, heavy weight training do the same? To build fast twitch muscle does one need to perform a fast twitch specific exercise?

 

[cptkirk]

i don't know a lot of what teams do specifically in the gym but hear are my thoughts on your last few posts Benny boy

1 - getting stronger/heavier doesn't always result in a loss of range of motion...if implemented incorrectly sure but i would fathom to think any club doesn't monitor range of motion at the hips/shoulders on at least a monthly basis and would program accordingly

2 - how players get used might determine what type of sport it is...Swanny goes off a lot so he'd be more anaerobic dominant then say a josh kennedy/jobe watson type...and ditto with muscle imbalances

3 - specific loading is the key no doubt, for training and rehabbing but what is unfortunate is that vfl vs afl is no contest as far as pace and velocity is concerned so its the best they have to use before getting back in the seniors

4 - i'm not sure if they use velocity based training in the clubs yet but that can replicate game type contractions in the gym and thus be a great late rehab option

5 - i am 36 and still paying footy and i have managed an almighty 15mins of team training this year with all other training spent in the gym...it was the same last yr and pretty much every year really but i have never had an injury and have not missed a game from injury for at least 10yrs so maybe the powerlifting gym work the pies do (westside based) is too scewed towards the high force/low velocity side of the force-velocity curve and then instead of transitioning down to the high velocity/low load end, they go straight to it and miss some steps in the middle? i dunno but sometimes it seems like they treat players yr by yr and literally push them to injury if they can see it happening rather then take them out for rehab straight away

6 - wt training for cricketers should really be used to train what they don't do in their action (batting/bowling) and used to even up descrepencies from side to side...it's like trying to strengthen your golf swing with cable rotations and chops - the mechanics change as soon as you add load and therefore could be doing more damage then good

7 - hams are predominantly fast twitch fibres so they are built for explosiveness but pelvic positioning, alignment, muscle balance, core force transference and even ankle mobility can all bring on tears...the shitty ting is that once you've done 1, your plagued eternally

8 - the body will adapt to anything and terrible running mechanics is definitely one of them, go watch a fun run sometime and look at some train wrecks getting around...they'll cover 20kms but at a huge cost to their bodies

phew - a long one there...

 

[cptkirk]

So would it be more beneficial when doing some load training specifically targeting the hamstring, to cater to the fast twitch muscles? Like sudden bursts of power, ie; plyometrics? Or Will slow, heavy weight training do the same? To build fast twitch muscle does one need to perform a fast twitch specific exercise?

all of the above but it's about how you build up to it and also the type of contraction you use...if you can do a 5sec ecc back squat with 100kg that's great but you'll rarely have 5secs to slow down during a footy game so that needs to be transferred to being able to accelerate - decelerate - change direction and accelerate again which requires strength, power, explosiveness, eccentric strength, isometric strength, concentric strength, change of direction mechanics, coordination and the ability contract / relax your muscles as fast as humanly possible

the ability to contract / relax is basically what sets the elite apart from the rest of us and can be trained to be improved but really your born with a ridiculously efficient nervous system

 

[ben_1301]

So would it be more beneficial when doing some load training specifically targeting the hamstring, to cater to the fast twitch muscles? Like sudden bursts of power, ie; plyometrics? Or Will slow, heavy weight training do the same? To build fast twitch muscle does one need to perform a fast twitch specific exercise?

Depends on what you are trying to achieve, injury prevention or performance enhancement, you can not enhance performance without injury prevention unless you are very, very lucky and you body lets you get away with it, but 99% of the time it will catch up with you.
Yes, you'd need to do fast explosive movements to enhance fast twitch, but additional plyo sessions imo aren't required running/jumping/sprinting/ kicking a football is plyo so why would you add extra sessions that risk pushing you load over the edge whilst not really enhancing any other part of your game.

 

[cptkirk]

Depends on what you are trying to achieve, injury prevention or performance enhancement, you can not enhance performance without injury prevention unless you are very, very lucky and you body lets you get away with it, but 99% of the time it will catch up with you.
Yes, you'd need to do fast explosive movements to enhance fast twitch, but additional plyo sessions imo aren't required running/jumping/sprinting/ kicking a football is plyo so why would you add extra sessions that risk pushing you load over the edge whilst not really enhancing any other part of your game.

agreed - you've got to plan everything in and take into account the stress already applied to that muscle/movement/action etc and if extra stress will break the camels back

 

[ben_1301]

agreed - you've got to plan everything in and take into account the stress already applied to that muscle/movement/action etc and if extra stress will break the camels back

Yep, that's why after Buttifant left (conservative approach to running) and Davoren entered (endurance background) Davorens work clashed with their outdated weights coordinator and we're seeing players drop like flys.

 

[ben_1301]

Port and North lighting up the finals, what were the odds of the two teams who do the most running load in the pre-season running the best in the finals!

 

[chargers 09]

Port and North lighting up the finals, what were the odds of the two teams who do the most running load in the pre-season running the best in the finals!

Any rough idea on what there running programs would be? Would make for interesting reading... Perhaps not so fun to actually do though!

 

[ben_1301]

Any rough idea on what there running programs would be? Would make for interesting reading... Perhaps not so fun to actually do though!

Nothing revolutionary, match simulated running! It's blindingly obvious Burgess has built athletes to play Hinkley's game plan, The running program wouldn't have been much different to other clubs, maybe a touch more volume, the real difference would have come from their full ground transitional running drills! Basically just high intensity scratch matches in the heat of Adelaide, same as he would have trained his soccer clubs.

The best way to condition an athlete to play football is... to play football!

 

[cptkirk]

i know the swans use mini games like the handball games you see in the warm ups before games and increase the size and duration of the them as they progress through pre-season..among other things obviously...i wouldn't have thought that training volumes would vary too greatly from team to team to be honest...it;s probably more about how they transition from gym work to track work

 

[showdownhero]

cptkirk I'm sure you've answered this before in one of your many threads/blogs but I'm hoping you'll answer here too

Interested to know how you taper your squats/deads work in season in order to keep the balance between muscle/strength retention but retaining running power/explosiveness. My long distance (only talking 6km here) and sprint running really take a hit from my leg workouts at the gym but I don't want to lose my precious gains.

 

[cptkirk]

in season question at the every beginning of off season?

i am literally in the middle of putting together my new training manual which does have this info in it but you only need about 30% of the training volume to maintain a strength/fitness quality if you continue to train at near on 100% intensity

also different qualities will stay with you for a certain amount of time meaning you don't have to train everything each week

it all comes down to your year long plan though, i mean you can't maintain what you haven't built in the first place - know what i mean?

 

[showdownhero]

in season question at the every beginning of off season?

i am literally in the middle of putting together my new training manual which does have this info in it but you only need about 30% of the training volume to maintain a strength/fitness quality if you continue to train at near on 100% intensity

also different qualities will stay with you for a certain amount of time meaning you don't have to train everything each week

it all comes down to your year long plan though, i mean you can't maintain what you haven't built in the first place - know what i mean?

am looking into bringing more and more running into my fitness routine (because I ****ing love it) and was just looking into getting the best from both worlds

Might split betweens months of running friendly weights training and then months of heavy ass lifting

I don't play any competitive sport ATM

 

[cptkirk]

oh pk not for footy...in that case you could just make the 1st half of the week wts friendly and the back half running friendly or something similar...don't go too long without actually doing 1 or the other

 

[Ess_don]

I pretty much have not gone for a run at all since footy finished up for me, have just been hitting the gym 4x a week though without fail so its not like I've slacked off (diet hasnt dropped off too so skinfolds looking good).. with the theory of gaining muscle and strength before pre-season starts.
But should I be going for a run at least once a week or something or is high intensity lifting somewhat enough to maintain my anaerobic fitness?

At the end of the day I do play in low grade amos, so I dont need to reach Port Adelaide levels of fitness or anything, but I also dont want PS to hit me like a ton of bricks and I blow up and feel like dying after the 1st session..

 

[cptkirk]

you need aerobic capacity before anaerobic capacity so throw in a tempo run day or 2...bare in mind anything aerobic takes only 3 - 5 weeks to adapt to and speed takes months to develop so i know what i'd be doing right now

 

[showdownhero]

you need aerobic capacity before anaerobic capacity so throw in a tempo run day or 2...bare in mind anything aerobic takes only 3 - 5 weeks to adapt to and speed takes months to develop so i know what i'd be doing right now

By speed you mean sprints training?

 

[cptkirk]

yeppo

 

[ben_1301]

you need aerobic capacity before anaerobic capacity so throw in a tempo run day or 2...bare in mind anything aerobic takes only 3 - 5 weeks to adapt to and speed takes months to develop so i know what i'd be doing right now

I feel this idea of adaptation is changing, what level of aerobic adapt are you talking? proper aerobic adapt takes years upon years, I'm talking increased mitochondrial density, capillarization and a VO2 over 70. Despite what we're told footballers aren't great aerobic athletes!!

 

[cptkirk]

they obviously aren't aerobically trained like an 3km runner or anything, more anaerobic-aerobic with more emphasise on repeat speed id say...aerobic capacity is required for recovery btw those repeat speed efforts though, not for the need to run slowly for hrs on end

 

[showdownhero]

yeppo

What's the best way to quantify improvement in speed?

I'm always thinking "if it can't be measured, it can't be controlled" when it comes to fitness