Strength - Weight Training: Anything and Everything II | Page 193 | BigFooty

Strength Weight Training: Anything and Everything II

Discussion in 'Health, Fitness, Training and Nutrition' started by cptkirk, Sep 22, 2011.

  1. showdownhero

    showdownhero Premiership Player

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    I haven't signed up anywhere yet.

    Assuming the facilities are ok I'm 99% sure I'm going to end up at Goodlife Waverly Park as it's the closest to home
     
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  2. Mofra

    Mofra Moderator

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  3. Jaxes

    Jaxes Club Legend

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    whole workout routine up shit creek lately. sleep pattern all over the shop so recovery has been pretty horrible. been put on anti depressants now though so hopefully get back to normal soon.

    going to cut over the next few months as a have put on a couple of kegs this year and need to drop about 10 i think. have put on some muscle in the meantime though, shoulders a bit broader and arms a little bigger which is good.

    a mate wants me to join anytime fitness and start going with him cos he has no motivation if he's by himself, but i have no motivation to want to go to an actual gym. extra gear would be nice but i don't want to deal with all the other ********s there lol. writing this has reminded me i need to go pick up some 20kg plates though, must do that
     
  4. Aeglos

    Aeglos Club Legend

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    Few things I disagree on;
    (1) needing hamstring strength to achieve a full depth squat. The equivalent would be needing bicep strength to be able to do a dip or a push up
    (2) squats are a good hamstring exercise; even with a wide stance and a significant torso angle the quadriceps, adductors (in particular adductor magnus), gluteals and low back will do the bulk of the work. Squats require knee extension; the opposite movement to what the hamstrings produce. In other words, high hamstring engagement squatting (particularly at the bottom of the movement) is a bad thing.
    (3) split squats/lunges are good hamstring exercises. Same as squats except the low back will do less work due to the smaller amount of weight and therefore demand on the torso. These can definitely be manipulated a bit more than regular squats but you’re still going to find that the quads, adductors and gluteals do the bulk of the work.

    To truly encompass the entire hamstring you’d need to do exercises that;
    • involve knee flexion with the hip in flexion eg seated leg curl
    • involve knee flexion with the hip in extension eg lying leg curl
    • involve hip extension with the knee in extension eg barbell good morning
    • involve hip extension with the knee in flexion eg seated good morning

    If you wanted to get really technique you could further divide into passive/active for the non moving joint (eg lying leg curl is prone hip extension vs a GHR that has active hip extension) and also open chain vs closed chain (good morning vs reverse hyper)
     
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  5. benneth

    benneth Club Legend

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    Good luck man, hopefully they do the job and help get you sorted out :thumbsu:
     
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  6. Mofra

    Mofra Moderator

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    I am concerned I'm quad dominant (running & especially cycling are quad dominant activities) so am looking to add another accessory exercise now I'm back to doing two full leg days per week, hence the hamstring article posted when I was searching for information.

    Sadly I don't have a hamstring curl machine at my gym, it's a small gym and a little bare so it looks like SLDLs might be it.

    On the above: Strangely I've found DOMS to be far, far less severe when adopting a slightly narrower stance when squatting. Into the second month now, I've gone from squatting once per week than being in pain every step for two days to squatting twice per week, still getting a deadlift session in too (on one of my upper body days) plus accessory leg work. That's while maintaining the cycling volume as well.
     
  7. Gralin

    Gralin Moderator

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    you can always find a spot where you can wedge your heels under a bit of equipment that won't move and do nordic curls
     
  8. benneth

    benneth Club Legend

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    I found rack pulls about 5 cm below knee but where you setup with shin touching bar were awesome for hams. Doesn't irritate my lower back like RDLs either
     
  9. Aeglos

    Aeglos Club Legend

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    A change in stance will shift where the majority of the work is being done.
    Where was the DOMS you were getting originally?

    You’ve got a few dyi options for leg curls as well




     
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  10. EasternTiger

    EasternTiger Premiership Player

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  11. BrockBlitz

    BrockBlitz Club Legend

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    In an ideal work Aeglos we'd do that. However that assumes the client/you/athlete has enough time to spend in the gym to do all of this sort of 1%ers. For bang for your buck protocols that are hamstring protective in football and strength its as simple as the following:

    1. Romanian deadlift
    2. nordic curls

    To reduce the risk of hamstring tears the major thing we need is heavy eccentric loading as the hip goes into flexion(romainian) and when the knee goes into extension(nordic).

    I know the afl club with the least hamstring injuries over the last 2 seasons used this protocol.

    If you just want jacked hamstrings or gym strength disregard everything I just said.
     
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  12. Mofra

    Mofra Moderator

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    Cheers this is great - I'm looking more for injury prevention. I've had chronic patella tendonitis in one knee, sadly I think I really need to dial back the running even further.

    I didn't think it would help much, but using a knee sleeve (not a wrap) for leg day has proved amazing. Will keep that going for a few weeks then visit my osteo for an annual tune-up.
     
  13. BrockBlitz

    BrockBlitz Club Legend

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    You're probably already doing this but 5x45 seconds isometric holds for tendinitis prior to training works wonders too. It has an analgesic effect and allows you to get the training done relatively pain free. Patella tendons are a weird one - I've seen them respond to all sorts of weird and wonderful protocols. My general way of dealing with them is:

    1. Isometrics
    2. heavy eccentrics - so something like a 60% 1rm leg press but the eccentric is single leg and slow. So it's supra maximal
    3. slow full range loading
    4 - progressively faster loading
    5 impact
     
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  14. Mofra

    Mofra Moderator

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    Cheers, thanks.
    I have been doing single leg leg press after squats (based primarily as the dominant 80s Australian cycling teams swore by it!) in the 8-10 rep range. Will try dialing down the weight a light and focusing on the eccentric.

    Interestingly the PT at my gym in the mornings said the same thing - eccentric hamstring loading (before we both complained at the lack of equipment there that isolates the hamstring).

    Have also found single leg slant board squats in the higher rep range has helped a little for the tendonitis too (isolate and strengthen he medialis), but I'm wary of overloading the quads given total weekly volume.
     
  15. BrockBlitz

    BrockBlitz Club Legend

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    Huge fan of slant boards and the heel drop. It doesn't load the tendon much but hits VMO.
     
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  16. Aeglos

    Aeglos Club Legend

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    Speaking of Nordics
     
  17. showdownhero

    showdownhero Premiership Player

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    Barbell goodmornings are my favourite hamstring exercise
     
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  18. Aeglos

    Aeglos Club Legend

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    This study is relatively old now, but basically if you follow daily undulating periodisation over a training week (essentially some combination of light, medium and heavy days) then training hypertrophy on day 1, power on day 2 and strength on day 3 is the most effective order for maximal strength development; presumably because the gap of 96 hours between the hypertrophy day and strength day allows for more reps (and therefore volume) to be performed.
    The study is quite long (it was done for a thesis) so if you cbf reading the whole thing a training week might be
    Monday - 5x8x70%
    Wednesday - 5x1x80%*
    Friday - 3xFx90%
    Then you’d increase % by 2.5 a week.
    https://www.vanguardbodybuilding.co...To-Two-Different-Models-Of-Daily-Undulati.pdf

    *this figure would be to improve lifting numbers. For actual power output needed in sports it’d be more like 5x5x30-40%
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018 at 8:12 AM
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  19. juss

    juss Brownlow Medallist

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    Hi guys, any advice for a semi-beginner (3-4 months of casual weight training with no consistent pattern), the following workout has been recommended to me, goals are to generally increase strength and size.

    M, W, F, 3 day full body ABA BAB split 3x8 for all exercises

    A:
    Squats
    Bench Press
    Rows

    B:
    Deadlifts
    Pull ups
    Overhead shoulder Press

    Thoughts? I've researched online but there is so much conflicting advice. I can't afford a PT at the moment.

    Cheers :)
     
  20. Aeglos

    Aeglos Club Legend

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    At your early stage of training pretty much anything you do consistently will get you results.
    I’d start with a single full body workout done 3x then start alternating workouts/exercises or shifting to weekly progressions when you can no longer progress

    Eg start with
    Overhead press 3x8 (2.5kg per session)
    Barbell squat 3x10 (5kg per session)
    Bench press 3x8 (2.5kg per session)
    Barbell row 3x8 (2.5kg per session)
    Romanian deadlift 3x10 (5kg per session)
    Bicep curls or pull ups 3x8 or 3xF (2.5kg per session or an extra rep)

    Once you can no longer add 2.5kg per session to an exercise (overhead press or bicep curls will come first) you’ve got a few options
    a) pick an exercise (or exercises) to alternate it with (so in the case of overhead press you might do standing with a barbell in the first workout then seated with a barbell in the second workout
    b) stick to the same exercise but change rep ranges eg Monday would be 3x8, Wednesday 3x12 then Friday 3x5
    c) pick a new exercise and repeat the process eg switch to seated barbell press and do 3x8 every session adding 2.5kg a session

    The next step (in a full body workout) would be varying rep ranges AND exercises across a week
    Eg Monday - standing overhead press 3x8, Wednesday - seated barbell press 3x12, Friday - push press 3x5
    Monday - Romanian deadlift 3x8, Wednesday - back raises 3x12, Friday - rack deadlift 3x5
    You’re a few months away from that though.
     
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  21. benneth

    benneth Club Legend

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    Would he not be better off starting on 2 x 8 rather than 3 x 8?

    Seems like the work will add up really quickly, especially 3 X 10 squats once it gets heavier, and also practising form as a novice, you'd be pretty fatigued by the 3rd set?

    If he started at 2 x 8 he's also got more room to move when stalling?

    Not saying I'm right, I'm no expert, just wondering why you'd go for 3 sets over 2 sets for a beginner.
     
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  22. Aeglos

    Aeglos Club Legend

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    - Puts volume in a more optimal range (24-30 reps per muscle group vs 16-20; 4x6 is arguably better than 3x8 but then session time and subsequently test levels and energy becomes a factor)
    - when you start out and weights are lighter you get an additional 8-10 reps “practise”
    - allowing for intensity, the last few reps of your last set are going to suck whether that’s your 2nd or 10th, and if anything more sets will limit weight somewhat which *should* equate to a higher % of reps before fatigue
    - semantically there’s less room to move with 2 sets as you can only cut back that to 1, whereas starting with 3 you could cut it to 2 and then 1. You’ll progress further in weight on the bar in the short term doing 2 sets vs 3 sets due to the fatigue factor but this doesn’t necessarily equate to being better (otherwise you might as well do a 1x1 program). I also guarantee that no matter how fast or slow you progress (by means of program manipulation rather than natural progress) that in 5+ years time you’ll end up in exactly the same place and that it’ll just be the graph of how you got there that looks different
     
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  23. juss

    juss Brownlow Medallist

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    Thanks for being so thorough, that seems like a huge workload per session though, is that common for newbies?
     
  24. Aeglos

    Aeglos Club Legend

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    It’s “only” 18 working sets which is pretty stock standard in most beginner/intermediate programs that aren’t starting strength.
    The thing most difficult with the program I’ve outlined is the high number of compound movements, though it’s designed to give certain muscle groups a rest between exercises eg shoulders get a bit of a rest while squatting between overheads and bench press, back gets a bit of a break benching between squats and rows.
    If you’re looking to gain strength/size you should be eating enough to handle it, and starting out you’ll be stressing your movement co-ordination at least as much as your actual physical limits.
     
  25. Aeglos

    Aeglos Club Legend

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    Also fwiw depending on the athleticism and mobility of the person I’m dealing with, often I’ll get them to do a similar program but utilising machines instead of free weights for a couple of months to build up a base level of strength and conditioning eg seated smith machine press, unilateral leg press, machine chest press, chest supported row, 45 degree back raise, lat pulldown.
    Normally I get them to do higher reps to start (2x25 or something like that initially) and I’ll only ever do this if I’m not going to be working with them one on one (as I’d just teach them how to squat etc in that case).
     
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