Were West Coast really a 'state team' in the early 90s?

[Forward Press]

So you're telling me Fremantle didn't have exclusive access to WAFL players but West Coast did?

I'm telling you none did at the time of Ben Cousins being drafted. Big difference between exclusive access and the right to draft him. Ben Cousins could choose any of those three clubs under the father/son rules at the time, it wasn't Freo's choice to make.

 

[stax on the mull]

The more logical assumption is that VFL scouts were following the WAFL and Subiaco, but didn't think much of Heady and Kemp as they weren't on TV much (according to stax on the mull) and they would've both been 18-19 year old skinny rakes (Heady) or diminutive midfielders (Kemp) at the time, when the drafting tendency at the time was for more mature players.

That quote about "not on TV much" is not from me, but from West Coast recruitment, and it illustrates the general level of involvement that recruiters had in other states. Generally, those clubs that could afford it would travel over to WA to watch finals. Like it says there Subiaco finished 7th on the ladder in 1989.

That article is filtered through the lens of West Coast, posted on their own website, and patting themselves on the back, but there's a suggestion of what happened when it says Kemp was encouraged to take trips up North.

At least you get the official news, which continually seems to go over your collected heads, as far as stating that the Victorian clubs only had one pick from the WAFL when West Coast entered the draft in 1988, which I think breaks some new ground (being horses mouth so to speak) in your understanding.

 

[Forward Press]

That quote about "not on TV much" is not from me, but from West Coast recruitment, and it illustrates the general level of involvement that recruiters had in other states. Generally, those clubs that could afford it would travel over to WA to watch finals. Like it says there Subiaco finished 7th on the ladder in 1989.

That article is filtered through the lens of West Coast, posted on their own website, and patting themselves on the back, but there's a suggestion of what happened when it says Kemp was encouraged to take trips up North.

At least you get the official news, which continually seems to go over your collected heads, as far as stating that the Victorian clubs only had one pick from the WAFL when West Coast entered the draft in 1988, which I think breaks some new ground (being horses mouth so to speak) in your understanding.

I think it's well known the VFL recruiters didn't pay as much attention to the WAFL and WA in general.

So? Does this mean West Coast's concessions at the time were patently unfair because of the negligence or ignorance of others? Drafting is an inexact science even now, and back then it was amateur. You are holding West Coast culpable for having a stroke of luck, and then dishing it out when others think that you cannot hold West Coast accountable for it.

Re: Kemp, considering we spent pick 117 or whatever on him, would suggest even we didn't foresee how good he was. Wouldn't surprise me though if we tried to hide him away even if he was already playing in the WAFL at the time.

 

[Scotland]

This thread has become a bit of a parody.

Vic recruiters only look at players from good teams because they're on TV and that equates to West Coast 'hiding' Heady and Kemp.

Matchu, I didn't claim anything. I posted what is on the Father Son Wiki page. Everyone knows the AFL likes to make up rule changes year to year so if that's not accurate enough for you I suggest doing your own research. The rule wasn't always 100 games for existing clubs anyway. If a VFL club can sign a player whose father played 20 games it's not that big an advantage to sign a player whose father played 146 games in the WAFL.

I'd like to spin this thing around.

Retrospectively, what would "fair" concessions have been? Remember, you can't cherry pick.

 

[footyfan1978]

Find this thread pretty laughable from both extreme view points.
Sometimes I wonder how old some of posters are and if they even lived through the period of question.
Some clearly not and some I am sure do.
It interest me just as much for the season itself to think about 1987 in the league. Don't buy into either extreme views by some here.
I actually remember our first game versus Eagles. I remember we won by 87 points or something and Wayne Johnston might have bagged 7 goals on that day. For some reason I remember him having a big day against them.

Read a few times of West Coast had a smaller list at time on entry.
Should be remembered when West Coast and Brisbane started the reserves and under 19's still existed in the league and both draft and salary cap were still very much in infancy stages and being worked out.
Clubs generally had around 52 on list from memory as they all had a reserves team too which clubs do not have now. West Coast did not go with a reserves team probably because of start up costs to fly a seconds team around too. Hence 37 or whatever it was to account for a list to use for the one senior team.
With 20 players a team back then, 37 would have been about right so it would have been nothing about restricting Eagles in any way. More a case of limit the start up costs at time.
Should be noted now clubs go with a primary list of 38 and two nominated rookies during the season for a game that now has 22 a team and no official reserves league so for your senior team you expected to only need about 38, not 52 to field two teams like was the norm back in 1987 for all established clubs at time.

33 players were used in Eagles opening season from their list.
The most any club used was Collingwood with 45 players used in the season.
The least used was 30 by Hawthorn.
Brisbane won 6 games in their opening season.
Eagles won 11 games in their opening season.

Back then to be realistic chance of winning premiership you had to finish top three.
Bit similar to how most of us view it now of needing to be top four in 18 team league to be realistic chance. Ending up 4th or 5th then was like ending up 5th to 8th now. You had to win 4 knock out finals in a row to win the flag starting from the Elimination Final.

Most epic final round ever.
Four games start Sat 29-Aug-1987 2:10 pm
Three quarter time scores that day.

Carlton 15.8 (98) VFL Park
North Melbourne 13.6 (84)
Sticks kicks goal after siren to sew up top stop and week off

Fitzroy 18.11 (119) Princes Park
Sydney 16.14 (110)
Swans end up winning

Geelong 13.15 (93) Kardinia Park
Hawthorn 11.9 (75)
Hawks end up winning

Footscray 9.7 (61) Western Oval
Melbourne 8.7 (55)
Dees end up winning

1987 VFL Ladder
TEAM P W L D PF PA % PTS
1 Carlton (P) 22 18 4 0 2599 1883 138.02 72
2 Hawthorn 22 17 5 0 2781 1891 147.07 68
3 Sydney 22 15 7 0 2846 2197 129.54 60
4 North Melbourne 22 13 8 1 2402 2417 99.38 54
5 Melbourne 22 12 10 0 2189 2026 108.05 48
-------------------------------------------------------
6 Geelong 22 11 10 1 2355 2348 100.30 46
7 Footscray 22 11 10 1 1959 2046 95.75 46
8 West Coast 22 11 11 0 2386 2438 97.87 44
9 Essendon 22 9 12 1 2075 2318 89.52 38
10 St Kilda 22 9 13 0 2150 2369 90.76 36
11 Fitzroy 22 8 14 0 2328 2544 91.51 32
12 Collingwood 22 7 15 0 1853 2425 76.41 28
13 Brisbane Bears 22 6 16 0 2113 2666 79.26 24
14 Richmond 22 5 17 0 2199 2667 82.45 20
Key: P = Played, W = Won, L = Lost, D = Drawn, PF = Points for, PA = Points against

from wiki paste

• Melbourne ended the third longest finals drought in league history (twenty-two seasons) by finishing fifth, making the finals for the first time since 1964.
• The final round, Round 22, was one of the most dramatic and significant in VFL/AFL history. At the start of the round:
  • Carlton could secure top spot and a week's rest by winning
  • Hawthorn could finish on top if they beat Geelong and Carton lost to North
  • North could grab the double chance (third spot) from Sydney by beating Carlton if Sydney lost to Fitzroy
  • Any of Geelong, Footscray or Melbourne could finish fifth and make the finals.

As a warm-up for the round on the Friday night Richmond played the Brisbane Bears for the wooden spoon; the Bears won easily to ensure they didn't come last in their first season. The significant matches were all played on Saturday afternoon, and were all close. Geelong led by 35 points at one stage but were worn down by Hawthorn in the end, who won by 3 points; the Cats therefore missed the finals.
That meant the winner of Melbourne and Footscray would finish 5th. The Demons won by 15 points to make the finals for the first time since 1964.
Sydney beat Fitzroy by 8 points to ensure the double chance.
Carlton's new captain Stephen Kernahan kicked a goal after the siren against North to secure top spot. The week's rest may have made a difference to the eventual result of the Grand Final, which was played on a 33-degree day.

• The Under-19s Grand Final, in which North Melbourne 13.16 (94) defeated Richmond 13.11 (89), ended in controversy when the final siren was alleged to have been blown early. The timekeeper, who was independent of the clubs, was alleged to have blown the siren after only two minutes of time on; but there had been five goals kicked in the final quarter, which would usually have been expected to result in four or five minutes of time on. Richmond lodged a complaint against the timekeeper, but did not protest the result or seek a replay of the match

Leading goalkickers
Name Club Gms Gls/Bhds Acc% GpM
1 Tony Lockett St Kilda 22 117 / 52 69 5.32
2 Warwick Capper Sydney 23 103 / 57 64 4.48
3 Jason Dunstall Hawthorn 24 94 / 58 62 3.92
4 Stephen Kernahan Carlton 24 73 / 50 59 3.04
- Simon Beasley Footscray 21 73 / 47 61 3.48
Abbreviation guide: Gms=Games played in the season, Gls/Bhds=Goals and behinds kicked, Acc%=Accuracy percentage (Goals divided by Goals + Behinds multiplied by 100),GpM=Average goals per match

 

[Scotland]

If West Coast's smaller list size was to account for not fielding a team in the reserves then why was it allowed to expand to standard size when the reserves competition ran through until the late 1990s?

Victorian clubs used to have supplementary lists, also.

 

[footyfan1978]

If West Coast's smaller list size was to account for not fielding a team in the reserves then why was it allowed to expand to standard size when the reserves competition ran through until the late 1990s?

Victorian clubs used to have supplementary lists, also.

I got no idea mate about your idea of expansion as I believe it was more a case of standard size becoming different across the league in general as the league worked on there expansion from 12 to 14.
I simply recall that Eagles were not fielding a reserves side and the distinct connection with them starting with a list that fitted those needs in first year. Remember this was basically a rushed job and not as planned over time like Gold Coast and GWS entries. We must remember this was a massive time of change for the whole league so the list numbers did start to change for all clubs. I think the lists started to get below 50 for all clubs in this time. The league was in a massive state of flux as the whole game was in football states. What numbers they were for each year in the league and why exactly is hard to find on net as remember looking a couple of years ago for my own interest. From memory the under 19's was gone by early 1990's so list sizes for Victorian based clubs would have been reducing and reserves was gone a few years later or was called the Victorian State League at some stage rather than actual reserves. The league were making it up as they went along but I can assure you the main reason Eagles started out with a smaller list in their first year was certainly connected with only fielding one team.
Edit: I've since added a post below this that is best thing I can find on list numbers in this changing period of mid 80's to mid 90's.

 

[footyfan1978]

Found this document online and worth a read for those of us interested in the details of changes in league over last three decades in particular. It is not all of it but pasted here what I felt was of interest.

History of Player Recruitment, Transfer and Payment Rules in the Victorian and Australian Football League
Ross Booth Department of Economics, Faculty of Business and Economics Monash University

In 1984, the twelve VFL clubs (one being the Sydney Swans) appointed an independent Commission with the power to control, among other things, the player rules. Each of the clubs retained their metropolitan and country zones, but a team salary cap ( a maximum team wages bill) was introduced in 1984 in time for the 1985 season. The VFL Commissions ‘Establishing the Basis for Future Success’ report of 1985 recommended a draft system of recruiting as one of the key elements to achieving greater on-field evenness in the competition.

Metropolitan zoning within Victoria was maintained but senior and junior lists were introduced with each club being permitted only 50 players on each. Junior lists contained zoned players aged between 15.5 and 19 years.
The first national player draft was held at the end of the 1986 season in time for 1987, which coincided with the entry of Brisbane and West Coast. Victorian country zoning ended in 1986 (eighteen years after its introduction in 1968) with players going into the draft pool. Metropolitan zoning was maintained for the eleven Victorian-based clubs.

The national draft was modelled on the interstate player draft introduced at the end of 1981. In both the 1987 and 1988 seasons, each club, with the exception of the West Coast Eagles, was allowed to draft five players from Victorian country or interstate leagues. Positions on the draft were determined in terms of the reverse order of how teams finished on the VFL ladder in the previous year. The club which finished last had first choice, the premiers last choice, and the process repeated five times. Clubs were also able to trade draft choices for existing senior list players, and a club which drafted a player had a ‘hold’ on his services for three years.

West Coast has never had a reserves team and Brisbane fielded only a senior team in 1987 and 1988. A moratorium was placed on the recruitment of players from Western Australia and Queensland in both 1987 and 1988 to assist West Coast and Brisbane establish their player lists. The Eagles were allowed a senior training list of 35, the majority of whom were recruited from WAFL clubs, with a small number of VFL players who had been originally recruited from Western Australia. The Brisbane Bears were allowed a senior list of 40 most of whom were recruited from VFL clubs, plus a small number from South Australia and Tasmania.

From September 1988 Victorian-based clubs and the Sydney Swans were allocated zones from which they were entitled to recruit a limited number of local players, Brisbane Bears was allocated Queensland and West Coast Eagles could recruit from registered WAFL players.
In November 1988 all VFL clubs, including the West Coast Eagles, were entitled to participate in a national player draft of players from the Victorian country, the Australian Capital Territory, the Northern Territory, South Australia, Tasmania and from overseas. Each club was allowed to draft eight players, an increase from the five allowed in previous drafts. Each club, including the West Coast Eagles, was allowed to draft only one player from the WAFL.
Small transfer fees were paid to clubs whose players were drafted by VFL clubs, with the amount increasing with the number of senior games played in the VFL. This limit on transfer fees was intended to substantially reduce the costs of VFL clubs. The 1988 rules allowed clubs to trade draft choices for senior listed players (the exchange must have involved solely the players involved with both clubs), but clubs were not allowed to exchange draft choices for cash. Changing senior lists during the season was not permitted. A pre-season player draft was introduced in 1989 (in time for preseason 1990) for uncontracted senior list players, plus those players delisted from senior training lists. Each club was entitled to four choices. The only obligation was that the financial requirements specified by the players fit within the club’s salary cap and 1988 rules required such players to provide details concerning their financial requirements. For 1989, all clubs were allowed a senior list of 52, unless not fielding a reserves side in which case the senior list was limited to 40.

A non-compulsory mid-season draft for previously listed AFL players was introduced in 1990. The Adelaide Crows entered the competition in 1991 with special concessions giving them access to SANFL and uncontracted former SA players on AFL club lists. Victorian clubs were given their last chance to list metropolitan zone players with the announcement that metropolitan zoning would end, having been introduced in 1915. In 1992, Adelaide participated in the national draft with all states/territories involved for the first time.
Amendments to the AFL’s player rules were made during 1993, in time for the 1993 national draft and the 1994 season. The period players were to be bound to clubs was reduced from 36 months to 24 months. The AFL draft nomination form was introduced with the requirement that players must turn seventeen during the year of the draft and come from an approved competition. Special draft concessions were introduced to the three bottom teams (Sydney, Brisbane and Richmond) recognising their competitive difficulties over the previous four years. Sydney and Brisbane were also given priority selection for up to three New South Wales and Queensland players respectively. AFL clubs nominated lists of 52 with the exception of Sydney and Brisbane which had 60 players. The last mid-season draft was held in 1993.
For 1994, AFL lists were reduced to 42 players, except Sydney which was allowed 50. All AFL clubs were allowed supplementary list players (State League listed players). The State League list was introduced primarily to allow the eleven Victorian-based clubs to continue to operate their VSFL senior teams (commonly known as Reserves teams). A minimum salary operated in 1994 and 1995, comprising a season base of $7500 and a senior match payment of $750.72 In November 1995, the AFL and the AFLPA signed a collective bargaining agreement (CBA) for the period 1996 to 1998. The agreement set out a minimum season base payment and a minimum senior match payment for listed players of $15 000 and $1000 respectively in 1996, increasing to $20 000 and $1500 in 1997.
Fremantle participated in the AFL competition from 1995, with a player list of 50 in 1995, 46 in 1996 and 42 in 1997 (the same as for other AFL clubs in 1997 except Brisbane and Port Adelaide). Significant features of the player rules for the admission of Fremantle included: the ability to list a certain number of WAFL players and up to ten delisted AFL players prior to the 1994 national draft; a number of priority selections; and (prior to the 1995 pre-season draft) the ability to list (over a two-year period ) up to twelve listed, uncontracted AFL players. No AFL club was allowed to lose more than two players to Fremantle, and AFL clubs were entitled to financial compensation and the right to nominate another player.
In order to establish its player list for 1997, Port Adelaide was entitled to select up to four AFL listed but out-of-contract players prior to the 1996 national draft, any number of SANFL players (provided the maximum list size of 46 was not exceeded) and five priority choices in the 1996 national draft.
Sydney, having finished second in 1996, lost the concession of being able to include up to three NSW/ACT players as pre-draft selections on its list for 1997. However, Sydney was allowed to include two NSW/ ACT players on its list instead of one player from another state in Round 1 of the 1996 national draft if it so wished.

The merger of the Brisbane Bears FC and the Fitzroy FC meant that the Brisbane Lions did not participate in either the 1996 national draft or the 1997 pre-season draft. The Brisbane Lions were entitled to a list of 44 players, eight of whom had to be former Fitzroy players. The salary cap for the Brisbane Lions was extended (by diminishing amounts) for 1997, 1998 and 1999. With the increase in the draft age from seventeen to eighteen as at 1 January 1997, and 1996 being a transitional draft year, each club was entitled to list one seventeen-year-old player.

Some overall notes from the publication
The new features of the period from 1968 to 1984 include the addition of country zoning to complement metropolitan zoning, the transfer fee system and various schemes to control player payments. This period is one of continuing metropolitan zoning, but now also country zoning which was introduced for the 1968 season. In 1970, transfer fees, signing on fees and contracts were allowed for each club’s two permissible interstate recruits. At the end of 1971, transfer payments were allowed for exchanges of players between VFL clubs. The ten-year rule was invoked for a short period from late 1972 to early 1974 which allowed free agency for players who had given a decade of service. The VFL Players’ Association (VFLPA) is formed in 1973. Various player payment systems, more flexible than the Coulter Law, and mostly based on experience, were tried over the period which was generally one of significant increases in player payments, well above those prescribed. Player contracts became increasingly common and transfer fees were prevalent into the early 1980s. An interstate player draft was introduced in time for the 1982 season. Concern was raised over the validity of the VFL’s zoning, transfer and player payment rules, which culminated in the Foschini case in 1983. The watershed was 1985, the first season to be played under a team salary cap.

The AFL Commission was appointed in 1984 and the salary cap was introduced for the 1985 season. Zoning was phased out during this period with country zoning ending in 1986 and metropolitan zoning in 1991. The first national player draft was held in time for the 1987 season. Drafted players were ‘bound’ for three years, later reduced to two years. Player lists were also introduced at this time. Recruiting concessions are given to new clubs (Brisbane, West Coast, Adelaide, Fremantle and Port Adelaide) to help them form their player lists. In 1993, special draft concessions were given to the three bottom teams with competitive difficulties, Sydney, Brisbane and Richmond. A minimum wage was introduced in 1994. Special draft and salary cap conditions were to apply to the Brisbane Lions for seasons 1997-99 after the Brisbane-Fitzroy merger of 1996.

Since 1996 the VFA has competed as the VFL

 

[Matchu]

In November 1988 all VFL clubs, including the West Coast Eagles, were entitled to participate in a national player draft of players from the Victorian country, the Australian Capital Territory, the Northern Territory, South Australia, Tasmania and from overseas. Each club was allowed to draft eight players, an increase from the five allowed in previous drafts.

So this whole idea that West Coast could only draft WA players wasn't even true. They were permitted to sign any player in Australia outside of Vic metro and Queensland from 1988 onward after giving up their 'zone' of WA. However, they were still recruiting the best WAFL players (in their eyes) up until 1991 because of pre-draft selections they received. The best of both worlds.

By the time West Coast stopped receiving pre-draft selections for WAFL players, zoning was abolished (with the exception of Brisbane and Sydney in QLD and NSW).

For 1989, all clubs were allowed a senior list of 52, unless not fielding a reserves side in which case the senior list was limited to 40.

It's pretty conclusive from that sentence that West Coast's list size was initially smaller because they didn't have a reserves team. Makes more sense than the conspiracy theories Eagles supporters have come up with.

 

[eastfreo75]

Fremantle first year had total access to Claremont, Swans, East and South Fremantle plus only players 8 from the other WAFL Clubs.

 

[Kwality]

When the Eagles had 35 players on their list & the others had 53, is it beyond the pail to suggest the best had been taken? Surely all picks taken were the best available at the time, not the best performed in retrospect.

When the Eagles were allowed to have the same number as the others, ie those who had already chosen, how does those chosen by the Eagles constitute priority ? You mean best of the rest?

The expansion was poorly handled as everyone can see, and it continues to be to this day.

The AFL making up the rules as they go along, e.g today: zones for Vic clubs, WA & SA still in limbo.

 

[Kwality]

So this whole idea that West Coast could only draft WA players wasn't even true. They were permitted to sign any player in Australia outside of Vic metro and Queensland from 1988 onward after giving up their 'zone' of WA. However, they were still recruiting the best WAFL players (in their eyes) up until 1991 because of pre-draft selections they received. The best of both worlds.

By the time West Coast stopped receiving pre-draft selections for WAFL players, zoning was abolished (with the exception of Brisbane and Sydney in QLD and NSW).

It's pretty conclusive from that sentence that West Coast's list size was initially smaller because they didn't have a reserves team. Makes more sense than the conspiracy theories Eagles supporters have come up with.

You seem to be saying Vic clubs had zones & the Eagles had pre draft selections - did one offset the other in the VFL eyes? How were the Bears treated?

The reserves team argument for more players in Vic was run constantly - when were the Vic club list numbers cut back?

 

[Scotland]

A list of 52 is not enough to field a seniors, reserves and U/19s side even without accounting for injuries and suspensions, so I'm not convinced on total Victorian list sizes. Supp lists were still in play until I think the early 2000s also so an injury crisis couldn't really cripple a Victorian side. If we'd had a big run of injuries with a list of 37 without reserves or U/19s then what? Clubs now have 40 + rookies/veterans or whatever it is and it's not uncommon to see teams only have 25 or so to pick from. Classic VFL/AFL make it up as you go along.

Someone like Shane Warne for example. He played U/19s and reserves for St Kilda. I doubt he was considered a listed St Kilda player.

So this whole idea that West Coast could only draft WA players wasn't even true. They were permitted to sign any player in Australia outside of Vic metro and Queensland from 1988 onward after giving up their 'zone' of WA. However, they were still recruiting the best WAFL players (in their eyes) up until 1991 because of pre-draft selections they received. The best of both worlds.

Who is arguing that West Coast couldn't draft players outside WA from 1988 onwards? The restrictions were for 1986 and 1987. Which is what irks West Coast fans when people say we were gifted a state team from day one... see post 3, again.

It's pretty conclusive from that sentence that West Coast's list size was initially smaller because they didn't have a reserves team. Makes more sense than the conspiracy theories Eagles supporters have come up with.

It's a factor, but you know that the only reason you have a reserves side is to provide depth to your senior side, no? Footy in the 80s was a 20 a side game, so if you have any more than 20 fit players available then the ones who don't get picked have to play somewhere or they'll never be match fit.

The main reason we didn't have a reserves side was the cost and logistics. The 10 or so players each week who didn't make our side stayed in WA and played for their WAFL clubs which was better for WA footy than them plus another 10 being totally removed from that competition. With a list of 40 or 45 or 200 all it would have meant is more players running around in the WAFL that we could call up to the VFL if needed. Alternatively we could've fielded a reserves side in the WAFL but that would not have been supported by the 8 WAFL clubs. Brisbane chose to later field a reserves team presumably because the standard of the local league in Brisbane was a long way short of the VFL.

 

[Matchu]

A list of 52 is not enough to field a seniors, reserves and U/19s side even without accounting for injuries and suspensions, so I'm not convinced on total Victorian list sizes. Supp lists were still in play until I think the early 2000s also so an injury crisis couldn't really cripple a Victorian side. If we'd had a big run of injuries with a list of 37 without reserves or U/19s then what? Clubs now have 40 + rookies/veterans or whatever it is and it's not uncommon to see teams only have 25 or so to pick from. Classic VFL/AFL make it up as you go along.

Someone like Shane Warne for example. He played U/19s and reserves for St Kilda. I doubt he was considered a listed St Kilda player.



Who is arguing that West Coast couldn't draft players outside WA from 1988 onwards? The restrictions were for 1986 and 1987. Which is what irks West Coast fans when people say we were gifted a state team from day one... see post 3, again.



It's a factor, but you know that the only reason you have a reserves side is to provide depth to your senior side, no? Footy in the 80s was a 20 a side game, so if you have any more than 20 fit players available then the ones who don't get picked have to play somewhere or they'll never be match fit.

The main reason we didn't have a reserves side was the cost and logistics. The 10 or so players each week who didn't make our side stayed in WA and played for their WAFL clubs which was better for WA footy than them plus another 10 being totally removed from that competition. With a list of 40 or 45 or 200 all it would have meant is more players running around in the WAFL that we could call up to the VFL if needed. Alternatively we could've fielded a reserves side in the WAFL but that would not have been supported by the 8 WAFL clubs. Brisbane chose to later field a reserves team presumably because the standard of the local league in Brisbane was a long way short of the VFL.

So the takeaway is that the VFL had West Coast on a reduced list due to the Eagles not fielding a reserves team in any competition. Then a few years later the VFL realised a reduced list was actually acting as a disadvantage for the Eagles and fixed the problem. It has already been proven in this thread that West Coast didn't even come close to using all 35 players in 1987 so it probably wasn't as big a disadvantage as some are making it out to be.

I'm also interested to find out who these 17 WAFL players are that the Eagles missed out on because of the final 'raid' but no one seems to be able to tell me. These are the 1986 WAFL players I've found that switched to other VFL clubs in 1987:

Mark Bairstow - Geelong (146 games with Cats)
Michael Christian - Collingwood (131 games with Magpies)
Warren Dean - Melbourne (32 games with Demons)
Paul Harding - Hawthorn (116 games with Hawks, Saints and Eagles)
Wayne Henwood - Sydney (79 games with Swans and Demons)
Michael Mitchell - Richmond (81 games with Tigers)
Peter Sartori - Carlton (77 games with Blues and Fitzroy)
Earl Spalding - Melbourne (211 with Demons and Blues)
Craig Starcevich - Collingwood (144 games with Magpies and Bears)
Peter Wilson - Richmond (171 games with Tigers and Eagles)
Nicky Winmar - St Kilda (251 games with Saints and Bulldogs)

So it's obvious West Coast missed out on some talented players because of the 'raid'. Having said that, I think it was said that West Coast actually had the chance to recruit Winmar but chose to overlook him so that doesn't really count as being a part of the 'raid' because the Eagles could have recruited him. I don't know how many other players from the ones I listed above fall under that category.

 

[Stucky]

Not really sure if they were a state team in the early 90's. One thing l do know though is that they were juiced to the max.

 

[Scotland]

So the takeaway is that the VFL had West Coast on a reduced list due to the Eagles not fielding a reserves team in any competition. Then a few years later the VFL realised a reduced list was actually acting as a disadvantage for the Eagles and fixed the problem. It has already been proven in this thread that West Coast didn't even come close to using all 35 players in 1987 so it probably wasn't as big a disadvantage as some are making it out to be.

A reduced list isn't a disadvantage? Righto. We used 33 players in 1987. And 1988. We used 38 in 1989. If you want to fast forward in time to 2000 we used 40. That'd be difficult to do with a list of 37. Hawthorn used 33 players in 2015, should we cut their list size down going forward?

I'm also interested to find out who these 17 WAFL players are that the Eagles missed out on because of the final 'raid' but no one seems to be able to tell me. These are the 1986 WAFL players I've found that switched to other VFL clubs in 1987:

Mark Bairstow - Geelong (146 games with Cats)
Michael Christian - Collingwood (131 games with Magpies)
Warren Dean - Melbourne (32 games with Demons)
Paul Harding - Hawthorn (116 games with Hawks, Saints and Eagles)
Wayne Henwood - Sydney (79 games with Swans and Demons)
Michael Mitchell - Richmond (81 games with Tigers)
Peter Sartori - Carlton (77 games with Blues and Fitzroy)
Earl Spalding - Melbourne (211 with Demons and Blues)
Craig Starcevich - Collingwood (144 games with Magpies and Bears)
Peter Wilson - Richmond (171 games with Tigers and Eagles)
Nicky Winmar - St Kilda (251 games with Saints and Bulldogs)

As per Eagle87's post again the 'raided players' were: Wilson, Sartori, Dennis, Winmar, Bairstow, Mitchell, Spalding, Christian, Starcevich and Dean which you have covered already.

So it's obvious West Coast missed out on some talented players because of the 'raid'. Having said that, I think it was said that West Coast actually had the chance to recruit Winmar but chose to overlook him so that doesn't really count as being a part of the 'raid' because the Eagles could have recruited him. I don't know how many other players from the ones I listed above fall under that category.

You'd have to ask Nicky Winmar but I doubt we would have overlooked him. I don't know what makes him special compared to the others.

The bolded is why this whole 'state team' argument is tiresome. There is enough evidence of players not available to West Coast t debunk the state team myth for good. But people will continue to bring it up each year.

'Were West Coast's list concessions too generous?' is what people really mean to ask. Arguably they were, but they need to be understood in the context of an era where clubs didn't value the draft and didn't go for kids (VFL clubs had U/19s so why fill your list with kids?) and that preferential access to a competition that has just had 47 players taken from it isn't as big a leg up as you'd think.

 

[Scotland]

Not really sure if they were a state team in the early 90's. One thing l do know though is that they were juiced to the max.

How are Dank and The Weapon going?

 

[Matchu]

The bolded is why this whole 'state team' argument is tiresome. There is enough evidence of players not available to West Coast t debunk the state team myth for good. But people will continue to bring it up each year.

'Were West Coast's list concessions too generous?' is what people really mean to ask. Arguably they were, but they need to be understood in the context of an era where clubs didn't value the draft and didn't go for kids (VFL clubs had U/19s so why fill your list with kids?) and that preferential access to a competition that has just had 47 players taken from it isn't as big a leg up as you'd think.

We've been through this. West Coast weren't a 'state team' in 1987 and a lot of that had to do with the best WA players in the league not playing for the Eagles at the time. That was partially to do with the 'raid' and partially to do with WA players already competing in the VFL before West Coast were introduced. By the early 90s you could argue that the majority of the best WA players in the league were playing for the Eagles and that's where the idea of the 'state team' comes from. Look at the thread title again.

The reason they went from a non-state team in 1987 to a state team in the early 90s (in some people's eyes) had to do with concessions that allowed them to recruit the best WAFL players each year before anyone else. They make their first AFL grand final in 1991 with 14 WA state reps which I'm certain was considerably higher than any other team in the league when it came to state reps.

It's not West Coast's fault that the VFL/AFL gave them what seems like very generous concessions (retrospectively) and they took full advantage by creating what was probably the best combined list of WA players in history. It's just funny that Eagles supporters almost resent the idea that they had most of WA's best talent on their list in the early 90s.

 

[Scotland]

We resent the idea that we were gift-wrapped success from day one.

1992 premiership side (debut age):

1986 WAFL selections: Mainwaring (21), Lamb (25), Brennan (21), Lewis (18), Worsfold (18)
1986 uncontracted VFL players: 0
1987 WAFL selections: McKenna (18), Waterman (19), Langdon (20)
1988 pre-draft WAFL: Pyke (20), Sumich (21), Turley (23)
1988 draft: 0
1989 pre-draft WAFL: 0
1989 draft: Matera (20), Heady (20), Evans (21), Kemp (21)
1990 pre-draft WAFL: Jakovich (18), White (18)
1990 draft: 0
Trades: Harding, Wilson
F/S: McIntosh (18)

8 players taken from the WAFL in 1986/87
5 players taken with pre-draft selections from the WAFL
4 players drafted in the national draft
1 F/S selection
2 traded players

 

[Forward Press]

It's not West Coast's fault that the VFL/AFL gave them what seems like very generous concessions (retrospectively) and they took full advantage by creating what was probably the best combined list of WA players in history. It's just funny that Eagles supporters almost resent the idea that they had most of WA's best talent on their list in the early 90s.

Not West Coast's fault, as you acknowledged. It's just that some take offence to the term 'state team' as it implies the Eagles didn't deserve the success of 92/94 and that it was gained through an unfair advantage through being gifted a State of Origin quality side. The rules were not designed to make the Eagles a state team and they were rather handicapped upon entry, however with the handicaps the Eagles had stumbled upon the best way to build a juggernaut - recruit a lot of quality kids and develop them to their potential.

 

[Kwality]

Remember each WAFL team contributed a max of 7 players & they set out to pick a squad to be competitive in 1987, not 1990.

As a Subi supporter & Warren Dean a Subi premiership player in 1986 I seem to remember he had an offer from Melbourne & took it whereas Dwayne Lamb was courted (signed?) by the Swans but preferred to remain at home. Lamb was there in game #1 & in the 1992 premiership team, career over in 1993. Dean suffered a knee injury at Melbourne (the same injury that cut short the career of his father at Subi) & returned to the Eagles in 1990 but wasn't ever to get a game.


In storage somewhere I have a book on the Eagles 1st ten (10) years that covers this period very well, not sure if it is contained in the updated 25 year book.

 

[Scotland]

Do you mean Soaring?

 

[Kwality]

Do you mean Soaring?

Probably - talks about the players that the VFL clubs had 1st go at, like Deano & Lamb - who went East, who didn't.

In that era the likes of Graham Moss went to Vic for a couple of seasons & came home, wasn't just the stars, there was no shortage of offers, some went & others, notably Stephen Michael, didn't.

 

[Scotland]

Stephen Michael was retired by the time we came in.

Might be another book, Soaring is a 10 year history of WC.

 

[Stucky]

How are Dank and The Weapon going?

Whats Dank got to do with Geelong? He was never employed by the Cats.