Whateley's wrap

[Lavender Bushranger]

In no way do i dispute that i am irrational, illogical and petty, but when you back a winner who gives

Gosford race 7 pinball lass, my tip for the week and has been injected with TB4 left over

In all seriousness though, that is a good tip.

In more seriousness though, i was pretty sure Hird and the players were unfairly smeared and i could not lose.

Strangely though, you and others muddled 'Hird and the players have been unfairly smeared' with 'I hate ASADA and anyone else who thinks it's really important to find out what was in the brown vial'.

Reality was, and still is, that there were actually about 5 different sides. Unfortunately for you though, in my opinion you lowered yourself to the mob and firmly jumped into a popular camp where things were only black or white.

The only decent 'side' were the ones wanting to know 'what were the players injected with?'.

You clearly weren't on that side. So you're no ifferent to most on here.

 

[blackcat]

did I hear that the burden "comfortable satisfaction" was between civil burden balance of probabilities and the criminal burden?

the way they interpreted "comfortable satisfaction" was pretty lax and uncomfortable. Why dont they just lump ASADA with the criminal burden. If anyone knows cycling, and how the d'affaire Landis went down, they will know that even with positive tests and well funded defense, the urine tests can quickly be undermined too, its a slippery slope.

the players indeed had agency, in this country, they had agency, the players as pro sports automatons, are not supposed to invoke this agency, or, they are, but they are to adopt professional sportsperson agency, and take everything and anything to make them better players on the field.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

So what we apparently have here is Charter ordering some stuff from China without knowing what it was, giving it to Alavi and he compounded it without knowing what the stuff was. Alavi gives it to Dank who reckons he knows what it was but he's not telling anyone. Essendon players then allowed themselves to be injected with stuff without knowing what it was. of course it only follows that no one at the club knew what the stuff was.
Pretty clear who the morons are.

Nah man, it's cool.

Crameri's mum googled it.

 

[matwt73]

There is no reasonable way these ridiculous cases could have been proven even at that level, nor should they even have been prosecuted. That's a question for the thoroughly moronic and incompetent Mr McDevitt.

Don't necessarily agree with this statement.

I think there was a prima facie case based on the circumstantial evidence, and it was appropriate to test the evidence.

Ultimately the evidence was insufficient.

The question is perhaps, why it took two years to get it to this stage, and what if any benefit there was in stage managing a media event, at the wrong end of the investigation. This matter would have been much better addressed with a whole lot less media input and a whole lot less hyperbole, from all sides.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Its lonely being a dictator

so ronery

 

[Don Won]

Especially when sworn statements from the Chinese supplier are not believed , and it looks like a 'beyond all reasonable doubt' standard has been applied. Without testing of the substance, the tribunal seemed to be 'comfortably satisfied beyond all reasonable doubt' that the chinese supplier is selling glucose or some other inert substance without realising it. Or they're alleging the chinese supplier committed fraud (without any proof, of course).

Apparently there were some issues with the ingredients list on the product

 

[oldgriffin]

I've got admit, my understanding of 'comfortable satisfaction' was way off the mark.

I'm still struggling to understand how anyone would need a drug to be actually tested before being comfortably satisfied that it is what the people who made it, bought it, and compounded it said it was??

Seems strange to me. And clearly shows I'm out of my depth on how this shit all works.

I was astonished to read in this article from The Age that it appears the batch was tested;


" evidence was presented and dissected about the molecular weight of the Alavi batch. ASADA had gained evidence from the Bio21 Institute at Melbourne University, which had measured the molecular weight of the relevant batch via a mass spectrometer. Two of Alavi's staff had delivered the batch to Bio21, before it was sent to Dank.

Bio21, too, wouldn't testify, but ASADA gained the results. ASADA sought expert evidence from Handelsman, who said the finding matched the parameters of the molecular weight of TB-4 - it was in the vicinity - and he added that it could not be the legal thymosin alpha or thymomodulin."


The chances of another legal substance being this close in molecular weight to TB4 would be very high. If it wasn't TB4 it would be prohibited under S0 as an experimental unknown substance.

For some reason the tribunal seems to have given this evidence no weighting at all ?

 

[blackcat]

I guess one has to ask what the people who supervised the Lance Armstrong regime are doing now? Are they still involved in the sport, are they in charge of another cycling team?

his doctor/preparatore is still involved with cyclists, but either using intermediary, or prepaid phones (both). Bruyneel is the only one kicked out of the sport.

He team, RadioShack, was owned by his management, Knaggs and Stapleton, they owned it. I think RadioShack went chapter11 (administration) in the States.

I don't think anyone else went down for the conspiracy. Oh, at the UCI, Verbruggen had moved onto the board of the IOC and was touted as a future Chair. But he resigned a few years back, so no Juan Antonio Samaranch for him. McQuaid, the last UCI President, was voted out of the comfy position in Aigle. So he lost that spot, virtue of a vote.

basically, most skated, cos a truckload of former teammates (some who now ride at Garmin) went supergrass and crowns witness, and the ones currently riding, if they admitted to something that was withing the statute of limitations (8 years is WADA) got 6 months or less ban, taken in the offseason, by doing the supergrass and crown witness. but anonymous. how do we know then? these things leak.

Leipheimer got a ban, but I think he had retired, or may have been one year left. I think Hincapie may have admitted to things before the statute of limitations, but he also retired, he just lost a very little skin of his nose. Ogrady was not involved in d'affaire Armstrong, but he would have broken the record if he could have ridden in 2014 Tour.

Note, the info that Ogrady was on the 99 or 98 list, of testing old samples, was gonna come out. And they knew. Ironically, Greenedge would not have won the Team Timetrial at the Tour de France in 2013, if Ogrady knew he was NOT on the list. Because he knew the Damoclesian sword hung over his head, he rode for his life during the TTT, and pushed the team to win the stage. A very presigious stage. If he was comfortable, and knew he was going to break the Tour riding record the next year (about 18 tours, I think Hincapie has the record, I am not sure if OGrady is one behind, or matching it, or would have broken the previous record and George Hincapie matching him).

 

[blackcat]

I've got admit, my understanding of 'comfortable satisfaction' was way off the mark.

I'm still struggling to understand how anyone would need a drug to be actually tested before being comfortably satisfied that it is what the people who made it, bought it, and compounded it said it was??

Seems strange to me. And clearly shows I'm out of my depth on how this shit all works.

because they are not supposed to catch them. They are supposed to give them an out, in any possible way.

 

[threesixpio]

And the tribunal found that Alavi compounded 'the mystery drug that everyone thought was TB4' as TB4.



To be fair, the Tribunal didnt consider if 'the mystery drug that Dank, Alavi, some Chinese Biochem company and Charters considered to be TB4' was given to the players, as there was no need.

Weirdly, it did find that Dank and co covered their tracks afterwards with lies and forged documents.



Comfortable satisfaction is the second highest burden of proof that exists, after 'beyond reasonable doubt' Briginshaw levels of proof is rarely applied in civil matters (although I did win a case on it a few weeks back in my personal work).

Barring criminal matters, the lions share of all other areas of law (contract, torts, etc) are determined on the much lower 'balance of probabilities' as are most defenses in criminal matters.

Ha ha. I love how after months and months Bombers supporters have argued comfortsble satisfaction is a high burden - now after a win its really low.

To me this shows ASADA cannot run a circumstancial case without subpoeana powers. Get Alavi, Dank and Charters in the box and this case gets a better answer (which still might be not guilty but a far more certain testing of facts).

 

[jmac70]

I don't think you quite have your head around this. We're not talking about choosing Panodol or Nurofen and taking a pack off the shelf at Coles. These are substances that are produced via compounding. It's like me asking you to gather ingredients and make Panadol yourself, and then convince me it is actually Panadol, absolutely identical in a chemical sense. Without testing it.

Such dodgy supply chains were used and the substance was never tested properly post compounding. Nobody knows wtf it really was in its final chemical form.

ASADA didn't have the evidence to prove it was TB4 in a chemical sense, let alone if it went to Essendon and was given to players.

Comfortable satisfaction is a purposefully low burden of proof. There is no reasonable way these ridiculous cases could have been proven even at that level, nor should they even have been prosecuted. That's a question for the thoroughly moronic and incompetent Mr McDevitt.

Club sanctions were appropriate here and that's what happened.

Do you think Hird asked Dank what he was injecting into the players?

 

[Armchair Critic]

I can understand you attempting to be a nasty pasty, with your huge investment and all, many many thousands of posts, what stage in the grieving process do you think you are up to ?.

No I am not trying to be nasty Phil ,if you honestly believe the Essendon players were hounded by ASADA then the reality of a real investigation would scare the shit out of you

I have been at acceptance that the players were found not guilty since the moment the verdict was handed down. I thought that was obvious from my posting since but feel free to believe what you like.

I am happy to cop shit about my views over the past 3 years,Essendon fans deserve to have their fun

 

[Ron The Bear]

I don't think you quite have your head around this. We're not talking about choosing Panodol or Nurofen and taking a pack off the shelf at Coles. These are substances that are produced via compounding. It's like me asking you to gather ingredients and make Panadol yourself, and then convince me it is actually Panadol, absolutely identical in a chemical sense. Without testing it.

Karmichael Hunt should've used that defence.

"While Mr Hunt may have thought he was purchasing cocaine, paid the going rate for cocaine, distributed it to friends & associates as cocaine and snorted it like cocaine, the court is not comfortably satisfied that he did in fact purchase cocaine. Case dismissed!"

 

[mxett]

No I am not trying to be nasty Phil ,if you honestly believe the Essendon players were hounded by ASADA then the reality a a real investigation would scare the shit out of you

I have been at acceptance that the players were found not guilty the moment the verdict was handed down. I thought that was obvious from my posting since but feel free to believe what you like.

I am happy to cop shit about my views over the past 3 years,Essendon fans deserve to have their fun

This is an internet forum for crying out loud. If you cant express you vews on here where can you? I dont think anyone deserves to cop shit over their views. Well maybe except for Echols. And throw in McAddam too.

 

[Broken_Chairs]

I was astonished to read in this article from The Age that it appears the batch was tested;


" evidence was presented and dissected about the molecular weight of the Alavi batch. ASADA had gained evidence from the Bio21 Institute at Melbourne University, which had measured the molecular weight of the relevant batch via a mass spectrometer. Two of Alavi's staff had delivered the batch to Bio21, before it was sent to Dank.

Bio21, too, wouldn't testify, but ASADA gained the results. ASADA sought expert evidence from Handelsman, who said the finding matched the parameters of the molecular weight of TB-4 - it was in the vicinity - and he added that it could not be the legal thymosin alpha or thymomodulin."


The chances of another legal substance being this close in molecular weight to TB4 would be very high. If it wasn't TB4 it would be prohibited under S0 as an experimental unknown substance.

For some reason the tribunal seems to have given this evidence no weighting at all ?

Yeah this reeks.

Also why the **** wouldn't bio21 testify?

 

[Proper Gander]

did I hear that the burden "comfortable satisfaction" was between civil burden balance of probabilities and the criminal burden?

the way they interpreted "comfortable satisfaction" was pretty lax and uncomfortable. Why dont they just lump ASADA with the criminal burden. If anyone knows cycling, and how the d'affaire Landis went down, they will know that even with positive tests and well funded defense, the urine tests can quickly be undermined too, its a slippery slope.

the players indeed had agency, in this country, they had agency, the players as pro sports automatons, are not supposed to invoke this agency, or, they are, but they are to adopt professional sportsperson agency, and take everything and anything to make them better players on the field.

I think I love you and want to have your babies but I am a bit sozzled so...

 

[Chameleon75]

so ronery

I had an image of rose hancock drunk on a bench in south yarra upon reading this

 

[threesixpio]

This is an internet forum for crying out loud. If you cant express you vews on here where can you? I dont think anyone deserves to cop shit over their views. Well maybe except for Echols. And throw in McAddam too.

Echols hasn't got a legal background but has been consistent in saying this all looks very fishy (to say the least). That report says two things (a) ASADA failed to meet the burden of proof with the evidence they could present (b) there was likely an intention at least on the part of Danks to use TB4. A combination of AndrewB and Echols is not far from an accurate viewing of this saga in my view

 

[threesixpio]

Echols hasn't got a legal background but has been consistent in saying this all looks very fishy (to say the least). That report says two things (a) ASADA failed to meet the burden of proof with the evidence they could present (b) there was likely an intention at least on the part of Danks to use TB4. A combination of AndrewB and Echols is not far from an accurate viewing of this saga in my view

AndrewB re the burden of proof etc

 

[ScreenDoorSlams]

Don't WADA sort of have to appeal this verdict ? Otherwise, this tribunal has just delivered THE template for running a PED program. Throw away all your documentation, ensure that just one link in your supply chain keeps quiet, and the circumstantial bar has been set so high (save seizing the syringe from the athlete's backside) no case will ever succeed.

In this case I thought that ASADA may not quite have reached the bar to get a guilty verdict, I was awaiting (and assumed) a 'smoking gun'. But going by Whateley's distillation, even a smoking gun wouldn't have sufficed. All that is required is to throw some evidentiary shade on a a single link in the supply chain. Fine in a murder trial, but when the object of the statute is the integrity of a sport, I thought that it had been agreed it was in the public interest that a lower standard applied.

Obviously not, so start googling those websites boys, it's open season.

 

[Moquo]

Wow, that's it folks. Not a chance in hell an appeal is coming after hearing how badly the case failed

So there you have it, Guaranteed to appeal!

 

[Mounzer11]

yep i have had better analogy, fair enough, i have felt all through this that rather than Essendon be given a fair trial they were strung drawn and quartered and considered guilty, and the HTB was quite frankly disgraceful

IMO people have expected the players to prove innocence rather than the normal rules we expect and that is they must be proven guilty

Mate, the judgement stated that they believed Dank set out to inject TB4 into the players. Do you not think that was worth investigating? Do you not think for the good of sport that it needed to be tested?

 

[Cylon7]

I was astonished to read in this article from The Age that it appears the batch was tested;


" evidence was presented and dissected about the molecular weight of the Alavi batch. ASADA had gained evidence from the Bio21 Institute at Melbourne University, which had measured the molecular weight of the relevant batch via a mass spectrometer. Two of Alavi's staff had delivered the batch to Bio21, before it was sent to Dank.

Bio21, too, wouldn't testify, but ASADA gained the results. ASADA sought expert evidence from Handelsman, who said the finding matched the parameters of the molecular weight of TB-4 - it was in the vicinity - and he added that it could not be the legal thymosin alpha or thymomodulin."


The chances of another legal substance being this close in molecular weight to TB4 would be very high. If it wasn't TB4 it would be prohibited under S0 as an experimental unknown substance.

For some reason the tribunal seems to have given this evidence no weighting at all ?

Molecular weight of TB4 is 4963.55 Da.
So what legal/not banned substances are close to this weight?

 

[Broken_Chairs]

Molecular weight of TB4 is 4963.55 Da.
So what legal/not banned substances are close to this weight?

Not any other form of Thymosin

I wonder how some are feeling about that photo of "thymodulin" now

A photo taken by an essendon employee no less. God this whole thing stinks.

 

[Armchair Critic]

This is an internet forum for crying out loud. If you cant express you vews on here where can you? I dont think anyone deserves to cop shit over their views. Well maybe except for Echols. And throw in McAddam too.

That is sort of my point Mxett, Phils believes I have a stake in this due to the fact I post on an internet forum , besides on here and twitter I have never even talked about the issue to Essendon fans.

I don't mean copping shit like personal attacks but Essendon fans gloating and rubbing it in is well and truly fair game.