Whateley's wrap

[mxett]

That is sort of my point Mxett, Phils believes I have a stake in this due to the fact I post on an internet forum , beside on here and twitter I have never even talked about the issue to Essendon fans.

I don't mean copping shit like personal attacks but Essendon fans gloating and rubbing it in is well and truly fair game.

I have no issue with your views. Theyre yours and youre perfectly entitled to them. Some of them I agree with

 

[Bunk Moreland]

I absolutely understand how the tribunal reached their conclusion in a legal sense, but if Essendon fans even have a modicum of common sense they would understand and accept that it is likely that TB4 was actually used on the players and stop criticising ASADA and McDevitt for investigating the injection program. Charters intended on sourcing the components for TB4, Alavi believed he was compounding it and Dank contacted Alavi about acquiring it and yet the tribunal could not be comfortably satisfied that any of this happened because of the disgraceful records kept by Essendon, a questionable chain of custody and the unreliability of those involved. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck: it's a duck! But because the duck is unreliable and it doesn't have a birth cerificate or any form of I.D we're not comfortably satisfied that it is a duck. Don't you or your fellow fans understand how ridiculous that sounds? It's not a low standard of proof, it's higher than the balance of probabilities, and on the balance of probabilities these things happened. Yet there are still some who shout that Essendon are completely innocent in the whole scandal and it's ASADA who should be condemned for running a completely legal investigation into doping violations in an attempt to keep the sport clean and on a level playing field; it's utterly nonsensical.

I don't accept it was likely at all.

It was a disastrous program ran by idiots who I don't think even knew themselves what they were dealing with.

But at an individual player level these charges were an absolute ****ing joke. They should never have been pursued, the bloody minded stupidity of people like McDevitt ensured that for whatever reason they were. The evidence is not and never was there to convict players. It was rightly thrown out of the tribunal and now they're walking around sooking about things the AFL told us about and penalised us for 18 months ago. The correct approach here was club penalties.

People think "it's likely" because they've been dragged around by the nose by ASADA and a rabid media keen to squeeze every last inch out of it. Everyone just wanted it to happen so badly and ASADA and media trolls kept telling them it would.

The club ****ed up, were handed the biggest penalties in football history, and played on. All ASADA has done since is trivialise with their pathetic attempt to appear relevant.

 

[Armchair Critic]

I have no issue with your views. Theyre yours and youre perfectly entitled to them. Some of them I agree with

For the fans like you @Lance_Uppercut, Donsrule Bunk ( There are others whom I can't remember ) who have been willing to come in here and take it for the whole period I am actually happy for you guys. You never ran and hid from it , you took it and came back nearly every day. You have to respect that

Don't get me wrong though , I still want the Swans to destroy you guys on the weekend.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

I don't accept it was likely at all.

It was a disastrous program ran by idiots who I don't think even knew themselves what they were dealing with.

But at an individual player level these charges were an absolute ******* joke. They should never have been pursued, the bloody minded stupidity of people like McDevitt ensured that for whatever reason they were. The evidence is not and never was there to convict players. It was rightly thrown out of the tribunal and now they're walking around sooking about things the AFL told us about and penalised us for 18 months ago. The correct approach here was club penalties.

People think "it's likely" because they've been dragged around by the nose by ASADA and a rabid media keen to squeeze every last inch out of it. Everyone just wanted it to happen so badly and ASADA and media trolls kept telling them it would.

The club stuffed up, were handed the biggest penalties in football history, and played on. All ASADA has done since is trivialise with their pathetic attempt to appear relevant.

If You really believed that, I don't reckon you'd still be on here trying to convince others of it.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

If You really believed that, I don't reckon you'd still be on here trying to convince others of it.

Yes, us Essendon supporters should just stroll off after the immeasurable levels of horseshit spewed on here for two years.

This place is now hilarious, that's why people are still here.

 

[mxett]

For the fans like you @Lance_Uppercut, Donsrule Bunk ( There are others whom I can't remember ) who have been willing to come in here and take it for the whole period I am actually happy for you guys. You never ran and hid from it , you took it and came back nearly every day. You have to respect that

Don't get me wrong though , I still want the Swans to destroy you guys on the weekend.

and I think you will. In fact the hate directed at Essendon if we won would rival the 31st from Sydney fans anyway

 

[fabulousphil]

If You really believed that, I don't reckon you'd still be on here trying to convince others of it.

You ever met some mormons, most are lovely guys BTW

 

[Dave]

Its lonely being a dictator

 

[threesixpio]

For the fans like you @Lance_Uppercut, Donsrule Bunk ( There are others whom I can't remember ) who have been willing to come in here and take it for the whole period I am actually happy for you guys. You never ran and hid from it , you took it and came back nearly every day. You have to respect that

Don't get me wrong though , I still want the Swans to destroy you guys on the weekend.

Entree for round 2

 

[Dave]

I can understand you attempting to be a nasty pasty, with your huge investment and all, many many thousands of posts, what stage in the grieving process do you think you are up to ?.

2.

 

[Armchair Critic]

I don't accept it was likely at all.

It was a disastrous program ran by idiots who I don't think even knew themselves what they were dealing with.

But at an individual player level these charges were an absolute ******* joke. They should never have been pursued, the bloody minded stupidity of people like McDevitt ensured that for whatever reason they were. The evidence is not and never was there to convict players. It was rightly thrown out of the tribunal and now they're walking around sooking about things the AFL told us about and penalised us for 18 months ago. The correct approach here was club penalties.

People think "it's likely" because they've been dragged around by the nose by ASADA and a rabid media keen to squeeze every last inch out of it. Everyone just wanted it to happen so badly and ASADA and media trolls kept telling them it would.

The club stuffed up, were handed the biggest penalties in football history, and played on. All ASADA has done since is trivialise with their pathetic attempt to appear relevant.

I think you are being unfair in that regard. I would say his comments about this are directly related to the decision released by the tribunal.The charges were against the players and the tribunal did not even have to bring the club into it but they did, it was significant it was included.

I am also not going to blame ASADA for going ahead with charges after being given the go ahead by Richard Young. Prosecutions fail all the time , do you honestly think McDevitt went into this thinking the charges were going to fail knowing the ramifications that would come from it.

People also forget that the 132 page report that has been released is only the first report, there will be one released on Dank too which will have much more juicy stuff in it . Hopefully it gets leaked

 

[kangaspurs]

I don't accept it was likely at all.

It was a disastrous program ran by idiots who I don't think even knew themselves what they were dealing with.

But at an individual player level these charges were an absolute ******* joke. They should never have been pursued, the bloody minded stupidity of people like McDevitt ensured that for whatever reason they were. The evidence is not and never was there to convict players. It was rightly thrown out of the tribunal and now they're walking around sooking about things the AFL told us about and penalised us for 18 months ago. The correct approach here was club penalties.

People think "it's likely" because they've been dragged around by the nose by ASADA and a rabid media keen to squeeze every last inch out of it. Everyone just wanted it to happen so badly and ASADA and media trolls kept telling them it would.

The club stuffed up, were handed the biggest penalties in football history, and played on. All ASADA has done since is trivialise with their pathetic attempt to appear relevant.

People believe it's likely becasue its common sense and they're not blinded by their loyalty to the club. To claim they believe its likely becasue of the media is rubbish when most of it has been peddling ASADA as the bad guy when they're anything but.

The Chinese company, Charters, Alavi and Dank all believed they were working with TB4 and it's components; the players signed a consent form that they will be injected with 'Thymosin,' and it's been confirmed that the substance was not Thymosin-alpha, those are the facts. Now without peddling ridiculous bias, please tell me how you think it's unlikely that they were injected with TB4?
The reality is the system didn't allow ASADA to legally force relevant parties to speak under oath to prove their case. It's not ASADA's fault for pursuing this and noone should be outraged by this: it's their responsibility to chase cheats, which in this situation it's likely that Essendon were.

 

[threesixpio]

People believe it's likely becasue its common sense and they're not blinded by their loyalty to the club. To claim they believe its likely becasue of the media is rubbish when most of it has been peddling ASADA as the bad guy when they're anything but.

The Chinese company, Charters, Alavi and Dank all believed they were working with TB4 and it's components; the players signed a consent form that they will be injected with 'Thymosin,' and it's been confirmed that the substance was not Thymosin-alpha, those are the facts. Now without peddling ridiculous bias, please tell me how you think it's unlikely that they were injected with TB4?
The reality is the system didn't allow ASADA to legally force relevant parties to speak under oath to prove their case. It's not ASADA's fault for pursuing this and noone should be outraged by this: it's their responsibility to chase cheats, which in this situation it's likely that Essendon were.

It kinda is their fault because they're meant to know the system.

 

[threesixpio]

People believe it's likely becasue its common sense and they're not blinded by their loyalty to the club. To claim they believe its likely becasue of the media is rubbish when most of it has been peddling ASADA as the bad guy when they're anything but.

The Chinese company, Charters, Alavi and Dank all believed they were working with TB4 and it's components; the players signed a consent form that they will be injected with 'Thymosin,' and it's been confirmed that the substance was not Thymosin-alpha, those are the facts. Now without peddling ridiculous bias, please tell me how you think it's unlikely that they were injected with TB4?
The reality is the system didn't allow ASADA to legally force relevant parties to speak under oath to prove their case. It's not ASADA's fault for pursuing this and noone should be outraged by this: it's their responsibility to chase cheats, which in this situation it's likely that Essendon were.

That said by running it they might illuminate the shortcomings of the system (hopefully)

 

[BlueWorld]

In more seriousness though, i was pretty sure Hird and the players were unfairly smeared and i could not lose.

So what did you think of the tribunal's assessment of the EFC's deplorable lack of record keeping? Another stitch up?

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Yes, us Essendon supporters should just stroll off after the immeasurable levels of horseshit spewed on here for two years.

This place is now hilarious, that's why people are still here.

Yeah, I'm sure that's why you're still here arguing.

 

[expires]

Phil,

I have always respected, although disagreed with, your position on this issue but the analogy above is pretty poor.

If Dappper had ten friends who testified that he was at a party when the crimes were committed and there were photos of him at the party, perhaps with a clocki the background even, then I imagine the case against him would not be pursued. But if his friends could only say that they think he was at the party but couldn't be sure and investigators had pictures of him in the vicinity of the crimes then there would be grounds for investigating further.

My point here is that neither Essendon nor the players could provide information on what the players were injected with, despite them be required to maintain this information. With this in mind I think ASADA were correct to pursue this matter as far as they did. I also think they should appeal the decision.

Regards

S. Pete

Think it was the Essendon lawyer yesterday who said it was known what the players were injected with. It was on the consent forms. AOD, tribulus and a few other supplements. What wasn't known was if items not on the consent forms were used. And there just wasn't sufficent records to show there wasn't. The players consented to certain supplements, question arose as to whether they were given more than what they consented to. They needed records to match the consent forms to demonstrate a definite no and the records weren't up to scratch.

The only positive to come out of the tribunal is a further emphasis on the necessity of records. A Richmond poster (rfctiger1974) has good wisdom on this side of things. But basically asada should never have issued infractions on suspicion. As the tribunal finding says "its possible" and concludes to many leaps of faith to be probable.

 

[Parkerman]

I have two questions.

1. Have the EFC players given permission for all this to be made public?

2. What's the point of Robbo?

 

[fabulousphil]

In no way do i dispute that i am irrational, illogical and petty, but when you back a winner who gives

Gosford race 7 pinball lass, my tip for the week and has been injected with TB4 left over

In all seriousness though, that is a good tip.

In more seriousness though, i was pretty sure Hird and the players were unfairly smeared and i could not lose.

I have another tip, don't back that horse, McDonald has rode at least 2 winners at Gosford today, this was not one of them.

Think it ran 5th

that TB4 is shit stuff

 

[threesixpio]

Think it was the Essendon lawyer yesterday who said it was known what the players were injected with. It was on the consent forms. AOD, tribulus and a few other supplements. What wasn't known was if items not on the consent forms were used. And there just wasn't sufficent records to show there wasn't. The players consented to certain supplements, question arose as to whether they were given more than what they consented to. They needed records to match the consent forms to demonstrate a definite no and the records weren't up to scratch.

The only positive to come out of the tribunal is a further emphasis on the necessity of records. A Richmond poster (rfctiger1974) has good wisdom on this side of things. But basically asada should never have issued infractions on suspicion. As the tribunal finding says "its possible" and concludes to many leaps of faith to be probable.

Which form of Thymosin was used?

 

[threesixpio]

Think it was the Essendon lawyer yesterday who said it was known what the players were injected with. It was on the consent forms. AOD, tribulus and a few other supplements. What wasn't known was if items not on the consent forms were used. And there just wasn't sufficent records to show there wasn't. The players consented to certain supplements, question arose as to whether they were given more than what they consented to. They needed records to match the consent forms to demonstrate a definite no and the records weren't up to scratch.

The only positive to come out of the tribunal is a further emphasis on the necessity of records. A Richmond poster (rfctiger1974) has good wisdom on this side of things. But basically asada should never have issued infractions on suspicion. As the tribunal finding says "its possible" and concludes to many leaps of faith to be probable.

And how come your Captain said he didn't know what he took? Come off it

 

[threesixpio]

Think it was the Essendon lawyer yesterday who said it was known what the players were injected with. It was on the consent forms. AOD, tribulus and a few other supplements. What wasn't known was if items not on the consent forms were used. And there just wasn't sufficent records to show there wasn't. The players consented to certain supplements, question arose as to whether they were given more than what they consented to. They needed records to match the consent forms to demonstrate a definite no and the records weren't up to scratch.

The only positive to come out of the tribunal is a further emphasis on the necessity of records. A Richmond poster (rfctiger1974) has good wisdom on this side of things. But basically asada should never have issued infractions on suspicion. As the tribunal finding says "its possible" and concludes to many leaps of faith to be probable.

But agree with your view that ASADA probably shouldn't have issued given the problems with the Charter and Alavi evidence

 

[andrewb]

I don't accept it was likely at all.

It was a disastrous program ran by idiots who I don't think even knew themselves what they were dealing with.

But at an individual player level these charges were an absolute ******* joke. They should never have been pursued, the bloody minded stupidity of people like McDevitt ensured that for whatever reason they were. The evidence is not and never was there to convict players. It was rightly thrown out of the tribunal and now they're walking around sooking about things the AFL told us about and penalised us for 18 months ago. The correct approach here was club penalties.

People think "it's likely" because they've been dragged around by the nose by ASADA and a rabid media keen to squeeze every last inch out of it. Everyone just wanted it to happen so badly and ASADA and media trolls kept telling them it would.

The club stuffed up, were handed the biggest penalties in football history, and played on. All ASADA has done since is trivialise with their pathetic attempt to appear relevant.

I agree with all of this.

I'm quite disgusted that McDevitt comes out with lines about player welfare and pin cushions and all that sort of shit when it's the players that he's prosecuting, not the club.

If you want to go the club, go the ****ing club. Don't lose a case that you dragged out for a year and a half longer than it needed to be and then say that you care about player welfare.

w***er.

 

[DonsRule]

I think you are being unfair in that regard. I would say his comments about this are directly related to the decision released by the tribunal.The charges were against the players and the tribunal did not even have to bring the club into it but they did, it was significant it was included.

I am also not going to blame ASADA for going ahead with charges after being given the go ahead by Richard Young. Prosecutions fail all the time , do you honestly think McDevitt went into this thinking the charges were going to fail knowing the ramifications that would come from it.

People also forget that the 132 page report that has been released is only the first report, there will be one released on Dank too which will have much more juicy stuff in it . Hopefully it gets leaked

I may be biased here.

I think McDevitt was expecting players to accept the deal.

I think he knew there was a flaw in the case. IMO he knew it would struggle at the tribunal so the media roadshow was used to pressure the players to accepting.
They called the bluff, from their I think they were stuck, how does he explain dropping charges when the players did not even answer the SCN?

I'm far from saying he had no evidence, he did of that I am sure but I do think he knew there was a flaw in the case. That the tribunal would struggle to overcome it.

I think he was likely stuck too when Young and Downes likely said there was a possible case (we don't know the strength of their advice - much the same as you rightly point out we don't know what the full ASADA verdict says, a few tadbits can paint a picture to suit)

I think if ASADA dropped the charges before the tribunal without an answer to the SCN, lawyers would probably have a look at what happened.

 

[Crankyhawk]

yep i have had better analogy, fair enough, i have felt all through this that rather than Essendon be given a fair trial they were strung drawn and quartered and considered guilty, and the HTB was quite frankly disgraceful

IMO people have expected the players to prove innocence rather than the normal rules we expect and that is they must be proven guilty

Expecting athletes to prove innocence in ped cases has been the norm. Key difference is there's usually a positive test. But I think there's also been more cynicism about sportspeople and we the public more prepared to assume the worst.