Strength Weight Training: Anything and Everything II

[Aeglos]

Theres a free e-book called Triphasic Training for High School athletes if you want to read more about it. Or the original triphasic training book by Cal Dietz goes into even more detail. Is about sports performance rather than size depending on your goal.

I think I managed to find the full book online. (Otherwise I'd just read a couple of interviews/articles of people implementing it after I saw your post)
Will definitely get through the full original text though as it sounds pretty interesting.
All the research literature points to accentuated eccentrics dramatically improve eccentric, isometric and concentric strength versus a 1:1 eccentric:concentric cadence
Isometrics tend to be pretty joint specific in their strength building so hopefully there's a mention of how they choose joint angles to do isometrics at in Dietz' text

 

[saj_21]

A little AFL themed motivation for those getting a work out today



Don't think just do!

 

[showdownhero]

what are peoples thoughts on 5/3/1?

I'm going to be giving this a go in the not to distant future, will report in with my results.

 

[cptkirk]

I think I managed to find the full book online. (Otherwise I'd just read a couple of interviews/articles of people implementing it after I saw your post)
Will definitely get through the full original text though as it sounds pretty interesting.
All the research literature points to accentuated eccentrics dramatically improve eccentric, isometric and concentric strength versus a 1:1 eccentric:concentric cadence
Isometrics tend to be pretty joint specific in their strength building so hopefully there's a mention of how they choose joint angles to do isometrics at in Dietz' text

it's not even so much increasing strength rather then your ecc/iso/con "v" curve...if the defranco program uses dietz %'s then me + triphasic will be very hard...i did the full triphasic program for about 10 months about 4 years ago

 

[Aeglos]

'Hard' is likely to come down to GPP, what's going on outside of the gym and your conditioning to those loads
I'd imagine DeFranco has written the program off the back of his work with high level high school, college and professional athletes who it is far to say are at the top of the genetic tree
And obviously the more you do towards your training (including recovery) the more you can train. Unfortunately for the common folk things like having meals prepared by someone, daily cryo therapy and massages aren't likely to be feasible lol
For me personally, it took a good 30-36 months (and a significant calorie increase) before I could train the way I do now without feeling like I needed a break by the end of each week

 

[cptkirk]

Which is why the %'s would need to be lower then actual triphasic but I haven't seen defrancos program - maybe it is - but the US puts too much emphasise in high force lifting

 

[Drumroe]

Yeah the program is different to Dietz program, I just used the word triphasic day as I thought that was the easiest way to explain it with blocks of eccentric, isometric and concentric.

How'd you find the proper triphasic when you did it kirky? I was thinking of giving it a go after this program.

 

[cptkirk]

The first phase was a killer in the end with all the 80% squatting but only cos my back didn't like it...I didn't test pre/post though but I still use the principles now

 

[Drumroe]

The first phase was a killer in the end with all the 80% squatting but only cos my back didn't like it...I didn't test pre/post though but I still use the principles now

Yeah that will be my issue, my back wont be able to handle 3 days of heavy squatting.

I also reckon Ill get a bit antsy in the last phase with all ultra submaximal lifting for so long, think Id want to put one day with at least medium intensity in there.

 

[cptkirk]

Last 2 phases are a breeze compared to phase 1 but yeah make the principles work for you

 

[Linda_Lovelace]

Yeah that will be my issue, my back wont be able to handle 3 days of heavy squatting.

I also reckon Ill get a bit antsy in the last phase with all ultra submaximal lifting for so long, think Id want to put one day with at least medium intensity in there.

If you manage it properly (your program), your back should get better as you get stronger and the load gets spread from the weak point. Play around with your stance also. I was standing too wide on deads (prolapsed disc is my ongoing issue) and since I narrowed it I don't get as sore and touch wood have not had a flare up for some time.

 

[showdownhero]

So I'm looking at starting 5/3/1 fairly soon so was messing around with the calculations to have a look at what my workouts would look like.

If I was to follow Wendler's instructions to the letter I would be working below my 3 rep max as my 1 rep max lift for 3 months, strong no thanks to that. For those who don't know the 5/3/1 calculations this is because he ends up taking 85% of your 1RM as your heaviest set for the month,

So I played around with the calculations so at least my first month is working from my 3 rep max as my week 3 1+ set which I can handle.

Also going to use seated barbell press instead of standing because I prefer it.

 

[cptkirk]

So I'm looking at starting 5/3/1 fairly soon so was messing around with the calculations to have a look at what my workouts would look like.

If I was to follow Wendler's instructions to the letter I would be working below my 3 rep max as my 1 rep max lift for 3 months, strong no thanks to that. For those who don't know the 5/3/1 calculations this is because he ends up taking 85% of your 1RM as your heaviest set for the month,

So I played around with the calculations so at least my first month is working from my 3 rep max as my week 3 1+ set which I can handle.

Also going to use seated barbell press instead of standing because I prefer it.

the %'s are set for a reason so if you're not gonna start sub max then why do 531 anyway? why not just work up to a 321 rep max over 3 weeks? you gotta build strength slowly or it goes away as quick as it came anyway

 

[Aeglos]

Think of the first month or so at the lower % as a conditioning/volume phase. Your absolute strength may suffer very slightly, but that's not really the point of 5/3/1
Otherwise you'd be better off doing his powerlifting model (3/5/1 or something iirc) if you're adamant about working with higher %.
Unless you're using a Westside template where you're always at 90% +, there's no other (decent) strength/powerlifting program that doesn't have the bulk of the work in the 75-85% range.
Even the linear/block periodisation % normally drop to 50-60% for the first month of the program

 

[showdownhero]

the %'s are set for a reason so if you're not gonna start sub max then why do 531 anyway? why not just work up to a 321 rep max over 3 weeks? you gotta build strength slowly or it goes away as quick as it came anyway

Think of the first month or so at the lower % as a conditioning/volume phase. Your absolute strength may suffer very slightly, but that's not really the point of 5/3/1
Otherwise you'd be better off doing his powerlifting model (3/5/1 or something iirc) if you're adamant about working with higher %.
Unless you're using a Westside template where you're always at 90% +, there's no other (decent) strength/powerlifting program that doesn't have the bulk of the work in the 75-85% range.
Even the linear/block periodisation % normally drop to 50-60% for the first month of the program

I'll give you an example of what's going on here using my bench press

Heaviest I've ever lifted is 100kg for 4 reps = 1RM of 109kg

Using Wendler's 90% model that becomes 98kg then using his 95% model for 1+ set in week 3 that weight becomes 92.50kg, which I can do for about 6 reps

Then using his 2.5kg increase method it means I won't be approaching my 4RM (actual not theoretical) for my 1+ set for 4 months, That's an absurd waste of time IMO.

Having said that I haven't read his book so maybe there is a justification for this.

I'm happy to be working in the lower % for the bulk of the program and slowly build the strength over time but to spend 4 months working at weights below what I'm already capable of seems like a waste to me.

 

[Aeglos]

I'm still not sure what the/your problem is?
You don't think you'll get stronger doing sets of 6?
And imo 4 months is a fairly short amount of training time in the grand scheme of things.
That said I normally recommend people drop the reload week which will shorten it from 4 months to 3 (which is about the standard length for most programs)

 

[showdownhero]

I'm still not sure what the/your problem is?
You don't think you'll get stronger doing sets of 6?
And imo 4 months is a fairly short amount of training time in the grand scheme of things

My problem is I am already benching 100kg for 4 reps

Why would I switch to a strength building program but wait 4 months (or 16 weeks if you want to be sepcific) to attempt a 1+ set of a weight I know for a fact I can already do for 4 reps. Just seems like a waste of time. What is the benefit of waiting 16 weeks?

 

[Aeglos]

My problem is I am already benching 100kg for 4 reps

Why would I switch to a strength building program but wait 4 months (or 16 weeks if you want to be sepcific) to attempt a 1+ set of a weight I know for a fact I can already do for 4 reps. Just seems like a waste of time. What is the benefit of waiting 16 weeks?

I genuinely think you have missed the point of 5/3/1 (or any non-linear program)
The idea is that at 16 weeks you're doing more than 100kgx4
Would you still consider it a waste of time if you came out and benched 100kgx10 at the 16 week mark?

 

[BrockBlitz]

My problem is I am already benching 100kg for 4 reps

Why would I switch to a strength building program but wait 4 months (or 16 weeks if you want to be sepcific) to attempt a 1+ set of a weight I know for a fact I can already do for 4 reps. Just seems like a waste of time. What is the benefit of waiting 16 weeks?

The justification is that most people have their max ever - which is what they tell everyone. Not their max right now, which is why he uses this method. It's a built in safety factor.

 

[showdownhero]

I genuinely think you have missed the point of 5/3/1 (or any non-linear program)
The idea is that at 16 weeks you're doing more than 100kgx4
Would you still consider it a waste of time if you came out and benched 100kgx10 at the 16 week mark?

Of course I would be happy with that, however I think it's achievable without the arduously slow build up. As mentioned by BrockBlitz the only justification Wendler gives from the low starting point is to prevent ego lifters attempting their BS 1RM and hurting themselves which isn't an issue for me.

Even with my current proposition I'm still adhering to the overall premise of the 5/3/1 program just giving myself a 16 week jump start. If I feel as though I've overreached then I'll spend one cycle without increasing weights, I'd rather goo too hard and have to pull back rather than take baby steps and get frustrated and risk throwing in the towel.

The justification is that most people have their max ever - which is what they tell everyone. Not their max right now, which is why he uses this method. It's a built in safety factor.

That's what I figured (and this is the only justification he gives in t nation articles I've read), as such I'm going to cater the program to what I know I'm capable of and start the program so my week 3 1+ sets are my 3RM.

 

[Aeglos]

From the 5/3/1 powerlifting book

"My coaches emphasized this to me when I was in high school, but unfortunately, I didn‘t listen. Hopefully you will. Starting too light allows for more time for you to progress forward. It‘s easy for anyone – beginner or advanced – to want to get ahead of themselves. Your lifts will go up for a few months, but then they‘ll stall – and stall, and stall some more. Lifters get frustrated and don‘t understand that the way around this is to prolong the time it takes to get to the goal. You have to keep inching forward. This is a very hard pill to swallow for most lifters. They want to start heavy, and they want to start now. This is nothing more than ego, and nothing will destroy a lifter faster, or for longer, than ego.
Progress Slowly

This goes hand in hand with starting light. Slow progress might not get you the best rewards today, but it will tomorrow. The longer you can progress, even if it‘s by one rep or 2.5 pounds, the more it means that you‘re actually making progress. People always scoff when I want their bench to go up by 20-25 pounds their first year. They want the program that will put 40 pounds on their bench in 8 weeks. When they say this, I ask them how much their bench went up in the last year, and they hang their heads in shame. I can‘t understand why someone wouldn‘t want progress – even it‘s just 5 pounds. It‘s better than nothing. It‘s progress.

The game of lifting isn‘t an 8-week pursuit. It doesn‘t last as long as your latest program does. Rather, it‘s a lifetime pursuit. If you understand this, then progressing slowly isn‘t a big deal. In fact, this can be a huge weight lifted off your back. Now you can focus on getting those 5 extra pounds rather than 50.

It‘s always been one of my goals to standing press 300 pounds. In the summer of 2008, I did just that. When someone asked me what my next goal was, my response was simple: ―305 pounds.‖ If you bench press 225 pounds and want to get 275, you have to bench 230 first.

Break Personal Records (PR’s)

This is where the fun of this – and any – program begins and ends. This program allows you to break a wide variety of rep records throughout the entire year. Most people live and die by their 1-rep max. To me, this is foolish and shortsighted. If your squat goes from 225x6 to 225x9, you‘ve gotten stronger. If you keep setting and breaking rep records, you‘ll get stronger. Don‘t get stuck just trying to increase your one rep max. If you keep breaking your rep records, it‘ll go up. There‘s also a simple way of comparing rep maxes that I‘ll explain later."

I'll post the powerlifting %s that has more heavier sets

 

[Aeglos]

"Now I know I will get a ton of question as to why there is a switch of weeks 1 and 2. The biggest reason is that it allows you to take singles on the two heaviest weeks and have a week off in between them (this will be shown in the book). But here is how it is set up:

Week 1 – 3x3 + heavy singles Week 2 – 3x5
Week 3 – 5/3/1 + heavy singles Week 4 – 3x5, deload

So with the above example, we have now see that the 4 week program is waved like this:

Week 1 – Heavy Week 2 – Medium Week 3 – Heavy Week 4 – Light

So what this does is help you recover between the heavier weeks and the heavy singles. What you will notice in the programs and outlines in the books is that the 3x5 week (week 2) will not be done for max reps. "
Week 1

Week 2

Week 3

Week 4


70% x 3 reps


65% x 5 reps


75% x 5 reps


40% x 5 reps

80% x 3 reps


75% x 5 reps


85% x 3 reps


50% x 5 reps

90% x 3 or more reps


85% x 5 or more reps


95% x 1 or more reps


60% x 5 reps

*edit* well that table didn't post very well at all

 

[showdownhero]

From the 5/3/1 powerlifting book

"My coaches emphasized this to me when I was in high school, but unfortunately, I didn‘t listen. Hopefully you will. Starting too light allows for more time for you to progress forward. It‘s easy for anyone – beginner or advanced – to want to get ahead of themselves. Your lifts will go up for a few months, but then they‘ll stall – and stall, and stall some more. Lifters get frustrated and don‘t understand that the way around this is to prolong the time it takes to get to the goal. You have to keep inching forward. This is a very hard pill to swallow for most lifters. They want to start heavy, and they want to start now. This is nothing more than ego, and nothing will destroy a lifter faster, or for longer, than ego.
Progress Slowly

This goes hand in hand with starting light. Slow progress might not get you the best rewards today, but it will tomorrow. The longer you can progress, even if it‘s by one rep or 2.5 pounds, the more it means that you‘re actually making progress. People always scoff when I want their bench to go up by 20-25 pounds their first year. They want the program that will put 40 pounds on their bench in 8 weeks. When they say this, I ask them how much their bench went up in the last year, and they hang their heads in shame. I can‘t understand why someone wouldn‘t want progress – even it‘s just 5 pounds. It‘s better than nothing. It‘s progress.

The game of lifting isn‘t an 8-week pursuit. It doesn‘t last as long as your latest program does. Rather, it‘s a lifetime pursuit. If you understand this, then progressing slowly isn‘t a big deal. In fact, this can be a huge weight lifted off your back. Now you can focus on getting those 5 extra pounds rather than 50.

It‘s always been one of my goals to standing press 300 pounds. In the summer of 2008, I did just that. When someone asked me what my next goal was, my response was simple: ―305 pounds.‖ If you bench press 225 pounds and want to get 275, you have to bench 230 first.

Break Personal Records (PR’s)

This is where the fun of this – and any – program begins and ends. This program allows you to break a wide variety of rep records throughout the entire year. Most people live and die by their 1-rep max. To me, this is foolish and shortsighted. If your squat goes from 225x6 to 225x9, you‘ve gotten stronger. If you keep setting and breaking rep records, you‘ll get stronger. Don‘t get stuck just trying to increase your one rep max. If you keep breaking your rep records, it‘ll go up. There‘s also a simple way of comparing rep maxes that I‘ll explain later."

I'll post the powerlifting %s that has more heavier sets

Thanks for posting that like I said I hadn't read his book so it's interesting to read some deeper analysis into what it's all about.

Having said that I'm still going to start the program with my 3RM max operating for my final sets on week 3, this is still a step back as following the program it's the only time for a month I will be attempting to lift that volume of weight.

Maybe I'm shooting myself in the foot but if in 2 months time I feel like I've fkd up then I'll scrap it and start from scratch.

 

[Drumroe]

Id recommend just buying the book, its like 10-15 dollars. As others have stated, his premise is to build strength over a long long time, not just 3-4 months where you constantly stall etc as you go. In his latest programs he does incorporate joker sets and some other stuff for some heavier lifting throughout.

 

[BrockBlitz]

i agree with this sentiment. In my programs I lift a single at about a 90% 1rm in the warm up and then back off to 75% for all my working sets. I've never stopped getting stronger from this method and I never get burn out from too much heavy lifting.