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Universal Love Welcome to Carlton Graham Wright
- Thread starter Stamos
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I hope he tidies up the recruiting department and has some coaches on the go for next season.
I'm tired of banging on about our coaching. I copped a big grilling after ripping into Voss and co after we had just made a prelim. Turns out I was right. Tactically we are horrendous. Team selection wise just as bad.
As for recruiting. We got rid of the only small forward with a small forward brain who could kick goals and had a reliable body. We have 10 or so smallish forwards on our list and none of them can play decent football at AFL level. Another thing I could see years ago but the football department appeared to be blind to.
There you go. There's a really big weakness in our recruiting that is probably not the head but the team under him as the issue was there when Silvagni was the head and nothing has changed since Austin has been there.
Recruitment takes advice from coaching. Recruitment has been drafting the wrong midfielders. That's more than likely on coaching giving poor direction.
Recruitment has recruited a lot of smaller forwards. So that's probably coming from coaching. The quality is terrible. That's on recruitment.
We have pretty much got to the final stages of our list build to take us to premiership contenders and fallen over due to what has happened with our forward line recruitment.
We got about this far under Ratten and failed to complete the final steps and regressed as teams usually do when they fail the final steps.
We are either going to crash and burn down the bottom of the ladder for a while and start a significant rebuild or we need to pull off a really big recruiting spree and fix our mistakes quick. Wright has been at clubs which have. So I am hoping he steps in here.
I'm tired of banging on about our coaching. I copped a big grilling after ripping into Voss and co after we had just made a prelim. Turns out I was right. Tactically we are horrendous. Team selection wise just as bad.
As for recruiting. We got rid of the only small forward with a small forward brain who could kick goals and had a reliable body. We have 10 or so smallish forwards on our list and none of them can play decent football at AFL level. Another thing I could see years ago but the football department appeared to be blind to.
There you go. There's a really big weakness in our recruiting that is probably not the head but the team under him as the issue was there when Silvagni was the head and nothing has changed since Austin has been there.
Recruitment takes advice from coaching. Recruitment has been drafting the wrong midfielders. That's more than likely on coaching giving poor direction.
Recruitment has recruited a lot of smaller forwards. So that's probably coming from coaching. The quality is terrible. That's on recruitment.
We have pretty much got to the final stages of our list build to take us to premiership contenders and fallen over due to what has happened with our forward line recruitment.
We got about this far under Ratten and failed to complete the final steps and regressed as teams usually do when they fail the final steps.
We are either going to crash and burn down the bottom of the ladder for a while and start a significant rebuild or we need to pull off a really big recruiting spree and fix our mistakes quick. Wright has been at clubs which have. So I am hoping he steps in here.
Easily.He was probably better all the time - although maybe not Kreuzer before he did his knee.
- Thread starter
- #204
Which small forward with a small forward brain did we get rid of?
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Owies
- Thread starter
- #206
Owies absolutely did not have a small forward brain. The suggestion is laughable.
He had a medium forward brain in a small forward body.
JustaBattler
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This smacks a tad too much on W/L and "I don't care why" type of thinking GB tactics and team selection
You point the finger ( again) at Voss and then spend a lot of time decrying the lack of decent small forwards - which kind of refutes your own argument.
Unless you think that Voss was doing all the recruiting since he arrived as well?
Which is kind of refuted by the fact the he wanted Houston and was knocked by for Young AND the exit of Owies ( who I don't care on iota about) and Kennedy which I think was a monumentally stoopid decision.
So is it Game plan and tactics from a brain dead coach who is regarded as one of the all time great footballers and has got Carton to finals 2 years in a row now - should have been 3 if not for brain dead Owies and Stocker ...
OR
is it (quite simply) an unbalanced team in terms 10 very good players and the rest being either developing or just not up to top standard AFL players?
As for tactics- Hansen was suppossedly running the in game tactical aspect of the game - until now where he doesnt have a title anymore...
I get more info from watching games than reading commentary on here btw...
when I watched the Richmond game in slow motion in replay to figure out what went wrong- all I could see was players everywhere in the right positions and players far far too often making sofish, dumb and or bad execution - nowhere more ridiculously highlighted than when Docherty couldn't even give off a simple 2 meter handball to SJ whop was perfectly positioned for a get out recieve OR McGovern and Haynes falling over each other and letting a Richmond player come in and pick up a ball an inch off the sideline,, or Motlop deciding to ignore 4 players in the clear in opposition 50 and scrub a kick to an unmarked Richmond player, opr McGovern kicking off the ground into the corridor straight plop into the hands of a Richmond player ...I could go on
my point is comedy caper execution isn't on Voss - at some point we all have to embrace the deficiencies of the weaker players and maybe alter pre-season expectations and entitlements accordingly.
Maybe just maybe and have a real hard think about this ....
The current list is a middling Club list and Voss has managed to get the list to outperform and all this on the back of a few genuine top4 stars and a bunch of plodders beside them. perhaps any coach/game plan/tactics is only as good as the cattle he has to execute? Maybe the total dominance in every area of stats - see repeat entries and failure to maintain territory/convert despite 25% more opportunity that opposition speaks very loudly regarding players not coaches?
Maybe Cripps instead of bragging about giving Richmond some payback before teh game with his big nice PR trained smile should focus on getting his team to win a game. Maybe just maybe insrtead of drinking their own bathwater the players might figure out that the competition is pretty even and it doesn't take too much being off your game to lose a game....
Maybe the real problem is that the players despite the best money and best mollycoddling - are just not up to it.
I'm relaxed it is a long season and things can be improved or stay as they are all get worse...most of it is up to teh players but yes - every coach is on borrowed time- they are there to be executed.
We will see what this group is made of soon enough starting Thursday night.
Rubbish. He just didn't keep accidently popping up in space and accidently kicking goals and accidently averaging a goal and a half per game the last two season. That wasn't accidental or luck, that was knowing how to play forward. Something every other player outside of Curnow and McKay don't have. Owies has a forwards brain. E Hollands somewhat does. Who knows with Smith, his footy IQ is so high I am willing to bet he would be all over it. The medium forward small forward thing is all rubbish. You either know how to play forward and have the skillset for it or you don't.
I've spent a lot of time criticising Voss over the years. He has not pushed hard enough for pace or to modernise the team game plan and structure.
Read what I wrote. I did not criticise Voss for lack of small forwards.
Again, have you read what I wrote. I clearly stated how recruiting works at AFL clubs. The coaching department tell the recruiting department what they want. Positions wise, role wise, trait wise. The recruiting department attempt to chose the best individuals with those qualities. Poor recruiting and list/team makeup is either poor advice from the coaches or poor selection from recruitment. Our issues are a little of both.
Again, Voss does not recruit individuals, he gives recruitment direction. He didn't get Houston, did he get a Houston type? Maybe we just couldn't. Voss would have asked for a lot and got some of what he asked for.
The big reasons Kennedy and Owies are gone is because we needed list space. The ones who should have gone are under contract. You can look at list management for that one.
We are where we are because of both. Team selection against Brisbane in the prelim a few years ago was shocking and last year just as bad. We keep picking the slowe midfields we can and the prelim, we took out two of our better forwards who could also keep down attacking half backs. We got killed for pace and killed off half back while having no half back pace of our own. We shot ourselves in the foot, IMO we could have made a grand final. Maybe.
Even the other night. We were desperate for forward targets. We had Silvagni, McGovern, Haynes and Weitering all Defence with Docherty on the bench. Blind freddy can see that you get Docherty back and Silvagni or McGovern forward. This sort of thing, under Voss happens every second week. He and his group are lower tier coaches.
I don't care how good a footballer Voss was. Parkin, Sheedy, Pagan, Clarkson. Just good average players. Fagan, not even AFL. List goes on.
I don't care about the Docherty, McGovern or Haynes misteaks. Teams should be able to make plenty of mistakes every game and win and they do. You also expect some sloppiness round 1. That's not what lost us the game.
Reality is, we would be a much better side with some genuine forward potency. We don't have it and that makes it exhausting for our players and easy for the opposition.
Could Voss win a flag? I think so. I think any B grade coach and group can with the right side. You can win flags with weak spots but not too many and at this point we have too many.
The coach doesn't think out of the box all that well. Last few finals appearances he has dropped the wrong players. I could go through it, I have at length before but can't be stuffed. In short he has dropped players in for and point of difference players for ones who are slow and are underdone and has repeated the process every finals series.
The recruitment has been poor. We have roughly 10 small forwards and none of them are overly impactful at AFL level. So this is recruitment. Possible a little development but looking at the modern small forwards, ours don't have the natural traits they do. The 2022 season made it loud and clear that pace in the middle, flanks and wings had become super important. A lot of teams have adjusted to that. We have not done as well as other sides at adjusting our list to this. I think this is either poor direction from coaching or a recruitment team that is failing to deliver.
End of the day I think this club really struggles to get high profile/demand coaching staff to want to come here. We have burnt our reputation to shreds. So I think we have takes whoever we could get. Very much looks that way. A lot of our coaches come from failing clubs and are off cuts from clubs who have reviewed, made changes and unloaded. I think when it comes to acquiring people we are beggars and definitely not choosers.
- Thread starter
- #210
What percentage of Owies goals came from marks or free kicks?
Players with a small forward brain know how to crumb. They know how to win the ball at ground level.
Owies was great at finding space, and getting on the end of a chain. It is not the same thing. If he had a great small forward brain we would have kept him.
JustaBattler
Everyone Looks Better In Blue
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I care about players being able to execute the basics much more than about philosophising about how crapola Carlton is mate and then blaming Voss for everything- lets leave it at that I think you and I are on totally different pages and look at games in totally different ways - that is fine different opinions are what make forums interesting.
bringdoullback
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- Mar 31, 2018
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Care to expand in your logic
Does it matter. He scores goals. Because he has the instincts of a forward. You're trying to find an excuse and justify the clubs actions. I wasn't against getting rid of Owies, bit I wish it didn't have to be him. Cottrell, Fogarty, Fantasia and Evans aren't as good.
He was our third best goal kicker and averaged around 1.5 goals per game which is significantly better than the other forwards. This is crazy how you're knocking a player for how they get their goals. Guess what, Eddie Betts kicked a significant amount of goals from marks and free kicks and he was a star.
What you are describing is someone who has a forward's brain so you are backing up what I am saying then disagreeing with me.
I'd rather blame players who are forwards and their job is to kick goals and set them up. You have 65 inside 50's, a massive supply.
But a few individuals fumbled and made some skill errors.
I think not touching the ball, not making tackles etc. Is far far worse than getting involved and making some skill errors.
However bad McGovern, Docherty, Haynes and whoever we are blaming for the losses. Evans, Motlop, Williams, Cottrell and Fogarty may as well have been in the crowd. Not involved, not in the contest, hardly touched it or scored despite the huge supply and basically absent.
I'm willing to forgive skill errors round 1. A lot of good players like Kade Simpson were guaranteed to be messy round 1. It shouldn't cost you games. Making mistakes doesn't cost you games, doing nothing or next to nothing does and that's what we got from our forwards.
Focus less on what you see and more on what you don't see but should be seeing.
JustaBattler
Everyone Looks Better In Blue
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Thats good advice I'll take that into very serious consideration - thanks!
I could post this in a number of threads, but given Wright will be steering to ship, what are people's thoughts on what changes should be made?
From what I have seen, people are now aligning to point blame in a single direction, but still dancing around making their thoughts known on the changes
I'd go down this path, unless this side implodes on field prior to the bye
Back Voss in for the last year of his contract (not fazed if his moved on either). Clear out all assistants, refresh his support staff, but Power to join the assistants
Austin to be instructed to pivot, brutal calls to replace half of our mids and half of our small forwards with better speed, agility, kicking skills. The names would be debated heavily.
Also start picking off conditional players, many of which are in that one paced category
If Austin isn't trusted to undertake this strategy, move him on and target someone who can
From what I have seen, people are now aligning to point blame in a single direction, but still dancing around making their thoughts known on the changes
I'd go down this path, unless this side implodes on field prior to the bye
Back Voss in for the last year of his contract (not fazed if his moved on either). Clear out all assistants, refresh his support staff, but Power to join the assistants
Austin to be instructed to pivot, brutal calls to replace half of our mids and half of our small forwards with better speed, agility, kicking skills. The names would be debated heavily.
Also start picking off conditional players, many of which are in that one paced category
If Austin isn't trusted to undertake this strategy, move him on and target someone who can
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l tend to be of the view things will stay as they are unless Cook brings forward his end date.
Following this l expect Wright to start making changes across coaching & list management.
We have 2 wins from last 11 afl games, which is pretty awful, if this trend does not change soon, possibly alot of things may change sooner.
- Thread starter
- #218
From the outside, I would guess that Wright's priority should be replacing Lloyd.
Changes to the footy department (assistant coaches etc) should be made by the Head of Footy rather than the CEO. Although I wouldn't mind if Wright is hands on, particularly during any transition period.
I’m tipping (maybe more than tipping) there’ll be a number of changes in football dept in particular coaching appointments and list changes (in particular that may be highly controversial and unpopular) under Wright’s stewardship. 
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As Soapy said, Voss is a great leader, but he needs clever, tactical people around him - so back him in and put the right people around him.
but if he's stubborn and resistant to change - including change of tactics, he must be axed at season's end if things don't turn around for us.
but if he's stubborn and resistant to change - including change of tactics, he must be axed at season's end if things don't turn around for us.
Don't be surprised that a clear strategy hasn't already been drawn up to target coaching and list management
You mean a high end player now departing ? Nothing should be off the table, so to speakI’m tipping (maybe more than tipping) there’ll be a number of changes in football dept in particular coaching appointments and list changes (in particular that may be highly controversial and unpopular) under Wright’s stewardship.
bradfisher14
Not actually Brad Fisher
I would be doing similar, but with a few tweaks.
First step would be a solid internal review led by Wright/Cook into the footy department.
It's pretty obvious Lloyd will be moving on.
Voss should also be moved on around mid-season. Power as interim. Start putting in the work now to identify the next McRae/Mitchell/Kingsley. Wright is well placed to uncover our next great head coach and this should be his biggest priority. We need to get our ducks in a row and can't afford to waste another year with Voss as our head coach.
All assistant coaches moved on. I would consider retaining Power depending on the findings of the review and how he performs as the interim.
Austin retained, depending on review findings. Strategy moving forward needs to be pace, mongrel, skill, and footy IQ.
Harsh calls to be made on a number of senior players to free up list spots and cap room. Harry and TDK headline the outgoings:
1. Silvagni - TRADE - good honest player but we need to do better than that and move past sentiment. 3rd rounder.
3. Motlop - TRADE - just not good enough. Hopefully he still has some trade value. 3rd rounder.
10. McKay - TRADE - just don't think it's smart to keep players on your list that aren't in a rush to win flags. 1st rounder +
11. McGovern - DELIST - one of the worst contracts we've ever given out and that's saying something.
12. De Koning - TRADE - bit of a heartbreaker, but we will get a lot in exchange for him and we're better off finding a ruck on the merry-go-round that will give us similar production for half the price. 2 x 1st rounders +
14. Fantasia - DELIST - thanks but no thanks.
15. Docherty - RETIRE - I think it's time, but I could be persuaded into keeping him around for another year in a coaching/playing capacity ala Ed Curnow in 2022.
26. Haynes - RETIRE - thanks but no thanks.
31. Lemmey - DELIST - just isn't going to make it.
34. Monahan - DELIST - just isn't going to make it.
41. Duffy - DELIST - just isn't going to make it.
44. Evans - DELIST - thanks but no thanks.
That gives us roughly 12 list spots, notwithstanding any potential players we get as steak knives. We'd have roughly 3 firsts and 2 thirds to play with to give the list a refresh. I'd also be trading some of these picks into the 2026 draft so that we can get ahead of the Cody Walker points situation.
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As a player he was a great leader because he could lead by example..was a great player
I don’t think the same is true as a coach…being a good leader in a coaching mentoring role is different imo. Don’t forget he pretty much got sacked from Brissie and I don’t think he’s changed much since - I don’t think he’s got what it takes to be a good leader in a coaching role.
We are not trading both TDK & Harry that would be simply insane.
TDK is a priority within reason .
We are not trading TDK, clubs don’t offer crazy dollars to players they need to offer crazy trade terms on when he’s available as a free agent
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