Were West Coast really a 'state team' in the early 90s?

[Kram]

rofl if we were a state team we'd have 4peated.

Malthouse just really underachieved with a state list.

 

[jatz14]

Literally every player you've listed above entered the league before the Eagles were allowed in (Buckenara - 1982, Beasley - 1982, Dorotich - 1986, Hunter - 1981, Krakouers - 1982, Taylor - 1981). The Eagles did however sign VFL players at the end of 1986 which included Glendinning, Malaxos, Miles, Narkle, Turner and Wiley. On top of that, despite the rules clearly stating West Coast could only sign off contract VFL players that had a WAFL background, the Eagles attempted to sign contracted players in Buckenara and Harding from Hawthorn and had to go all the way to the Victorian Supreme Court to discover they weren't allowed to do that. Harding later joined the Eagles when he was out of contract years later.

Anyone that claims West Coast missed out because they weren't able to sign certain players that were already playing in the VFL is just being ridiculous. If you look through the numerous pages in this thread you'll find the general consensus was that West Coast really only missed out on one significant player in Mark Bairstow (signed 5 days before West Coast were granted their licence) but received extremely generous concessions in every other avenue. If you're wondering what those concessions were then just read back through the thread. Even West Coast fans admitted that were generous in this thread.

Now go back, re-read the thread title (Was West Coast really a 'state team' in the early 90s?), and ask yourself whether 14 of the 22 players lining up for WA in the 1991 State of Origin match against Victoria warranted the fair label of a 'state team'. If your answer is no then we can go back and find out how many state reps each other team had at the time and I think you'll be unpleasantly surprised to learn that the Weagles had considerably more state reps in the early 90s than any other AFL team.

The flaw in your argument is that Eagles players were state players because they were Eagles, not Eagles because they were guaranteed state quality. Very few if any WAFL players were going to make the state team in 1991. Minus the top WA players playing over East, the bulk of the state side was going to come from the Eagles. If the Eagles had selected different players, and had been struggling in the bottom half of the table, they would still have a large number of players in the state team.

People just look at the 2 things and equate them. Large number of players in the state team, strong in the AFL = a state squad. However the equation Large numbers in the state team, and doing poorly in the comp was an equally plausible outcome, and I doubt their would have been many complaints then.

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[JackOutback]

Literally every player you've listed above entered the league before the Eagles were allowed in (Buckenara - 1982, Beasley - 1982, Dorotich - 1986, Hunter - 1981, Krakouers - 1982, Taylor - 1981). The Eagles did however sign VFL players at the end of 1986 which included Glendinning, Malaxos, Miles, Narkle, Turner and Wiley. On top of that, despite the rules clearly stating West Coast could only sign off contract VFL players that had a WAFL background, the Eagles attempted to sign contracted players in Buckenara and Harding from Hawthorn and had to go all the way to the Victorian Supreme Court to discover they weren't allowed to do that. Harding later joined the Eagles when he was out of contract years later.

Anyone that claims West Coast missed out because they weren't able to sign certain players that were already playing in the VFL is just being ridiculous. If you look through the numerous pages in this thread you'll find the general consensus was that West Coast really only missed out on one significant player in Mark Bairstow (signed 5 days before West Coast were granted their licence) but received extremely generous concessions in every other avenue. If you're wondering what those concessions were then just read back through the thread. Even West Coast fans admitted that were generous in this thread.

Now go back, re-read the thread title (Was West Coast really a 'state team' in the early 90s?), and ask yourself whether 14 of the 22 players lining up for WA in the 1991 State of Origin match against Victoria warranted the fair label of a 'state team'. If your answer is no then we can go back and find out how many state reps each other team had at the time and I think you'll be unpleasantly surprised to learn that the Weagles had considerably more state reps in the early 90s than any other AFL team.

Given that 14 is less than 22, I am going to surmise it was not a state team.

 

[Matchu]

Note that the initial squad was only 35 and the concessions over the following years was to get to parity with the other clubs. The club was fortunate that the under 18 team in 1987 was very strong. They also nailed a lot of selections in a period when talent identification was not like it is now.

Wrong. Once again, this has been addressed in this thread but I'll save you some time. The Eagles were given an initial list size of 35 because they didn't have a reserves team, unlike every other VFL club at the time. It was never intended to hurt West Coast, it was just what they thought made logical sense at the time. This was fixed in 1988 and the Eagles were given a standard VFL list size so you're making it out to be a bigger issue than it really was. It was also in 1988 that they lost their exclusive access to every player coming out of the WAFL and instead entered the national draft for the first time, which meant they could then start recruiting players outside the WAFL. However, they were still given pre-draft selections to the best WAFL players for 4 more years so they continued to recruit the best talent coming out of the WAFL every year while also being able to draft others players from all around the country, excluding Queenslanders.

The WA U18 team was actually victorious in 1985 so everyone knew the talent was coming through out west and it was well before West Coast were granted entry. Let's not pretend it was accidental. It was pure arrogance from the Victorians thinking their suburban clubs were good enough to beat a team of even the best players WA could produce.

The flaw in your argument is that Eagles players were state players because they were Eagles, not Eagles because they were guaranteed state quality. Very few if any WAFL players were going to make the state team in 1991. Minus the top WA players playing over East, the bulk of the state side was going to come from the Eagles. If the Eagles had selected different players, and had been struggling in the bottom half of the table, they would still have a large number of players in the state team.

People just look at the 2 things and equate them. Large number of players in the state team, strong in the AFL = a state squad. However the equation Large numbers in the state team, and doing poorly in the comp was an equally plausible outcome, and I doubt their would have been many complaints then.

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When you have exclusive access to the best players from your state for six years it's not surprising that the majority of the state team ends up coming from your team. The Eagles lost their WAFL access in 1991 and surprise, surprise by the mid-90s the number of state reps in their side decreased dramatically. It's not a coincidence - the concessions they were given made it a virtual certainty.

Given that 14 is less than 22, I am going to surmise it was not a state team.

Nice input. If we're judging this mathematically, 62% of the 1991 WA state team played for the Eagles. Care to find out the amount of state reps other teams had back then? Your opponents in the '91 Grand Final had 4 Victorian reps in Anderson, Collins, Langford and Jencke. Then they had Platten playing for SA, Pritchard and Hudson playing for TAS and Lawrence playing for QLD. That's 8 state reps and only 5 were from the big 3 states.

Hawthorn were the premiers that year and they had 8 state reps vs. West Coast 14 state reps!

 

[jatz14]

[QUOTE="When you have exclusive access to the best players from your state for six years it's not surprising that the majority of the state team ends up coming from your team. The Eagles lost their WAFL access in 1991 and surprise, surprise by the mid-90s the number of state reps in their side decreased dramatically. It's not a coincidence - the concessions they were given made it a virtual certainty.[/QUOTE]

If Mainwaring doesn't get picked by the Eagles, he doesn't play state. Same goes for a lot of them. Their selection by the Eagles is why they ended up in the state team, if they didn't get picked up, they wouldn't have been state players. Saying the Eagles were a state team was a self fulfilling prophesy, its true, but its irrelevant. They did not assemble a state team, and then have the Eagles pick the eyes out of it.

 

[Kram]

I know they were forced to play a home semi (or 2?) away from home but does anyone else think it's very ordinary that with the gun team Malthouse had in the 94 flag he couldn't even get the Eagles to another Prelim?

 

[Farang83150]

^^The DH above gets around the board acusing people of trolling yet he's in this doing just...again.

 

[JackOutback]

^^The DH above gets around the board acusing people of trolling yet he's in this doing just...again.

Eh, he has a point. Given the quality of the team, another premiership would have been achievable, so not making at least one prelim in 93 or 95 is a bit of an underachievement, even 96, though I believe that was the year we were forced to travel to Melbourne after winning week one, so that's a factor.

 

[Matchu]

If Mainwaring doesn't get picked by the Eagles, he doesn't play state. Same goes for a lot of them. Their selection by the Eagles is why they ended up in the state team, if they didn't get picked up, they wouldn't have been state players. Saying the Eagles were a state team was a self fulfilling prophesy, its true, but its irrelevant. They did not assemble a state team, and then have the Eagles pick the eyes out of it.

How can you say that? You don't know what would have happened if Mainwaring wasn't signed by West Coast in 1986. Look at Bairstow as an example - gets picked up by Geelong at 23 years old and goes on to have a great career with a Victorian team that included numerous state games.

The numbers tell you everything you need to know in regards to West Coast being considered a 'state team' in the early 90s. Also, that '91 WA state team with 14 Eagles didn't include guys Worsfold, Lewis or Wilson so that number could/should have been even higher considering those guys would be virtual instant state inclusions under normal circumstances.

 

[Freomaniac]

Cuts both ways to be honest... In a way they were because all of the 35 Guys in that 1987 squad came from WA. On the other hand you can say no because if you look at the WA state of Origin sides there were guys like Winmar, Bairstow and Buckenera that played in the WA state of origin team but not west coast.

And to think at one point, Luke Toia played in the WA State side as a Freo docker.

As for the Crows, Similar to West Coast, yeah you could say they had a state side but Kernahan, Bradley, Platten all played for the SA state team but not for the crows.

 

[footyfan1978]

No states sides. Just a heavy flavour of local talent to start up with. However Eagles youngsters from WA that were mostly teenagers or just turning 20 when they started up were the core of their premiership teams in early to mid 90's. it was closest they got to a state team. Probably half of one around 1994 with Mainwairing, Jakovich, Worsfold, McKenna, Sumich, Heady, Kemp and Matera would be part of any best WA state side around then. Still my club tore them a part at the game I went to at Princes Park before we threw our season away a month later, wasting a golden chance and giving Eagles free air against someone like Geelong that not up to it in grand finals. We incredibly dropped our final against Geelong with no Bairstow, Couch or Hocking. Still not over the golden chance we flushed down the toilet.

 

[Silent Alarm]

They were. The first WA national league team was always going to be. Get over it.

 

[Freomaniac]

No states sides. Just a heavy flavour of local talent to start up with. However Eagles youngsters from WA that were mostly teenagers or just turning 20 when they started up were the core of their premiership teams in early to mid 90's. it was closest they got to a state team. Probably half of one around 1994 with Mainwairing, Jakovich, Worsfold, McKenna, Sumich, Heady, Kemp and Matera would be part of any best WA state side around then. Still my club tore them a part at the game I went to at Princes Park before we threw our season away a month later, wasting a golden chance and giving Eagles free air against someone like Geelong that not up to it in grand finals. We incredibly dropped our final against Geelong with no Bairstow, Couch or Hocking. Still not over the golden chance we flushed down the toilet.

you referring to the 1994 season when carlton finished 2nd and got out in straight sets? Carlton finally got that elusive flag in 1995.

Still... That 1994 season was still an open year. Any side of Carlton, West coast, Geelong and North could of won it if everything went to either teams way.

 

[Freomaniac]

Because it really shits me to tears when people stated 1992 and 1994 didn't count because West Coast were gifted a State side when the facts prove it utterly wrong.

Dwayne Lamb, what a superstar.

And Mark Zanotti.... And John Gastev.... and Wally Matera...

 

[JohnHinckleyJr]

As much of a state team as the calves

 

[Jukesy85]

This west coast damage control ITT though ahahaha

 

[footyfan1978]

you referring to the 1994 season when carlton finished 2nd and got out in straight sets? Carlton finally got that elusive flag in 1995.

Still... That 1994 season was still an open year. Any side of Carlton, West coast, Geelong and North could of won it if everything went to either teams way.

Was a pretty open yes, but with a few rounds to go after we took care of Eagles in a high quality encounter I knew we had every other team covered, if we wanted it bad enough. Then we just went missing, for no real reason. There was a couple of injuries to maybe Silvagni and Bradley but nothing that should have seen us drop two finals in a row. Made no sense but it happened.

As you said, we won the flag the next season but does not take away we blew 1994 season before it. We had the 1994 flag in the palm of our hand with a round or so to go and we just pissed it all down the drain. Eagles were next best team and benefited with the first year of final 8 where other teams can knock out an opponent you concerned about if on other side of finals draw.

 

[OneEyedHawk]

Probably more to do with their "fitness program" at the time.

 

[Kram]

Yep Matt Barber juiced them up.

 

[arfadunger]

Probably more to do with their "fitness program" at the time.

Yep Matt Barber juiced them up.

Haha, very good. This never gets old.

 

[Dazb86]

Didn't people used.to think the Eagles sides of the 90's were juiced up on steroids?

 

[Freomaniac]

Didn't people used.to think the Eagles sides of the 90's were juiced up on steroids?

I guessed you watched open mike then?

I remember the David Rhys Jones interview on open mike. He said that 2 teams were allegedly taking steroids in the early 1990s. One was West Coast, the other of all the Victorian teams...Was Fitzroy. Eagles players we pretty built in that early 1990s period.

Rhys Jones side of the story was that west coast came into the Comp and Did well quickly.

On the other hand....When Glen Jackovich got on open mike, Mike Sheahan asked him about it. Jackos response was that West coast players hit the weights 2-3 times a week while other teams hit the weights 1 time a week.

Again... that's just peoples sides of the story.

 

[OneEyedHawk]

I guessed you watched open mike then?

I remember the David Rhys Jones interview on open mike. He said that 2 teams were allegedly taking steroids in the early 1990s. One was West Coast, the other of all the Victorian teams...Was Fitzroy. Eagles players we pretty built in that early 1990s period.

Rhys Jones side of the story was that west coast came into the Comp and Did well quickly.

On the other hand....When Glen Jackovich got on open mike, Mike Sheahan asked him about it. Jackos response was that West coast players hit the weights 2-3 times a week while other teams hit the weights 1 time a week.

Again... that's just peoples sides of the story.

My post, about their "fitness program" was at least partially tongue-in-cheek...but **** me, they had some massive units.

 

[Freomaniac]

My post, about their "fitness program" was at least partially tongue-in-cheek...but **** me, they had some massive units.

To be honest I always questioned Glen Jackovich. He debuted in 1991 as an 18 year old and even then he was built like a massive tank.

Again... some did develop quickly over a 2-4 year period But Jackovich stood out to me for some reason. Smaller guy like Peter Matera, Dean Laidley, Scott Watters, Tony Evans and Chris Lewis didn't look like they were taking steroids. But this is just me watching them on TV.

 

[footyfan1978]

To be honest I always questioned Glen Jackovich. He debuted in 1991 as an 18 year old and even then he was built like a massive tank.

Again... some did develop quickly over a 2-4 year period But Jackovich stood out to me for some reason. Smaller guy like Peter Matera, Dean Laidley, Scott Watters, Tony Evans and Chris Lewis didn't look like they were taking steroids. But this is just me watching them on TV.

His brother Allen was pretty big too. Just the way the brothers were built. I tend to believe what Jakovich said, just had a heavy weight program more than most others clubs at the time. I think the other clubs rumours were about was Fitzroy. Same thing, just had a weights program others did not take seriously. Micky Conlan, Doug Barwick, Richard Osborne, Alistair Lynch, Gary Pert and Paul Roos were big units early on. Have a feeling Micky Conlan talked about this stuff on Open Mike.